http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti...m.asp?Item=134414614

He is asking for help in id or any info ,,

Have never seen the barrels banded like that?

16x16x 7.57?

My guess is the barrels were shortened. This could probably be confirmed by whether the shotgun barrels have chokes or not.

Pretty banged up, I hope his reserve isn't too much above what the current bid is ($852) if he wants to sell it.

Never seen a front band like that my self, still I have held a few drillings even in my short time,

besides that my mom taught me to be still and quiet unless I had something nice/good to say.

Best regard Chris

Neither have I...

However, the gun looks exactly like my father's SxS Sauer & Sohn Suhl shotgun! Lines of the stock, the trigger guard and forend, and the font of the text on the gun number.
Upon seeing the "Krupp Stahl" text on the barrels I'm sure it's a Suhl made; whether Sauer or other brand I could not vouch for.
As I read an article last winter on the Suhl guns, I'm even less sure. You see, quite a lot of the records were lost during or shortly after WWII, and also the factory suffered from WWI! So the make can be pretty much anything.

The marking 7,8 suggests 8x57IR, i.e. the smaller .318" diameter 8mm flanged Mauser prior to the 8,2mm (.323") S bullet called 8x57IRS (or JRS).

The barrel band looks interesting, but the barrels don't appear to be cut. The finish is far too nice for to that end, and also the band looks to be very nicely fitted.
My guess would be that it's been brought home by one of the GIs after either World War.

- Lars

Lars- do you think we read the same magainze,

Vapentidningen? Btw I agree with you on the rest of the points that you make, that looks like a Suhl made drilling and the barrel ought to slug out to 318 or there abouts.

Best regards Chris

I'm certainly not arguing, but my guess that the barrels were cut is based on the band, which, like everyone else I haven't seen before. I also think the cutting, if any, was done in Germany prior to being "Americanized". Again, the easiest way to PROBABLY determine whether the cutting theory is true or not is to check the chokes or lack thereof. Very few if any drillings are/were made with no choke in both barrels. If it has chokes, it was not cut.

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
Lars- do you think we read the same magainze,

Vapentidningen?

Japp - det gör vi!

quote:

Btw I agree with you on the rest of the points that you make, that looks like a Suhl made drilling and the barrel ought to slug out to 318 or there abouts.

Best regards Chris

Indeed.
I consider this an "easy one" - have a look at what Vegard Dino usually posts! I haven't the faintest idea where he finds the oddities he asks about. But that's what the forum is for!

- Lars/Finland

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I'm certainly not arguing, but my guess that the barrels were cut is based on the band, which, like everyone else I haven't seen before. I also think the cutting, if any, was done in Germany prior to being "Americanized". Again, the easiest way to PROBABLY determine whether the cutting theory is true or not is to check the chokes or lack thereof. Very few if any drillings are/were made with no choke in both barrels. If it has chokes, it was not cut.

Hard to argue against that.
Additionally, if the barrels have been cut in Germany (that's what I'd presume in this case), it would also explain the nice finish that the gunsmith then would have applied to his work.
I still find the band odd on a drilling!

- Lars

PS. Just "whether"; not "whether or not". "Whether" implies "or not".
Sorry, I love to nit-pick....
"A pedant is a person whose quibbling irritates sane people."

This gun increasingly intrigues me.

Have a look at the proof marks.
There's a plethora of them on the gun!
Many are East German from the 1950's - certainly wouldn't suggest a WWI or WWII GI "import".
The proof mark with the W (pic. #32) means choke-bore barrel mark (which of course doesn't mean to day that the barrels may not have been subsequently cut).
In the same pic. the stamp with the S suggests black powder proof!
In pic. #38 you can see the "crown" and the letter N - again an East German proof mark, this one for smokeless powder.
Then, again: another source suggests these are German pre-WWII proof marks: German Guns. Go figure!
Some of the proof marks are very hard to read - could there be some Austrian ones, as well?
In summary I think we can conclude that the gun has been proofed for black powder (originally?) and Nitro powder (later?) which suggests quite an old piece.

The circled 16 means the shot barrels' gauge.

Thinking of the 20" barrels (if that piece of info is correct), I'd tend to agree with Gatogordo, again. I haven't seen that short barrels on a drilling before.
However, the proof marks do indicate choked barrels so if, indeed, they are not choked, they have been cut.

Hm, should we move this entire thread to the gun collection forum?

- Lars

While I am not an expert on Drillings I am a serious student.

Looks to me like the barrels have been shortened, and the stock might have some splitting issues because of the "bolts" throught the grip.

quote:

Originally posted by Schauckis:


The marking 7,8 suggests 8x57IR, i.e. the smaller .318" diameter 8mm flanged Mauser prior to the 8,2mm (.323") S bullet called 8x57IRS (or JRS).

- Lars

Just to "muddy" the waters a bit, i have a drilling marked 7.8x57, same as the drilling in this thread. I cerosafed the chamber and a few inches of the bbl., and it meqasured .323". I use .323" bullets, loaded to full power loads, and it shoots VERRY good with the cases falling out of the chamber.

DM

I noticed that some one said that the stock looks a bit vorse for wear,

I would not even if being paid too, shoot that rifle and stock, there is a real chance of it coming apart and that does hurt.

Still it´s a interesting piece and in a country where one can have as many rifles as one pleases well I perhaps would have entertained the idea of buying it for those reasons.

A theory is that it was a childs driling hence the shortened stock and barrels and the barrel band to oftset the shift in balance,

but still that was just a an idea.

Best regards Chris

Good set of pictures there on gunbroker. This is a pre-WWII German proofed drilling, the date code of 10/-8 looks mostly like 10/28 to me but it's difficult to make out that faint digit. This would be an October, 1928 proof date. While post-1950 East German proofs look very much like pre war German proofs, the East Germans did not use the St.m.G. over bullet weight as far as I know and the date code is pretty clear.

With a 7,8mm mark over 57 it's going to be either an 8x57R/360 (less likely) or an 8x57R Mauser of one bore size or another - 7,8mm as a bore diameter (not groove) could be either, but I'd be surprised if it measured a full 'S' bore .323". Most of the 'J' bore barrels I've measured have been very close to .320".

I've never seen a banded muzzle like that either, but whoever did it, whether original or cut, did not do that great a job at fitting the keel that finishes off the muzzle end of the barrels. I'd vote they were cut, but as mentioned above it should be easy to determine if the crown-over-W barrel has any choke or not.

The forend wood has been mostly replaced and if it weren't for the fairly good inletting job at the head of the action I'd be tempted to say the buttstock has been replaced also.

This was once a fairly decent gun; too bad it has so many issues now.

It looks to me like a re-habbed basket case. The reserve must be way too high, IMO, as the current bid is well over the gun's value right now.

People don't realize the expense in fixing up something like this drilling...and you still have something less than desirable. It was once a very nice drilling, but it fell on hard times.

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

Originally posted by Schauckis:


The marking 7,8 suggests 8x57IR, i.e. the smaller .318" diameter 8mm flanged Mauser prior to the 8,2mm (.323") S bullet called 8x57IRS (or JRS).

- Lars

Just to "muddy" the waters a bit, i have a drilling marked 7.8x57, same as the drilling in this thread. I cerosafed the chamber and a few inches of the bbl., and it meqasured .323". I use .323" bullets, loaded to full power loads, and it shoots VERRY good with the cases falling out of the chamber.

DM

I've slugged a number of barrels with that marking that mic'd .322-.323. Even a couple hammer drillings.
I will opine that this gun has been cut. Drillings of that vintage usually had barrels well over 60mm. I would say the barrel band was applied after they had truble keeping the ribs & barrels soldered, for whatever reason. there is evidence (muzzle shot) the soldering job had failed in the past.
Even though it looks like there might be enough metal to install choke tubes, I don't like short barreled drillings (or shotguns for that matter) I would shy away from this one. Just too many "warts"

Greg

WOW!! The owner turned down the bid??? For that gun I'd have taken that in a heartbeat. This gun has been savaged over the years and is worth no more than salvage value....$$$ X the weight of the metal.

I cannot imagine a pistol grip that clunky escaping a German gun maker. The complete lack of chequering is another surprise. The design of the fore-end also seems awkward and too spindly.

Restocked in my (non-expert opinion.

The disc set strikers are a nice feature - the state of the retaining screw gives a seconds pause for thought. Some gorilla with a pocket knife has obviously felt the need to do some 'smithing'.

I fancy that this one should be retired to a nice pasture and allowed to die gracefully.

Rgds Ian

quote:

Originally posted by IanF:
I cannot imagine a pistol grip that clunky escaping a German gun maker. The complete lack of chequering is another surprise. The design of the fore-end also seems awkward and too spindly.

Restocked in my (non-expert opinion.

The disc set strikers are a nice feature - the state of the retaining screw gives a seconds pause for thought. Some gorilla with a pocket knife has obviously felt the need to do some 'smithing'.

I fancy that this one should be retired to a nice pasture and allowed to die gracefully.

Rgds Ian

I don't think there is any doubt the barrels have been shortened, probably because someone fired it with snow in the barrles and burst one or both shot barrels. Or maybe a civilian shortened them so he could protect his home while WWII was being fought. I think it was shortened in USA by a plumber!

I think you will find the rifle cartridge is 8X57JR (.318 bore)and as such it was made long before 1950, and was likely in the USA long before 1950. The markings on the barrels read Krupp-Luffstahl ( meaning Krupp AIRSTEEL). The marks are early, I have a couple with these marks, and they are 1900 or a little later, but not later than 1910. The safety is Greener, and I don't think the rifle has been re-stocked
but was sanded down when the pegs were installed in the wrist in a failed attempt to repare the broken stock re-shaping the pistol grip at the same time. The fore-wood has been repared with two pieces of wood on each side of the origenal wood. You can see what is left of the Checkering patern in the middle piece which is origenal fore-end kept so they didn't have to re-fit the Deeley latch. If you look closely you can see where an inlay has been lost from the fore-stock probably Buffalo horn.

The old piece has been abused and as someone said about worth the last bid, if everything works. I would start by haveing Briley install screw-in chokes, I would re-stock the piece myself, remove the stupid though effective creation arount the muzzles, and re-regulate the piece. All this if I had the piece already, because I wouldn't give $500 for it the way it is, and if you got it free, and had to have a smith do that work you would be better off buying a brand new one at full price! I might make a canoe gun that wouldn't be much of a loss if you capsized and lost it.