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zeal·ot /ˈzɛlət/ Show Spelled [zel-uht] Show IPA –noun 1. a person who shows zeal. zeal /zil/ Show Spelled [zeel] Show IPA –noun fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; enthusiastic diligence; ardor. Since Aaron's first post...I have been called a "zealot" many times. So much in fact...that I have researched the meaning and root many times to see if it fit. You know what...I have come to the conclusion that I am a zealot...as well as Aaron and many many others to include Mr. John Jackson of Conservation Force who have shown entusiastic diligence in trying to save lion hunting for the savation of the lion itself. Many many times...I have heard and have even been told by anti-hunters and anti-hunting organisations that they would rather see the last ele, lion, or whatever starve to death and see the species be gone from the Earth than to ever see one shot by a hunter for sport. Then I have heard here on AR by several members who will know themselves who they are that they would rather see lion hunting, ele hunting or whatever hunting go away never to return than to ever concede that any scientist was correct about how to stop a species decline. The above facts show that anti-hunters and "some" hunters are better described as idealists rather than zealots. i·de·al·ist /aɪˈdiəlɪst/ Show Spelled [ahy-dee-uh-list] Show IPA –noun 1. a person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, goals, etc. 2. a visionary or impractical person. 3. a person who represents things as they might or should be rather than as they are. Well...I think us "zealots" are the moderates here. We see that the lion MUST be a huntable species to exist in the wild. We see that the native Africans will exterminate them with poison and graze their habitat with cattle & goats when they are gone and burn the trees they lie under to make charcoal. We see that many of the governments will exploit them for every penny they can get out of them. We KNOW that the lion must have value to exist in the wild in today's Africa. However...we also see that the lion needs help. We see that there needs to be some changes in the lion hunting industry. We see that there is merit in the research on how to stop the decline of lion in the large hunting blocks. We see that if there is not some compromise and merging between science and the hunting industry...that the lion may be taken out of our hands. From my research on the word "zealot"...I think that all hunters of African Dangerous game should engage in "lion conservation zealotry" for the sake of the lion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | ||
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Lane, you also missed the more common definition... World English Dictionary zealot (ˈzɛlət) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide] — n an immoderate, fanatical, or extremely zealous adherent to a cause, esp a religious one [C16: from Late Latin zēlōtēs, from Greek, from zēloun to be zealous, from zēlos zeal ] I think many of us look at the majority of the scientists as being largely anti hunting. The real problem is we all intuitively know that even the poorly managed hunting areas are no where near as problematic as the human-lion conflicts caused by the population explosion in the Lion's range. It is somewhat galling to see all these anti hunting types jump on sport hunting as the spot that they are going to make the "final stand to preserve the african lion" while ignoring the much larger problem of poisoning, poaching, habitat destruction, etc. because they can measure the hunting offtake. Why? Because the hunters are the only ones even trying... Most of us want to look at the scientists and say, why don't you clean up the poisoning before you start telling us that "we" are the cause of the species' decline. No one has done even a half-assed job of counting lions and the number killed outside of hunting concessions and national parks. A true scientific point is that they are extrapolating where the data is inappropriate for doing so. Now, I don't have a problem with managing hunting for improvement in how the hunting is performed in relation to the good of the species. But I do think that if any African nation thinks that by toughening their hunting laws they are going to make a major impact on the population as a whole, they are misguided, and the scientists who agree with them are not doing right by the lion. The other side of the coin is that if we toughen hunting laws, and no improvement is seen what will happen next? More restriction. Despite the fact that in reality the worldwide population of Lion and hunting offtake are only very peripherally related. I understand that it is much easier to do a good scientific study in a controlled setting, and the hunting areas are controlled. The scientists want the hunters who are footing their bill for a study population to just go away and let them do their thing without touching their study population, which the better ones realize isn't going to work. Heck, we have been having a hissy fit here in Minnesota with someone studying something as mundane as black bear- and the scientist involved wants the people who own the land nearby to be prohibited from shooting "his" bears. This despite the fact that he has acclimated his study bears to people and I can't understand for the life of me what kind of meaningful data he is going to get when it is extrapolated to wild animals. So if you want to consider yourself a Zealot, go ahead. I don't think that is any more preferable to an idealist, because an idealist can be reasoned with. A zealot can't. | |||
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Where in the definition does it say that a zealot is un reasonable??? I missed it. "An idealist" by definition CANNOT be reasoned with...as if he departs from his "ideals"...he is no longer and idealist. But sir...you missed my point altogether. If you go back read through all of the pissing matches...one thing bleeds through...several people said that they would rather see hunting go away than make any concession. That is the same thing the Anti's say..."we would rather all animals die off than any be hunted". I find it a stiking resemblence. BTW...I got the zealot term hung on me I didn't brand myself with it. But I do have zeal for saving the lion AND lion hunting. I think you should too!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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And this is where I believe you and those who believe similar to you are missing the boat... ...and is where the LCTF is spot on as we KNOW that the majority of lion researchers are pro-hunting (as we have actually spoken to them) and that they realize that without the well managed hunting blocks...the lion would be much worse off. Just about all have stated that. Science, research, and proper conservation (which definitely includes hunting) is the way forward for the lion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Most folks consider a religious belief to be unchanging, and a zealot is typically religious term. I see where you get the idea that some folks are unreasonable. Some are. On both sides. In fact, I think if hunting goes in Africa, odds are the animals will shortly follow a la Kenya. Honestly, I think your heart is in the right place, but I think you tend to minimalize the relatively poorly worded, but heart felt arguments of some who don't see it your way. To be honest, you come across to me as someone who is knowledgeable, committed, and trying to be helpful. But like most surgeons a little too convinced that you are the only one who is right.  | |||
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I have been told that before. Your words are heeded. I hope you have a highly successful lion hunt. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Thanks! | |||
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BTW...Dr. Butler...on this particular subject...many more think I (actually we...LCTF) am right than those who don't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, I'm not saying your wrong, but in the way that you are presenting the situation, you are acting like some other folks don't have a legitimate argument. As an example, shooting only 6 year olds may well work. Shooting a limited quota may work. The somewhat combined Niassa system might work. But this is going to affect how many lion a year? As I see it, your main argument has been that the antis will get their way unless we do something, regardless of the science. You have said that a number of scientists while somewhat predisposed to not want hunting, realize that in the current situation, they cannot do without the hunters and more particularly, their money. I think everyone here knows that for every one lion shot legally (and that includes the immature ones) there are several, possibly several orders of magnitude more being killed illegally. Why: a. Would scientists even LOOK at shutting down hunting if it has at best a marginal impact for, and a definite negative impact if they are driven by science? b. Why should we be giving "aid and comfort" to those who want us gone? I think this is the crux of the position against those in the LCTF that many on the outside have. We need to tell them about the science, but they are scientists who know the science, and unless we keep their feet to the fire, they will not follow the science. While I am nowhere nearly as negative about what you guys are trying to do as my arguments may seem, I am saying that you need to create a bit of a stick to use against your "friendly" scientists so they can't keep playing both sides of the fence. To be honest, Dr. White is the only one of the lot that I have read who has not made some anti hunting statements (and she may have that I am not aware of...) but as you have said, I'm not particularly well read on the subject. IF this was purely a scientific endeavor, why do we need the LCTF? From what you seem to be saying here, they all agree with us, except for some "minor" quibbles about which lion are OK to shoot. I don't have a probelm with reasonable changes in the laws as long as its not a back door to a ban, a la our US alcohol and tobacco laws. To be honest, I understand the pragmatic reasons to do what you are doing. I can't argue with that. But I do wonder what kind of lion numbers we would have if we cut illegal lion kills as defined in the previous rule set by ten percent and left the current hunting situation alone, and why these bright scientists persist in chasing after the hunters when they know this. | |||
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Dr. Butler, Did you see Craig Packer, Karyl Whitman, Colleen Begg, Phillippe Chardonett, Luke Hunter, or Paula White on that ESA petition??? I'll answer for you: NO Do you think they were asked to be on that petition??? I'll answer again: Yes Do you think they even had their arm twisted to put their org's names on that petition??? I'll answer again for you: YES Why didn't they??? Cause they know that the lion needs to be a huntable species to sustain. BUT....they NEED hunting to NOT be part of the the problem to sign on completely. The LCTF is needed to show hunters that scientists are pro-hunting and with minor changes...they will be on our side. That...good Dr....is what we are about. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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If the scientist "know that the lion needs to be a huntable species to sustain", then why do their actions to keep it that way come with conditions? | |||
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Because they know that even with hunting as it is currently practiced by "some" in the industry...they will not sustain...hunting needs reform as well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Again, I am not anti modifications, but you did miss the main point I have. Non hunting lion kill is much more of a problem than hunting is in this day of government set quota. Why are the various scientists not attacking that with all the energy they can muster instead of attacking the hunting industry? Why isn't the immediate reaction when Botswana bans hunting for most species, Gee guys, that has worked so well for Kenya... Even now, with a few young cats being killed, are the lion better off in the hunting blocks or in the rest of the country? Are you willing to put up a sizable amount of money that says that in 20 years none of the folks you just named are not going to decide that hunting is a problem? Again, I don't have a problem with sound science making adjustments to hunting practices, but unpublished data, universal agreement without published data, and scientists saying that they will make the decision whether lion are placed on the US ESA strikes me as more political than scientific. Look at the mess with the Polar Bear... This all strikes me as being a bit problematic. Not that the LCTF is the problem necessarily, its the results have little to do with what some of us as moderately informed laymen have seen as being more significant issues that no one IS addressing that make me scratch my head. Can you tell me why the scientists are spending time worrying about a marginal offtake problem in the face of wholesale poaching? In these various posts with you I have suggested some of why I think this happens, and you have kept saying that all these folks are worried about is the future of the lion, and that they need to see us making improvements in order to not become our adversaries. Pray tell why there cannot be a "consensus" that they need to come up with some solutions to man-lion conflict in southern Africa rather than trying to be picky about how individual hunting blocks are being managed? I also would think that having sound scientific advisers to the wildlife authorities for quota and block management and renewal, and doing a bit of due diligence and not allowing some of the bad actors to get a concession in the first place would have been more useful than passing these laws that are more aimed at harassing hunters and making the legal ramifications of hunting potentially more problematic. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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So, you are saying that these listed scientist are willing to eliminate the only hope for the wild lion (hunting), if there is anything in that sport they consider as "unsustainable"? Surely these people are not that short sighted. | |||
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