Jolouburn,

The 500 lion that you quote being shot in South Africa every year by hunters are not wild lion, they are canned so it would make no difference to the wild population of Africa if 5 000 lion were shot in South Africa every year. You, (generic anti-hunters) need to be careful with what you are trying to say to CITES. The people who attend are not stupid. Manipulation of numbers doesn’t work; you (generic anti-hunters) tried that trick in 2004 and were left with mud on your face. But I guess that is not your aim anyhow; you just want to raise some money from the unsuspecting public.

I have just got back from a hunting trip to Pakistan. We were in the North of the country near the border of China, along the Indus River near the village of Kaigha. Here we were in pursuit of the Kashmir Markhor, an animal that is on CITES Appendix I. The mayor of the village is a colorful character by the name of Falcus. About 12 years ago he was approached by a hunting company and told that the markhor of his valley had a value to trophy sheep hunters. Before that time it was open season on the markhor and uncontrolled hunting, by the local people, was rampant. He put in measures to stop this uncontrolled killing of the markhor and gradually phased out the grazing of domestic sheep in the valley so that there would be no contact between them and the marhkor, for disease transmission reasons etc.

As you might imagine the markhor numbers flourished and they also calmed down, as the only hunting now is the occasional trophy sheep hunter. A spin-off of this is that the snow leopard numbers are also making a come back because there are now more markhor to hunt and contact with people and their sheep is minimized.

Now I ask, rhetorically, how is it that simple shepards from a remote part of the global with little outside contact and “education” can grasp this concept of placing a monetary value on a wild animal, whereas some highly educated westerners wont even entertain the idea?

Jolouburn, I asked you when you first joined this forum to watch this video http://www.hunterproud.com/?page_id=22 but I suppose a goat is just a goat and not as “glorious” as a lion?

I sometimes wonder at the incredible arrogance of the typical anti-hunter. Who do they think they are to tell another country and their people how to manage their wildlife populations and natural habitat when theirs has been turned into a parking lot? Perhaps it’s a lingering colonial mentality?

well said Zig

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well said Zig

+1

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Greed is best fought by giving the land worth. WORTH protects it just as the cattle herders protect there cattle. Cattle have worth to them...lion do not...just as grizzly did not have worth the the original Western US ranchers that settle the country. Hunting is dollars is worth.

I completely understand this and agree with it. However hunting is not the only way lions etc can bring dollars into Africa. Photo tourism is still extremely popular although i comprehend that in areas where there is lion - human conflict this doesn't really come into play. However places where human - lion conflict does occur are not the only places lion number are struggling.

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You made my point for me here. Ethical hunting gives the land worth...with out hunting...no worth...land only good for "greedy man" for livestock grazing...lion eat livestock...then exterminated as vermin...unfortunately...it IS the way it will go if your side wins.

Again i will refer back to the lions value for the photo tourist. Hunting is not the only source of income a lion provides. There should be a place for both hunting and photo tourism side by side.

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Actually the grizzly is increasing in number now...but it has limited area to live because none was set aside for hunting blocks...like Africa did...and wisely so.

Can you elaborate a little here. If the grizzly population is increasing without hunting, why would hunting be needed?

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A short (max 2 year) moratorium on lion hunting with an automatic sunset clause has been advocated by some (not necessarily me) in the hunting industry itself. For me to even think about it...it would have to have the iron-clad sunset clause.

Whilst i personally would like to see something like this would you not still end up with the same problem as if lion hunting was stopped altogether? I quote,

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The companies who lease those blocks will cease to exist as they cannot afford to pay what the government ask for them with out lions on quota. It is simple math sorry to say. Take away the lion take away the people that do the protection.

John,

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What you ask these governments to do costs money. You have lived your whole life in an area where the government has plenty of money. So much so that you have education, roads, health care, police, fire, military etc...
However these governments don't have that kind of money. They can barely afford a military and police much less anything else.

Whilst i will agree that Africa is certainly not as rich as countries such as the UK or USA i cannot possibly agree they do not have money to put towards conservation. Africa is one of those countries like many where the big chiefs sit back and get filthy rich whilst the poor get poorer. Enough said i believe.

Zig,

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Now I ask, rhetorically, how is it that simple shepards from a remote part of the global with little outside contact and “education” can grasp this concept of placing a monetary value on a wild animal, whereas some highly educated westerners wont even entertain the idea?

I don't know, you'd have to ask them. I personally have said countless times how i can see hunting is a powerful conservation tool and that hunting places monetary value on many species.

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I sometimes wonder at the incredible arrogance of the typical anti-hunter. Who do they think they are to tell another country and their people how to manage their wildlife populations and natural habitat when theirs has been turned into a parking lot? Perhaps it’s a lingering colonial mentality?

With respect Africa is not looking after its wildlife itself, is it? If they were their would be a lot less problems. What do you suggest others who care do? Sit back and watch whilst Africa destroys its wildlife? Or take some action and try to save the wildlife?

I'm often amazed by the arrogance of some hunters who believe that by hunting they are doing all they need to to save species. It's going to take far more than that if we're all honest and whilst you only see what i type here you did not see what i do in the background to try and help with / resolve other issues.

We can all sling mud around but at the end of the day we need to work together to save wildlife. I personally have learnt much here and have different opinions to when i first started posting.

Jolouburn,

Just a couple of points:

Africa is not a country, maybe this is still part of that colonial mentality?
When I use the word rhetorical it means I am not actually expecting an answer.
Most hunting areas in Africa are not suitable for photographic safaris.
Actually you will be doing Africa's wildlife a favor if you stay out, in my opinion Africa would be far better off without the influence of anti-hunters.
You made no mention of using canned lion hunting numbers as part of Africa's total lion population??

Zig,

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Africa is not a country, maybe this is still part of that colonial mentality?
When I use the word rhetorical it means I am not actually expecting an answer.
Most hunting areas in Africa are not suitable for photographic safaris.
Actually you will be doing Africa's wildlife a favor if you stay out, in my opinion Africa would be far better off without the influence of anti-hunters.
You made no mention of using canned lion hunting numbers as part of Africa's total lion population??

Point 1 - you're right it's not it's a continent. However you stated country i stated using brevity countries. Your point is?

Point 2 - always expect the unexpected.

Point 3 - i already addressed this in my reply to Ledvm. I stated photo tourism makes not one jot of difference in certain areas.

Point 4 - and you are entitled to that opinion of course. However i'm not actually an anti-hunter i am anti species going extinct due to whatever factor. I will defend your right to hunt to anyone but i will also voice my opinion if i feel that a temp ban should be put in place.

Point 5 - Lets be honest here statistics for South Africa lion trophy numbers are dubious at best. My example was not a good one.

Now could you answer my question please.

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With respect Africa is not looking after its wildlife itself, is it?

Regarding lion exports from South Africa.
CITES export records state:-

2005 - 235 wild lion exported, 211 captive / canned
2006 - 284 wild, 403 captive / canned
2007 - 414 wild, 411 captive / canned
2008 - 455 wild, 707 captive / canned
2009 - 374 wild, 696 captive / canned

Jolouburn,

Point 1. You said

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Whilst i will agree that Africa is certainly not as rich as countries such as the UK or USA i cannot possibly agree they do not have money to put towards conservation. Africa is one of those countries like many where the big chiefs sit back and get filthy rich whilst the poor get poorer. Enough said i believe.

My point? you are suggesting one size fits all. Lion populations and the challenges that they face are different in each country, some problems are more serious than other. A ban on lion hunting throughout the continent would punish countries that are making great progress with lion conservation and hunting such as Mozambique.

Point 2. That's real cute!!

Point 3. Is as I said, most hunting areas are not suitable for lion hunting and as a matter of fact the photo safari business is actually over-subscribed in Africa, a lot of photo companies are just not making it.

Point 4. I am afraid whichever way you try and cut it, you are in the anti-hunting camp, evident with the posts you make on this forum, as I have said to you before if you are raising money for LionAid then you are anti hunting, it really is that simple.

Point 5. You have been caught out before spreading falsehoods on this website when you said that the IUCN did not support lion hunting. A couple of emails to the relevant people showed that up. Below is a chart, I hope the picture loads correctly, taken from the official CITES website which shows lion trophy exports from South Africa from 2004 to 2010. CITES does not differentiate between canned and wild lion, by the way, just the gross export numbers. Your numbers are no where near what the official CITES website suggests.

Jolouburn,

If you think that somehow I made the table up then click on this link and do it yourself.

http://www.unep-wcmc-apps.org/...274&CFTOKEN=35149494

Jolouburn,

I am sorry I didn't respond to your question as to whether the country of Africa, which is bigger than China, USA, India, Western Europe and Argentina put together is looking after it's wildlife, well that is a matter of opinion. Do you measure against GDP, do you measure it against other examples such as the U.K ??Give us some idea of how we should be measuring it.

Zig,
Sorry but although I've read your post I haven't the time to address it properly right now. Let me go back tomorrow and check on my resources and get back to you. It may be Tuesday before I do as I am busy with work over next couple of days. Didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you though.
I will also respond to your other comments then.
All I can say is that if I'm wrong, I'm wrong!
My head ain't so far up my own ass that i can't admit my mistakes.

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My head ain't so far up my own ass that i can't admit my mistakes.

I believe several individuals are awaiting proof of that statement.

Jo,

It would be interesting to know where you did get your numbers from. If you are right, please let us know where you got your info from so that it can be verified. If you are wrong, I am not concerned about an apology here but it would be great if you let your faithful know as well as the general public. Perhaps a blog from Brother Pieter Kat on your official website?

Jo,

Just a couple of things on that chart showing CITES lion exports out of South Africa. This particular chart is the gross total export, you can differentiate between wild and canned when you access the data base but this chart is the total.

There is obviously a mistake in the 2007 column which reports only 2 trophies taken in that year.

"Whilst i will agree that Africa is certainly not as rich as countries such as the UK or USA i cannot possibly agree they do not have money to put towards conservation. Africa is one of those countries like many where the big chiefs sit back and get filthy rich whilst the poor get poorer. Enough said i believe."

You need to check it out in person. They don't have the funds.