Whether some of you want to hear this or not some posters here and some of the hunting industry really is it's own worst enemy!

Let's start with here!

The recent threads 'recent lion taken with / by sullivan', 'mark sullivan lions (10 pics) and 'mark sullivan lion (1 pic). I have read these with great interest and i have to say a little amazement at the pissing contest that ensued!

Putting aside my personal opinions on lion hunting i would like to put something to you that not one of you has picked up on.

Whilst you were all busy deciding who had the bigger balls you failed to recognise the impact that this potential mistake in aging could have!

If Mark Sullivan is as experienced and has the vast knowledge of lions that you all (in the main) claim and he is wrong thats a huge problem for you guys!

I'm not the only 'anti' who reads this thread and i'm sure you can imagine what antis will do with your pissing contest and the knowledge that a 'respected' PH was SIX (approx) years out on his aging!

As another point do none of you other than Ledvm et al see the bigger issue with this? What if a PH ages a lion so incorrectly it is below the age of 6? Will you still say who cares?

This could become a huge issue which effects your right to hunt lion if you don't get your house in order and sort things like this out.



Just as an aside i have noticed before that AR acknowledges holidays such as xmas etc but failed to make any mention of the first ever world lion day that occured 5 days ago!!
Just sayin!



Moving onto the hunting industry i read the other day that SCI had doubled its original donation of $10,000 to $20,000 to PHASA.

Why?

So they can run a pro hunting campaign against antis after they outed the canned hunting industry in a documentary recently shown. The outing included the fact that volunteers were paying to go to lion 'conservation' parks to help hand raise cubs in the name of conservation but were being duped as most of thos cubs were headed straight for the canned hunting industry.

Now i would have said that SCI had acted nobly if the money had been donated to campaigns to stop these things happening but nooooo the money has gone to campaigning that the hunting industry is all legit and noble!!
Laughable!

I dont expect anything but hostility from this thread but honestly if even one of you sits up and takes note that YOU and the INDUSTRY are doing harm to YOURSELVES then this will have been worth it!!

I do not think you will receive any hostility. In fact, I seriously doubt that any other member of this site will respond in any way to your observations. Mistakes are made when in the field, plain and simple. Mistakes are also made, probably such as my response to you on this subject, on internet chat rooms.

I have no desire to hunt African Lions of any age or sex, just ain't my thing, but I do whole heartedly believe, that if African Lions are declared off limits to the folks wishing to spend the money to hunt them, the folks responsible for that decision, including you and your followers, will live to see, and be responsible for the extinction of the African Lion.

It is a simple concept that when a value, monetary not intrinsic, is removed from a species and most especially a predatory species that comes into conflict with humans, up to and including preying upon humans, that species WILL BE EXTERMIONATED BY THOSE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM ON A FIRST PERSON BASIS.

This is a concept individuals such as you and those that share your beliefs, simply DO NOT Comprehend.

The people living in areas where lions are a real threat, not only to livestock, but the humans living in the area, are going to do ANYTHING NECESSARY to remove that threat. That means the lions are going to lose.

Thank you for your response.

As you say mistakes are made and i fully understand that and do not by any means expect that there will ever come a day when they're not! Everyone makes mistakes, myself included of course!

What i do find alarming about all this is the way some posters responded and behaved in the light of a possible error.

Forgive me this may become a little long winded here! I from an emotional point of view do not like hunting in any form. From a conservational point of view though i can certainly see the value in some hunting, culling etc. I understand the concept of 'if it pays it stays' and that human, animal conflict results in poaching, poisoning etc which not only damages the species aimed for but others too. I know you feel i cannot comprehend all this being what you term an anti but i do. I am lucky enough that several members here have taken the time to converse with me away from here and i have learnt an awful lot from them that to put it bluntly has me rethinking my views.

After saying all that this thread was never about whether i agree with hunting or not. Whether i agree or not is irrelevant to this thread really.

I personally cannot see the lion being uplisted anytime soon and nor can i see a ban on hunting them anytime soon either. So with that said i want / expect that the hunting industry and all those involved will hunt the lion responsibly, doing the best for its conservation!

I do not believe that just allowing the continuation of lion hunting as it stands now is doing whats best for its conservation. For me there is a lot that needs to be done / changed for hunting to be able to claim truthfully that hunting them is for the benefit of conservation.

In my opinion firstly there needs to be some studies on how many lions there really are out there, not just guestimations.

There needs to be some legal requirements that a lion hunt has to adhere to. Things such as a minimum period of observation of the lion you plan to shoot to ensure he is old enough and that he is not a pride male and has no dependant cubs.

Linking onto the one above i do not believe baiting should be allowed in lion hunting. You cannot observe or fully know a lions situation from sitting in a tree and watching it come to you to eat bait.

There should be a universal system of lion aging put in place that both PH's AND the hunter have to study and learn. I am sick of seeing people say 'if my PH says shoot, im shooting'.

There should be strict punishments for those breaking the 6 year rule. I am fully aware mistakes can be made but once can be a mistake, twice is suspicious and three times just down right couldn't care lessness.

With regards to the two above i know there is quite a lot of debate on how to age a lion and i think research is needed on this to make it as fool proof as possible.

The hunting community also needs to root out its problem hunters! Those who have no care for conservation and just want that trophy regardless of the cost. A fine example is the thread in african hunting at present, 'lion video' where the OP says 'he does not care how old the two lions in it are, if he sees them he is shooting them!'

The recent lion threads here at AR do not show the hunting community in a wholely positive light with regards to lion hunting. The pissing contest and personal hatred where the debating of the science and reasearch should be is not conducive to anyone reading here believing that the hunting community as a whole has the best interests of the lion at heart.

This is a bit rich!

Someone who so ignorant about hunting is giving us all advice on the subject!

Why don't go and tell your friends at liondaid to stop deleting our comments when we post there?

Typical bloody bunny huggers, it is alright for them to ram their convoluted views on us, but we are not allowed to state our opinions.

why be a member here if you don't like hunting ?

quote:

Originally posted by tk10ga:
why be a member here if you don't like hunting ?

That is the whole point of these idiots.

They just do not have a LIFE!

They live in such misery, as all there is no their minds is bullying others who have nothing to do with them.

Lionaid is a perfect example of them.

They get paid by well meaning, ignorant city dwellers, who think their money is going to save some poor lion somewhere, while all that money does is feed the egos of the organizers.

If lionaid had any claim to legitimacy, it had evaporated the minute they started deleting and banning us from commenting on their website.

We have no fear of them.

They are free to post here, and we are ready to answer them.

The truth is their worst enemy.

they sound like the same type of people that run green peace ....
claim to protect something but only hurt it by being ignorant . hunters do the most for wild life . they are a resources to us and not just for food . If lions have no value they'd go the way of the thylacine.