http://www.independent.co.uk/t...l-park-a8229161.html


Link has photos and article.

I scanned the article and saw no specifics on how lion hunting was prevented.

Well postoak, on the assumption that you are serious, here is the deal. There are two reasons why the locals kill lions:
1. The lions kill their livestock. Solution install metal fences instead of the traditional wooden fences. Problem solved. No need to kill lions.
2. If you are one of the 30-40 Masai that surround a lion and kill it with spears while it is trying to figure out who to attack, then you get to have a party with other villages and you get laid. Solution, just have a party with other villages, then you will probably get laid, without running the risk of being killed by a lion, or getting your balls ripped off by said lion.
It ain't rocket science.
Peter

As usual for these types of articles, it is slathered full of emotion. While I applaud the efforts to minimize HWC issues, the facts are, cats breed like cats. Cats also have a propensity to eat the low hanging fruit which is livestock - as in cows and goats which are inherently stupid and slow. The reprisal killings (mostly through the use of poison) kills far more than the offending predator. So, to suggest that legal sport hunting has anything to do with falling predator population is pure nonsense.

And to the issue of declining populations, Good luck trying to kill off predators. Historically, it has been attempted before with dismal results. It would take a large scale concerted effort to eradicate lions from Africa.

So the whole threatened/endangered talk is simply to drum up more emotions and of course more investment into conservation NGOs. After all a new, properly kitted Cruiser costs R$1,200,000 now and you must have at least half a dozen if you are to be taken seriously.

Sorry Opus1 but I have no idea what you are talking about. The article I read was about the killing of lions by the local population. Nothing to do with buying Land Cruisers. These are local people doing local things.
Are you saying that there are no threatened
or endangered species. Is it all a liberal/commie plot? Well, got to go out and shoot some passenger pigeons!
Peter.

Sorry Peter, save the hyperbole. This was a marketing and advertising piece poorly disguised as news. And yes, most of the money these NGOs raise goes to purchasing vehicles and paying cushy salaries. As I operate a community based conservation program, I see countless conservation NGOs pulling the exact same crap and they achieve fuckall at the ground level. It's called Conservation for Profit.

In regards to lion populations, they are only "endangered" by the locals that typically kill 40 for every trophy lion killed through legal hunting operations. So to even mention hunting as the reason for the decline, is marketing bullshit intended to appeal to donors.

Of course your interpretation of the article is certainly your prerogative. My prerogative is to call bullshit when I see it.

Here is their link so that you can donate - https://www.ruahacarnivoreproject.com/donate/ They will appreciate every dollar you can spare.

Opus1 I am not sure which side we are on here. I stated that the effort was to reduce the number of lions killed by the local population. Is that not true? I am not discussing the number killed through legal hunting operations. The term endangered does not distinguish between the different ways that lions are killed. It is only concerned with the number of lions now as compared with the lion population in previous years, the number needed to maintain genetic diversity, and the number needed to maintain a healthy and genetically diverse population that can survive the various pressures on their existence.
I honestly don't see why you see this article as "anti hunting", when , IMHO, most reasonable people will see it as an attempt to decrease the number of lions killed, for reasons that can be alleviated ie. the killing of domestic cattle needed by the local human population for survival. If you continue to see efforts such as these as 'anti hunting" then I will tell you now, that hunting is doomed. You can piss and moan all you want, and your post above is such an example, but lion conservation, it seems to me, is an effort to ensure the survival of the lion as a viable species in the wild, not as a way to ensure that more lions are available to be killed through hunting operations.
I am glad that you are running a "community based conservation program", and I am sure that some NGO's are more effective than others, but are you suggesting that there is in fact no problem? That lions are not endangered? That their habitat is not being encroached by people? If there is a problem, then what is your solution? More legal hunting is clearly NOT the solution as little if any of the vast amount of money spent on a lion hunt goes to the lions, unlike South Africa! I guess you don't agree that conservation and hunting are inseparable?
Peter.

As I stated above, I applaud the efforts to minimize HWC issues and anti-poaching efforts. However, the article was intended to promote a conservation NGO that is more interested in the appearances of conservation than actually achieving real results.

Many (certainly not all) conservation NGOs in Africa are thinly veiled for profit operations that promote happy talk in an effort to make money. And yes some achieve result, but many achieve nothing other than putting money in to their pockets. Virtually all of them are bloated with staff, marketing and advertising budgets, and operational expenses. Very little of the money raised ever gets to the boots on the ground. That's why they are ineffectual. But believe me, they are all driving around in new Cruisers kitted to the max. It is a common occurrence in many parts of Africa.

In regards to hunting, any real conservationist embraces hunting and the many benefits it derives for game management, community support and involvement, and wildlife protection. If an animal has no benefit to the local community it either becomes a pest or food. When that happens wildlife numbers will plummet. If you stop hunting revenues and food support, the locals will quickly decimate the wildlife.

Nuff said...

Solution install metal fences instead of the traditional wooden fences. Problem solved. No need to kill lions.

Sorry, that's a First world solution, with no understanding of the situation on the ground.

Grizz

quote:

Solution install metal fences instead of the traditional wooden fences. Problem solved. No need to kill lions.

Most livestock is taken by lions when it is out in the pasture which is unfenced and reprisals are taken by poisoning the carcass which if eaten, will kill any predator or scavenger; the concern however seems to be focused on lions only without any regard for the numerous vultures, hyenas and jackals that get eliminated in the process.

The article talks about "kill them during traditional hunts in rites of passage for warriors" .... this ritual was phased out more than 30 years ago so the author is speculating on past events which anyway did not see numerous lions being killed due to the rite.

Just to shed some clarity on this obsolete rite, all the participants in the "hunt" graduated to "manhood" .... with the unfortunate lion ending up looking like a porcupine. The "hand to hand combat" is just reading material for the gullible individual.

The NGOs and mainly the government authorities should be more concerned in educating the tribes in question on the values of conserving and co-existing with the species and, in the event of livestock being lost to predating lions, should instead be compensated for their loss.

Finally, Opus 1 is correct in his opinion on NGO participation in that the majority are utilizing funds destined for conservation to line their pockets and get a free ticket to do some game-viewing.

I read with some consternation Amy Dickman's theory on the introduction of Anatolian Shepherd dogs against lion; I lived in Turkey for 6 years and have first-hand knowledge on what the Turks called "Kurt Kopec", adorned with spiked collars, were widely used (effectively)to guard sheep from marauding wolves ... but most certainly would not stand a chance in hell against lions.

So in my opinion, even the Ruaha Carnivore Project is regurgitating some meaningless theories; Masailand which incorporates several National Parks, is the hardest hit area when it comes to lion poisoning as there are by far more Masai and cattle in bordering areas.