quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If I ever have the good fortune to shoot a male lion, I will never post a picture of the lion on AR, even if the damn thing is 12 years old without a tooth left in its head. There are too many dogs running around in the neighborhood these days who cannot resist hiking their leg and dribbling over the accomplishments of others. Makes you think twice about posting any hunt report now.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Okay, I am the one with the least amount of knowledge as far as the parameters of lion hunting goes.

My problem rests solely with the fact, that even though ethically and long time conservation goals, the lion was too young to be taken, it was still, according to the laws of the country where the hunt was conducted, a Legal lion.

It reminded me, and yes before anyone says anything, managing white tail deer is nothing like managing lions, but, it reminded me of the attitude of trophy only deer hunters here in the states, ragging on people, even young, first time hunters for killing something beneath th trophy hunters standards, even though it was a legal kill.

Hunting, and not just lion hunting, is facing extinction in its own right. We really don't need to further alienate each other if hunting is going to remain a viable undertaking for future generations.

I am not the best one to deliver this message, but it really is sometimes best to try and educate spomeone about an issue than try to force your opinions down their throat.

I know there is a better way of stating it than that, alienating people without trying to explain why there is a problem rationally, does no one any good.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I have quietly read through this section of the forum and tried to keep an open mind and learn something. As far as an age restriction goes, looking at the photos posted myself-- I can't get any better that telling the difference between a younger than 4 or older than 4 year old lion myself. The part that I find interesting is that an examination of the tooth is the best age indicator in the field. To my thinking, the only way I can be 90 to 100% positive of age, is wait until the lion is biting me and check its canines. The part that is troubling is you 'experts' are not much better than I am.

quote:
Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:



The Ph (and most all concurred) aged this lion at around 6 year old when it was taken (2005). Upon further examination of the teeth, x-ray and skull, the age estimation was set at between 4 - 5 years old!


Would be hard to pass up this guy..
Any pictures of his nose?


Ozhunter - I agree, this one would be tough to pass. I honestly believe, unless in the case of "knowing" this lion was 4-5 yrs old, no one would pass him up? As Bwana mentions, most of em thought this lion was 6 yrs old.

Express Yourself - Thanks man!!

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
www.globalhuntingresources.com
globalhunts@aol.com
303-932-0550 - office
Posts: 1505 | Location: Littleton, Colorado | Registered:

Until you get a better field apprasial for the novice, I'll listen to the PH. That however does not insure the lion is a 5 or 6 year old either. Until that happens and the laws are changed --- Lions you don't want shot will legally be shot.
I could care less about the pointy heads and the anti's, they will always want to stop hunting. The arguement to shoot older for the sake of them is lost on me.
The scientific information on why older is better however, is not lost on me and it makes for good conservation. I guess I can be with you in theroy, but you need to help on how to do it in practice in the field. Not just for the hunter but the PH too.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
It reminded me, and yes before anyone says anything, managing white tail deer is nothing like managing lions, but, it reminded me of the attitude of trophy only deer hunters here in the states, ragging on people, even young, first time hunters for killing something beneath th trophy hunters standards, even though it was a legal kill.

quote:

Until you get a better field apprasial for the novice, I'll listen to the PH.

quote:

I would like to invite all critics to post what they dislike about the discussions on shooting mature lions that have taken place on AR in the recent past. Please everyone be frank and offer up your criticism.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Lane, Aaron, you both missed my point entirely.

I appreciate the zeal with which you guys are working on this, but Lane you asked.

You are both blinding yourselves to other individuals Personal Perceptions of the entire situation.

You talk down to folks as if they were idiots and you two are rthe only enlightened individuals on the planet, Your Wrong!

quote:

I would like to invite all critics to post what they dislike about the discussions on shooting mature lions that have taken place on AR in the recent past. Please everyone be frank and offer up your criticism.

My critism was the way the original discussion/arguement was handled.

As I stated, white tails are not lions, BUT, the act of an experienced hunter, ragging on someone else's trophy that they spent money to hunt and that they are proud of, even if it is/was an unethically or poor conservation/management decision,but was done under Legal Circumstances is wrong.

Even Saeed commented that he shot lions when he first started doing safaris that he would not shoot now. Openly attacking another hunter over their choice of what they killed, especially if it was a legal taking does not help your mission.

Explaing to people, showing them what the impacts to the overall health of the species as a whole are for taking such animals, educating people without clubbing them over the head, will go a lot farther than belittling people are treating them as inferiors, simply because they may not see things just exactly the way you do.

Just like my response to Lane, he asked for it and you two act like I am an enemy or that I don't have enough intelligence to be responding.

Why would I, or anyone else that is trying to be serious about the issue and interested in seeing what is best for the future of lions and lion hunting, and supportive of you folks efforts, want to continue to do such if they are treated as mindless inferiors.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Lane, Aaron, you both missed my point entirely.

I appreciate the zeal with which you guys are working on this, but Lane you asked.

You are both blinding yourselves to other individuals Personal Perceptions of the entire situation.

You talk down to folks as if they were idiots and you two are rthe only enlightened individuals on the planet, Your Wrong!

quote:

I would like to invite all critics to post what they dislike about the discussions on shooting mature lions that have taken place on AR in the recent past. Please everyone be frank and offer up your criticism.

My critism was the way the original discussion/arguement was handled. CHC - OK, BUT THAT IS LONG SINCE OVER. SO WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT IT. I AGREE, I WAS A LITTLE OVER-BOARD AS IT PERTAINED TO THE PH IN ZAMBIA, BUT NEVER DID I SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT THE HUNTER. MY POINT IS, I HEAR YA, I APOLOGIZED FOR IT ALONG TIME AGO, NOW LET'S MOVE ON TO THE PROBLEM!

As I stated, white tails are not lions, BUT, the act of an experienced hunter, ragging on someone else's trophy that they spent money to hunt and that they are proud of, even if it is/was an unethically or poor conservation/management decision,but was done under Legal Circumstances is wrong. CHC - SORRY IF YOU SEE IT THAT WAY, BUT THAT'S YOUR OPINION. WHEN THE TAKING OF SAID "TROPHY" IS CONTRIBUTING TO THE POTENTIAL LOSS OF THE ENTIRE SPORT OF LION HUNTING/LION CONSERVATION, AND AFRICAN WILDLIFE, I BELIEVE THIS GOES WAY BEYOND RAGGING ON SOMEONE'S TROPHY. ITS NOT THAT, ITS ABOUT THE POSSIBLE AND INEVITABLE RESULTS, IF IT DOESN'T STOP.

Even Saeed commented that he shot lions when he first started doing safaris that he would not shoot now. Openly attacking another hunter over their choice of what they killed, especially if it was a legal taking does not help your mission. CHC - SHOW ME WHERE ANY OF US ATTACKED THE "HUNTER", PLEASE QUOTE US?? SECONDLY, I TOO HAVE SHOT A LION OR TWO THAT WOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE BY TODAY'S STANDARDS. BUT OVER THE PAST 5 YRS, EVERYONE, UNLESS YOU'VE HAD YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND, HAS HEARD ABOUT/LEARNED ABOUT THE ISSUE OF THE LION, AND THE ISSUE OF SHOOTING YOUNG LIONS. IF BECAUSE ITS LEGAL IS THE ONLY ARGUMENT WE HAVE, BELIEVE ME, WE WILL LOSE!

Explaing to people, showing them what the impacts to the overall health of the species as a whole are for taking such animals, educating people without clubbing them over the head, will go a lot farther than belittling people are treating them as inferiors, simply because they may not see things just exactly the way you do. CHC - AGAIN, I DO BELIEVE YOU CAN SEARCH OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS HERE ON AR, NUMEROUS THREADS REGARDING THE ISSUES FACING THE LION, REASONS FOR NOT SHOOTING YOUNG LIONS, ETC, ETC, ETC. I BELIEVE WE HAVE, AND WILL CONTINUE TO, PROVIDE EDUCATION TO ALL. I ALSO THINK THAT THE LEVEL OF SENSITIVITY THAT SOME GROWN MEN HAVE, IS A BIT HIGH!! TYPED WORDS CARRY LITTLE EMOTION/FEELING, BE THEY GOOD OR BAD. I HAVE NEVER OR WOULD NEVER WANT SOMEONE TO FEEL INFERIOR, I JUST WANT TO EDUCATE/HELP. BUT I DO THINK THAT SOME JUST GET THEIR FEELINGS HURT WAY TOO EASILY, BECAUSE THEY INTERPRIT THE MESSAGE DIFFERENTLY THAN IT WAS INTENDED. THAT'S NEITHER THE SENDER OR RECEIVER'S FAULT NECESSARILY, ITS JUST HOW IT IS.

Just like my response to Lane, he asked for it and you two act like I am an enemy or that I don't have enough intelligence to be responding. CHC - I DON'T FEEL THAT WAY AT ALL. I APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORTS, AND YOUR INTEREST IN TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUR FOR YOURSELF. REGARDLESS, LIKELY WE WILL NOT AGREE ON EVERY POINT, BUT I'LL BET YOU'LL KNOW MORE ABOUT LIONS THIS YEAR, THAN YOU DID TWO YEARS AGO. THAT CAN ONLY BE A GOOD THING!

Why would I, or anyone else that is trying to be serious about the issue and interested in seeing what is best for the future of lions and lion hunting, and supportive of you folks efforts, want to continue to do such if they are treated as mindless inferiors. CHC - I DON'T SEE ANYONE BEING TREATED AS MINDLESS INFERIORS, AND I CERTAINLY DON'T SEE YOU OR ANYONE LIKE THAT. FACT IS CHC, YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO AFRICA, AND YET, YOU ARE REALLY TAKING AN ACTIVE INTEREST IN THIS ISSUE. I FOR ONE REALLY RESPECT YOU FOR THAT, REGARDLESS IF WE DISAGREE ON SOME OF THE POINTS OR NOT. I WISH EVERYONE WOULD TAKE THE SAME INTEREST AS YOURSELF!

I WILL BE VERY MATTER OF FACT ABOUT THE ISSUE, NO BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, AND NOT MIX MANY WORDS. IT WILL BE UP TO THE READER TO UNDERSTAND THAT I AM ONLY RESPONDING, NOT BULLYING OR MIS-TREATING. BELIEVE THAT, BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU NOW, THAT'S THE CASE. I DO BELIEVE SOME GET THEIR FEELINGS HURT, BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY THEY ARE LOOKING TO INTERPRET ANY RESPONSE THAT DOES NOT AGREE WITH THEIR OWN. TO TAKE A STANCE ON AN ISSUE, OR PARTICIPATE IN A CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE, ONE MUST HAVE A LITTLE THICKER SKIN. WHEN I HEAR THINGS LIKE, "I'LL NEVER POST A HUNT REPORT AGAIN", ALL I CAN THINK OF IS A 14 YR OLD GIRL, POUTING IN HER ROOM, CAUSE SHE CAN'T USE HER CELL PHONE! COME ON, MAN UP A LITTLE BIT! HOW ABOUT THIS CONCEPT? LET'S ALL INSIST ON SHOOTING NOTHING BUT MATURE LIONS, AND THE ISSUE OF SOMEONE GETTING THEIR FEELINGS HURT OVER THEIR "HUNT REPORT" WILL NO LONGER BE AN ISSUE. SORRY CHC, I MEAN NO DISREPECT, BUT I HAVE NEVER HAD ALOT OF SYMPATHY FOR THE OVERLY SENSITIVE!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Until you get a better field apprasial for the novice, I'll listen to the PH.

Buckeye,
You better have a heart-to-heart talk with your PH then. And...all the good ones know enough to at least get you >5. And one more thing...in ALL of the instances we criticized...the PH knew they were taking a sub-adult PRIOR to the shot being fired.

We (LCTF) know that for fact in the instances we criticized. Hence...the fact that nobody told us our assessment of age was wrong in any of the arguments.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
I guess a frank discussion could be in order before booking, but I don't want to be in a situation where I'm second guessing a PH before we even start the hunt.

I would highly recommend a frank discussion before hand with your PH and your PH will appreciate it.

Some folks want a record book specimen and others like to hunt and are happy to shoot a good 'representative of the species' and later shoot a bigger one on a later hunt. From a practical standpoint you have a big uphill battle I think.
Crazyhorse used deer as a comparision. I'll do the same. Again deer are not lions. But, if I'm hunting my home state of ohio and I have a 150 class buck come past my stand--- I don't care if its 3 yrs old or 6 yrs old--- its a shooter and I'm shooting it. Yea, its a 200 class buck 2 or 3 years down the road, but its a 'Buck Ohio" deer today and the one of the biggest I would have taken in 45 years of deer hunting.

We are not citicizing trophy quality. The simple truth is that lion populations are decreasing, unlike WT deer populations, taking those younger lions are hard on the populations. That is the simple truth.

I have to believe that with the cost of lion hunting and the difficulty in shooting a lion that any full grown lion would be a trophy to a 1st time hunter --- so you are back to the PH thing again. If the PH says its a shooter-- it will be shot. I don't care if its not a record book lion on the 12th day of a 14 day hunt, as my first and probably only lion, I'll take a shooter. If the PH tells me a 3 or 4 year old is a 'representative of the species", I'm paying for his judgement so I shoot it. Do I know its not a record lion -- yes, am I happy with it-- yes, its probably one of my most valued trophies. I'll probably feel I 'earned' it hunting hard until the end of the hunt.
I appreciate that you are educating the hunter on what is a good specimen and of mature age. But until you have a means of getting the PH to tell the client--- that ones still a baby, we don't want it or legal lions start at age 4, that ones stiill under age. You will still have instances where lions you don't think should be shot will be shot and legally too.

And that is changing as we speak...partially due to the work of the LCTF.

Wether you like it or not, until the laws are changed and the PH's have a different view--- first time or hunters who 'just want a mature lion' are going to continue to do what they are now doing.

Just one last comment...a less than 5 year old lion is not a mature. And I would not call a sub-adult a representative specimen of the species.

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Until you get a better field apprasial for the novice, I'll listen to the PH.

Buckeye,
You better have a heart-to-heart talk with your PH then. And...all the good ones know enough to at least get you >5. And one more thing...in ALL of the instances we criticized...the PH knew they were taking a sub-adult PRIOR to the shot being fired.

We (LCTF) know that for fact in the instances we criticized. Hence...the fact that nobody told us our assessment of age was wrong in any of the arguments.

Well here in lies the rub. Like I stated, a novice can only judge age so well, even the experts can't be 100% and the PH wants you to fill the tag and get a larger tip.
Hopefully, you get a PH that is what you describe as a 'good one'. I guess a frank discussion could be in order before booking, but I don't want to be in a situation where I'm second guessing a PH before we even start the hunt.
Some folks want a record book specimen and others like to hunt and are happy to shoot a good 'representative of the species' and later shoot a bigger one on a later hunt. From a practical standpoint you have a big uphill battle I think.
Crazyhorse used deer as a comparision. I'll do the same. Again deer are not lions. But, if I'm hunting my home state of ohio and I have a 150 class buck come past my stand--- I don't care if its 3 yrs old or 6 yrs old--- its a shooter and I'm shooting it. Yea, its a 200 class buck 2 or 3 years down the road, but its a 'Buck Ohio" deer today and the one of the biggest I would have taken in 45 years of deer hunting.
I have to believe that with the cost of lion hunting and the difficulty in shooting a lion that any full grown lion would be a trophy to a 1st time hunter --- so you are back to the PH thing again. If the PH says its a shooter-- it will be shot. I don't care if its not a record book lion on the 12th day of a 14 day hunt, as my first and probably only lion, I'll take a shooter. If the PH tells me a 3 or 4 year old is a 'representative of the species", I'm paying for his judgement so I shoot it. Do I know its not a record lion -- yes, am I happy with it-- yes, its probably one of my most valued trophies. I'll probably feel I 'earned' it hunting hard until the end of the hunt.
I appreciate that you are educating the hunter on what is a good specimen and of mature age. But until you have a means of getting the PH to tell the client--- that ones still a baby, we don't want it or legal lions start at age 4, that ones stiill under age. You will still have instances where lions you don't think should be shot will be shot and legally too.
Wether you like it or not, until the laws are changed and the PH's have a different view--- first time or hunters who 'just want a mature lion' are going to continue to do what they are now doing.