The Right Lion

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posted

So, after several days of pics of a pride of lions at a bait site, with no evidence of cubs or noticeably pregnant/lactating females, the LCTF would put it's stamp of approval on killing the pride male?

Posts: 5235 | Registered: 30 July 2007

Ignored post by 505 gibbs posted

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posted

If the lion fits the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion...the LCTF approves.

Posts: 39309 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

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It doesn't seem to me that this scenario fits "the definition of a huntable male lion", do you agree?

Posts: 5235 | Registered: 30 July 2007

Ignored post by 505 gibbs posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
It doesn't seem to me that this scenario fits "the definition of a huntable male lion", do you agree?

Please elaborate.

Posts: 39309 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
a lion that
can be hunted without any negative eff ect on the sustainability of the local
population from which it is removed.

A lion is shot after 2-3 nights of game cam pics showing the male with females but no cubs, no one could know if the females have cubs tucked away somewhere or if the females are in an early stage of pregnancy.

quote:
To reduce risks of infanticide,
males of any age known to be heading prides or known to be part of a
coalition heading prides with dependent cubs (18 months old or less)

Once again, 2-3 nights of pics not showing cubs at a bait sight would not determine that there are not cubs.

quote:
The ideal huntable lion is an older
individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association
with any pride.

this is 1 male with females, it would seem to me that it is not too far of a jump to assume he is with them because they have innies and he has an outie, no?

quote:
For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or
pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter
foregoes taking that lion.

The scenario and lions described in the hunt report do not meet this suggestion for sure, no?

and a couple of yours

quote:
That lioness being present makes it likely that there are cubs in that pride...as she is young and vibrant and the male is none too old. So it is likely they are productive and it is going to be a waste of time to sit for that lion.

Could this exact quote not be applied to the lion killed in Mozambique?

quote:
"beyond a shadow of a doubt that the females were not at any stage of pregnancy or there were no cubs"

After a "period" you could make a likely or unlikely call.

Would this scenario not be better handled by referring to the next to the last sentence in your "definition"? "For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion."

Posts: 5235 | Registered: 30 July 2007

Ignored post by 505 gibbs posted

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posted

Lane in Red.

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
a lion that
can be hunted without any negative eff ect on the sustainability of the local
population from which it is removed.

A lion is shot after 2-3 nights of game cam pics showing the male with females but no cubs, no one could know if the females have cubs tucked away somewhere or if the females are in an early stage of pregnancy.

Brad,
The only thing you could question at this stage is whether Aaron did a good job or not at checking for cubs. It seems to me that he did.

quote:
To reduce risks of infanticide,
males of any age known to be heading prides or known to be part of a
coalition heading prides with dependent cubs (18 months old or less)

Once again, 2-3 nights of pics not showing cubs at a bait sight would not determine that there are not cubs.

The PH's knew this pride. They had it on camera before Aaron arrived. They got MANY MANY pics. Then they sat for the lion and observed the females in person as well. That seems like a reasonable effort to me. Heavy pregnant and lactating females are fairly obvious.

quote:
The ideal huntable lion is an older
individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association
with any pride.

this is 1 male with females, it would seem to me that it is not too far of a jump to assume he is with them because they have innies and he has an outie, no?

But if he is 6 or greater and has no cubs...taking him will not effect the local population.

quote:
For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or
pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter
foregoes taking that lion.

The scenario and lions described in the hunt report do not meet this suggestion for sure, no?

His maturity was not in question and they went to great effort to check for cubs. That is all that is asked.

and a couple of yours

quote:
That lioness being present makes it likely that there are cubs in that pride...as she is young and vibrant and the male is none too old. So it is likely they are productive and it is going to be a waste of time to sit for that lion.

Could this exact quote not be applied to the lion killed in Mozambique?

Brad, Here you are pulling a MSNBC liberal stunt of not posting all that I wrote. I went on to say that if you had another on bait...go there. But...if this is all you had working...you could sit and check the situation out as if the male is 6 or greater and there are NO cubs...he could be a taker.

quote:
"beyond a shadow of a doubt that the females were not at any stage of pregnancy or there were no cubs"

After a "period" you could make a likely or unlikely call.

Back to your left-wing tactics. I said only God could be beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Would this scenario not be better handled by referring to the next to the last sentence in your "definition"? "For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion."

Brad,
Again...the only beef you can have with Aaron is whether or not he did a good enough job at making sure this male was without dependent cubs. Seems to me that they made a strong effort. I assume you disagree???

Posts: 39309 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

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posted

quote:
Brad,
The only thing you could question at this stage is whether Aaron did a good job or not at checking for cubs. It seems to me that he did.

It's good to see you commit to something.

quote:
quote:
To reduce risks of infanticide,
males of any age known to be heading prides or known to be part of a
coalition heading prides with dependent cubs (18 months old or less)

Once again, 2-3 nights of pics not showing cubs at a bait sight would not determine that there are not cubs.

The PH's knew this pride. They had it on camera before Aaron arrived. They got MANY MANY pics. Then they sat for the lion and observed the females in person as well. That seems like a reasonable effort to me. Heavy pregnant and lactating females are fairly obvious.

The fact that the outfitter "knew this pride" and had observed it over a long period of time is a game changer, as I stated previously in the hunt report. However, that is not what was described by Aaron, what was said was that they had 2 nights of bait cam pics with male, females and no cubs. Aaron later changed this to 3 nights (see the report), and what I am saying is that relying solely on 2-3 nights of bait cam pics in no way shape or form establishes that there are no dependant cubs.

quote:
quote:
The ideal huntable lion is an older
individual known to be a transient, that is, no longer in breeding association
with any pride.

this is 1 male with females, it would seem to me that it is not too far of a jump to assume he is with them because they have innies and he has an outie, no?

But if he is 6 or greater and has no cubs...taking him will not effect the local population.

My only point here was that this lion did not meet the description of an "Ideal huntable lion" and you would think that founder of the LCTF would wait past day 2 of an 18 day hunt to make sure the lion was "ideal". As far as your statement, I agree that a couple of nights of bait cam pics and then sitting and seeing in person would give a PH enough info to make an age call, but it wouldn't give him enough info to determine if the feales had cubs or not.

quote:
quote:
For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or
pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter
foregoes taking that lion.

The scenario and lions described in the hunt report do not meet this suggestion for sure, no?

His maturity was not in question and they went to great effort to check for cubs. That is all that is asked.

I wouldn't call reviewing 2 nights of bait cam pics "great effort", I will say that your position is cinsistant with what I have seen you post in the past.

quote:
quote:
That lioness being present makes it likely that there are cubs in that pride...as she is young and vibrant and the male is none too old. So it is likely they are productive and it is going to be a waste of time to sit for that lion.

Could this exact quote not be applied to the lion killed in Mozambique?

Brad, Here you are pulling a MSNBC liberal stunt of not posting all that I wrote. I went on to say that if you had another on bait...go there. But...if this is all you had working...you could sit and check the situation out as if the male is 6 or greater and there are NO cubs...he could be a taker.

I disagree, Aaron didn't sit and check out the situation, he reviewed the bait cam pics, went to the bait and blew a hole in the pride male. So the second part of your statement was irrelevent.

quote:
quote:
"beyond a shadow of a doubt that the females were not at any stage of pregnancy or there were no cubs"

After a "period" you could make a likely or unlikely call.

Back to your left-wing tactics. I said only God could be beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Would this scenario not be better handled by referring to the next to the last sentence in your "definition"? "For the long-term sustainability of this valuable resource, if the maturity or pride status of a lion is in question, it is strongly encouraged that the hunter foregoes taking that lion."

Brad,Again...the only beef you can have with Aaron is whether or not he did a good enough job at making sure this male was without dependent cubs. Seems to me that they made a strong effort. I assume you disagree???

As far as my "left wing tactics", your "after a period" statement covered your "beyond a shadow of a doubt" statement, no?
As far as my "beef with Aaron", the only "beef" I have with this entire situation is that he has come on here espousing lion management, and how imortant it is that we either make sure that we are killing the right lion or err on the side of caution (as the definition states), then blows a hole in a pride male on the first night in a blind after reviewing bait cam pics from 2 previous nights with no cubs in them. When asked, his explanantion is that "he knows what he is doing", I call bullshit. Now, if that pride was known by the PH, and they had been observing them, waiting for a hunter to come into camp to whack the male, that is a different scenario, but that is not what was described.

Posts: 5235 | Registered: 30 July 2007

Ignored post by 505 gibbs posted

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posted

quote:
Now, if that pride was known by the PH, and they had been observing them, waiting for a hunter to come into camp to whack the male, that is a different scenario, but that is not what was described.

Because I talk to Aaron all the time...I did not read his Hunt Report in detail. But...to the best of my knowledge...the above quoted portion WAS taking place.

Posts: 39309 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

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posted

than we would agree that due diligence was done.

Posts: 5235 | Registered: 30 July 2007

Ignored post by 505 gibbs posted

fairgame

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posted

Originally posted by fairgame:
I am no expert Brad but I have never taken a Lion from a pride. Never had to and to be honest have always tried to avoid them. They scoff all your bait for starters.

I know some of the lone males I have taken have been younger nomads looking for a pride to infiltrate. My view was always if the Lion is mature and solitary then he is fairgame. I advocate the five year rule but will abide by the country rule.

Basically what I am saying is that pride male should be left to carry on breeding and defend the females for as long as he is able. If they are ousted then so be it and then they are a worthy trophy.

Where I work there has always been many more nomads than prides and in my humble opinion I suspect this concentration is very disruptive to pride dynamics or rather continued social structure.

Like I say I am no expert and my methods and personal ethics are just that. Mine.

Andrew,
Do you remember writing this?

quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I'm just going on what the PH told me based on his 20 years experience in 7 countries. I don't have a clue on age but the PH said he was vulnerable because of deteriorating physical condition so I assumed 8 years +. His point was that if he did not shoot the lion that he might loose the big male AND the cubs if a male/males took over the pride. I assumed your advise would be to not shoot him but the PHs point seemed to make sense also.

Mark

Mark,

Indeed this specific lion was elderly and should have been taken out. This is a prolific game area and has a very healthy Lion population. Note this pride male has not been seen since your visit.

If a bait was presented on one of his walk about routes no one would be any the wiser. I would say that many pride males are taken this way which is unfortunate.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

_______________________________________________

Yes I do. A good PH decided the old male should go. He monitored it for a year or so on his property and this is his decision.

Like I said I have not taken a pride male and more concentrated on solitary males.

It would not be a bad thing if LCTF introduced this policy?

ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal

Posts: 10102 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009

Ignored post by fairgame posted

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posted

quote:
It would not be a bad thing if LCTF introduced this policy?

Andrew,
Specifically...which policy are you referring to?

Posts: 39309 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
Originally posted by fairgame:
Yes I do. A good PH decided the old male should go. He monitored it for a year or so on his property and this is his decision.

It is not his decision anymore! As...lion hunting is now closed in Zambia. Partly due to pressure from anti's due to poor practices in the past.

Here is what Dr. White had to say about shooting any age pride male KNOWN to have cubs.

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Re: a question‏
11/27/12
Reply ▼
Paula White

To LANE EASTER, Dr. Paula White, Craig Packer, Karyl Whitmann, Colleen Begg

Dear Lane,
I do not believe that shooting a pride male with young cubs is justifiable, under any circumstances.

Best,

Paula
Dr. Paula A. White
Director, Zambia Lion Project
Center for Tropical Research
University of California, Los Angeles USA

USA: 831-521-1218

Zambia Cell: +260 0978 093693

e-mail: paw@carnivoreconservation.com

On Nov 13, 2012, at 4:21 PM, LANE EASTER wrote:

A Question from a booking agent for a PH:

Here's a situation that I ran into recently. I was having a conversation with a PH that operates in the Kafue and he told me he has a couple of resident lion prides that he monitors. One of these prides has a very big but significantly aged male. He feels that this lion is at a point where he is physically vulnerable and could be killed at any time by younger males. He wants to shoot him if he can get a client interested. He actually had a client turn the lion down earlier because he was with the pride and the cubs were crawling on the old boy etc. Is this lion a shooter? I have a hard time argueing with this PH's logic.

What is the consensus from the experts?

Sincerely,
Lane

J. Lane Easter, DVM
Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons
Owner/Surgeon Performance Equine Associates
15257 U.S. Hwy. 377
Whitesboro, TX 76273
Phone: (903) 564-7443
Fax: (903) 564-3704
lane.easter@pea-tx.com
ledvm@msn.com
http://www.pea-tx.com/

Posts: 39309 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

fairgame

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
It would not be a bad thing if LCTF introduced this policy?

Andrew,
Specifically...which policy are you referring to?

The taking of pride males.

ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal

Posts: 10102 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009

Ignored post by fairgame posted