USF&W decision

Adamsdjr

One of Us

posted

I hope they delay again. My hunt starts on the 20th!

Posts: 113 | Registered: 24 December 2011

Ignored post by Adamsdjr posted

LionHunter

One of Us

posted

Lane-

Thanks much for the latest info from USF&W. This needs to be resolved as soon as possible for 2014. If they pull the same as they did with the Elephant, they are simply asking for additional lawsuits. More importantly, further delay is only causing more anxiety amongst those of us who have Lion on quota later in 2014.

Please keep your eye on this for us, as you seem to be one of the few who are on top of it.

Mike
______________
DSC
DRSS (again)
SCI Life
NRA Life
Sables Life
Mzuri
IPHA

"To be a Marine is enough."

Posts: 3577 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008

Ignored post by LionHunter posted

One of Us

posted

So after CITIES put off a decision for yet another year, is USF&W going to follow suit?

I also heard that Dr. Craig Packer got in essence declared persona non grata in Tanzania now... Hope that doesn't cause any more issues since he's one of the folks that is considered more than a little influential with USF&W.

Posts: 11213 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007

Ignored post by crbutler posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
So after CITIES put off a decision for yet another year, is USF&W going to follow suit?

I also heard that Dr. Craig Packer got in essence declared persona non grata in Tanzania now... Hope that doesn't cause any more issues since he's one of the folks that is considered more than a little influential with USF&W.

Dr. Butler,
Lets put your statement into context here and clarify a thing or two.

Tanzania is a country that has virtually ALLOWED its ele population to be wiped off of the face of the earth. They could put a stop to the poaching tomorrow if they WANTED to. So when you speak about Tanzania being at odds with Dr. Packer...what are you saying??? Are you taking sides with a governmet who allows mass production commercial poaching to go on at will over someone who wants lion hunting to continue...albeit on a SUSTAINABLE level???

Secondly...what exact issues has Dr. Packer created already since you are worried he might cause "more" issues???

Please be specific in listing these issues for us to discuss.

Posts: 38507 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

One of Us

posted

I think you overstate the ability of the government of Tanzania to be able to stop poaching altogether. Could they do more? I am sure. Stop it? Have we in the US stopped killings of any of our protected animals? We sure have a lot more resources than Tanzania has, and I have heard lots of stories about US bears and elk products being illegally diverted to China.

As to issues with Dr. Packer. I was told that his repeatedly saying things caused the Tanzanian government to revoke his work permit and so forth. I find it unfortunate that you are equating the lion and elephant issue with each other here. Dr. Packer, to the best of my knowledge has nothing to do with the elephant issue going on.

You were the one who stated that Dr. Packer was the person who was going to make or break the lion uplisting. You have also implied that the whole issue of uplisting was because hunting companies and outfitters were not doing enough in the eyes of the scientific community.

While I do not personally know Dr. Packer, I would think he's a pretty rare bird if he does not get mad about his work permit being revoked for what I am sure he believes were sound reasoning to make the statements and threats he did. My concern is will this action cause him to disregard the scientific evidence which your group marshaled on the benefits of hunting to extract a normal human reaction of revenge, especially if he has as much influence as you have implied on USF&W's decision.

So, to specifically answer your points: As to what Dr. Packer has already started- Dr. Packer and several others started the ball rolling on uplisting the lion to try and force changes in the hunting industry, which resulted in the unfortunate mess we all are in now, even though he admits that hunting offtake is not a major source of lion kill (just the only one that is amenable to law passage and the threat of USG action). Now, do I disagree that some action was needed? No. I do think the age laws and their modifications or a drastic cut in quota were needed. Do I agree about how he went about it? No. In any case, its water over the dam.

What am I worried about him creating? An environment where the politics in DC can be justified as being scientific because a highly regarded scientist or someone around him makes some statements influenced by the belief that he is being wronged by one of the players. I would think you would agree that any stance that hunting is not useful by Dr. Packer will be used by the antis to push for ES status for all lion?

Maybe I am reading too much in to your previous statements that he made about being the one who would decide, I don't know. I am taking you at your word here. I am not a player in DC, nor am I in the confidence of one.

Posts: 11213 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007

Ignored post by crbutler posted

Tim Herald

One of Us

posted

SO what happened (or didn't) at the CITES meeting in Mexico?

Good Hunting,

Tim Herald
Worldwide Trophy Adventures
tim@trophyadventures.com

Posts: 2981 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: 13 January 2005

Ignored post by Tim Herald posted

One of Us

posted

What I heard was basically that the findings did not support moving the lion to CITIES I but that the parties want to have a complete review as the feeling is that lion are critically endangered in part of their range. They want to have a complete review done for COP 15 next year.

Posts: 11213 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007

Ignored post by crbutler posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
I think you overstate the ability of the government of Tanzania to be able to stop poaching altogether. Could they do more? I am sure. Stop it? Have we in the US stopped killings of any of our protected animals? We sure have a lot more resources than Tanzania has, and I have heard lots of stories about US bears and elk products being illegally diverted to China.

Dr. Butler, Ele are big creatures. Tusks are heavy to export...there are many things that Tz could do to slow down the poaching tremendously...maybe not stop...but make a huge impact. Very little is being done right now...hence the concern.

As to issues with Dr. Packer. I was told that his repeatedly saying things caused the Tanzanian government to revoke his work permit and so forth.

The truth is the truth sir...sometimes it hurts.

I find it unfortunate that you are equating the lion and elephant issue with each other here.

I am not equating it at all...not sure how you inferred that??? What I said was this: Are you going to take the word of people that are turning a blind eye to ele poaching or the word of a man who has devoted his life to science of the wild lion??? Much of what we really know about wild lion biology came from his research. Dennis Ikanda (sp?) was his research student.

Dr. Packer, to the best of my knowledge has nothing to do with the elephant issue going on.

Agreed. Again...don't see how you inferred that.

You were the one who stated that Dr. Packer was the person who was going to make or break the lion uplisting. You have also implied that the whole issue of uplisting was because hunting companies and outfitters were not doing enough in the eyes of the scientific community.

I stand by those statements.

While I do not personally know Dr. Packer, I would think he's a pretty rare bird if he does not get mad about his work permit being revoked for what I am sure he believes were sound reasoning to make the statements and threats he did. My concern is will this action cause him to disregard the scientific evidence which your group marshaled on the benefits of hunting to extract a normal human reaction of revenge, especially if he has as much influence as you have implied on USF&W's decision.

Dr. Packer's research clearance was revoked out of revenge in the first place. The TZ government (with others) taking revenge on him. What will he do??? I don't know. I do know that it hurt him deeply. Orgs like Panthera were outraged by the decision. They will have influence as well...influence that was once positive. It has been my experience with Dr. Packer that he is a man of integrity...he does says what is best for the lion first. His statements that got him where he is at today...are an example of that. Most just go-along-and-get-along. But he took a chance to effect what is right for the lion at his own expense.

So, to specifically answer your points: As to what Dr. Packer has already started- Dr. Packer and several others started the ball rolling on uplisting the lion to try and force changes in the hunting industry,

That is a totally untrue statement. Give some evidence that Dr. Packer had anything to do with HSUS, Born Free, etc. etc. petitioning the uplist!!!

which resulted in the unfortunate mess we all are in now, even though he admits that hunting offtake is not a major source of lion kill (just the only one that is amenable to law passage and the threat of USG action).

He has said nothing to that extent either. He says hunting off-take of mature males has not influenced populations...but ...the over harvest of immature lion has significantly decreased it.

Now, do I disagree that some action was needed? No. I do think the age laws and their modifications or a drastic cut in quota were needed. Do I agree about how he went about it? No. In any case, its water over the dam.

You are misinformed about his role...severely.

What am I worried about him creating? An environment where the politics in DC can be justified as being scientific because a highly regarded scientist or someone around him makes some statements influenced by the belief that he is being wronged by one of the players. I would think you would agree that any stance that hunting is not useful by Dr. Packer will be used by the antis to push for ES status for all lion?

Dr. Packer has repeatedly stated that "properly managed hunting" plays a huge role in conservation of the wild lion. Read the "Definition of the Huntable Male Lion" at the top of this page.

Maybe I am reading too much in to your previous statements that he made about being the one who would decide, I don't know. I am taking you at your word here. I am not a player in DC, nor am I in the confidence of one.

He will be a significant influence...no doubt. It is too bad that TZ did what they did to him for simply stating the truth. The old saying: "no good deed goes unpunished rings loud and clear."

Lane in red.

Posts: 38507 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
What I heard was basically that the findings did not support moving the lion to CITIES I but that the parties want to have a complete review as the feeling is that lion are critically endangered in part of their range. They want to have a complete review done for COP 15 next year.

Basically, that is correct...they tabled it for the time being.

Posts: 38507 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

One of Us

posted

Dr. Easter,

Its certainly possible that I have details mixed up. I don't have any inside sources. However, didn't HSUS use Dr. Packer's research in their letter and didn't they quote communications with him? Now, I am sure they cherry picked citations, as it seems is common in academia, but their underlying basis for contention was from him. I guess that part of my concern about the man is caused by his unwillingness to quash this right at the beginning when he was stating that he had control of the situation, and the fact that he has been quoted as saying things that are rather anti hunting at times.

You know him, and you probably have a much better read on him than I do. I still am concerned about what you just confessed up here- that Dr. Packer is upset about Tanzania's actions and that his supporters are upset. To some extent, I am too, as scientific thought requires freedom to explore things without censorship, something that US medical research needs to recall, but nevertheless, as several people have found, you say something unpopular with your boss, you get fired, being right does not necessarily matter. Been there, had it happen before. Being right just allows you to live with yourself.

As to where I got the connection between elephant and lion, read back a few messages. Who brought up elephant in this thread? You seem to be correlating Tanzania's issues with elephant poaching to their behavior with Dr. Packer.

I really hope that Tanzania and Dr. Packer can come to an understanding again. The scientific world is not so populated that we can lose talent for internal squabbles, but I also think that the proper way to deal with Lion or Elephant from our (US) standpoint is to work through CITIES, not play our own game here- all that does is offend folks, and as near as I can tell by their actions they blame Dr. Packer for a lot of this, rightly or wrongly.

Also, how can young lion hunting offtake be a major issue? There are what 2-300 Lions (of all ages, predominantly older males) taken by sport hunters in Tanzania a year, versus how many thousand killed by poaching or "animal-human conflict"? I am not disagreeing that we should work to 0 but still, statistically its not significant in comparison.

Posts: 11213 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007

Ignored post by crbutler posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
Dr. Easter,

Its certainly possible that I have details mixed up. I don't have any inside sources. However, didn't HSUS use Dr. Packer's research in their letter and didn't they quote communications with him?

They may have...but if his research was pure and he reported the truth...what difference does that make?

Now, I am sure they cherry picked citations, as it seems is common in academia, but their underlying basis for contention was from him.

Dr. Packer reorted data that he believes to be true and his peers accepted for publication in scientific journal. To not acknowledge that their is a problem...is a problem. Every conservation minded outfitter in TZ that I have spoken with admits there was a decline in lion populations.

I guess that part of my concern about the man is caused by his unwillingness to quash this right at the beginning when he was stating that he had control of the situation, and the fact that he has been quoted as saying things that are rather anti hunting at times.

Dr. Butler, All block owners are not equal in their block management and conservation mindedness. He is against some and very complementary of others. So...I am sure you can dig up anti-hunting qotes from him. A couple of bad apples tend to spoil the whole barrel and the good get lumped to gether with the bad.

You know him, and you probably have a much better read on him than I do. I still am concerned about what you just confessed up here- that Dr. Packer is upset about Tanzania's actions and that his supporters are upset.

Tanzania revoked his research clearance for malicious reasons. They should not have done it. If it were you...I bet you would be un-happy as well. The lion of the Serengeti were Craig's life work. They were his life. Tanzania was wrong to jerk his clearance. As I said before...he taught us much of what we truly know about the wild lion.

To some extent, I am too, as scientific thought requires freedom to explore things without censorship, something that US medical research needs to recall, but nevertheless, as several people have found, you say something unpopular with your boss, you get fired, being right does not necessarily matter. Been there, had it happen before. Being right just allows you to live with yourself.

As to where I got the connection between elephant and lion, read back a few messages. Who brought up elephant in this thread? You seem to be correlating Tanzania's issues with elephant poaching to their behavior with Dr. Packer.

That is the common denominator. Poor decisions by the TZ government.

I really hope that Tanzania and Dr. Packer can come to an understanding again. The scientific world is not so populated that we can lose talent for internal squabbles, but I also think that the proper way to deal with Lion or Elephant from our (US) standpoint is to work through CITIES, not play our own game here- all that does is offend folks, and as near as I can tell by their actions they blame Dr. Packer for a lot of this, rightly or wrongly.

Also, how can young lion hunting offtake be a major issue? There are what 2-300 Lions (of all ages, predominantly older males) taken by sport hunters in Tanzania a year, versus how many thousand killed by poaching or "animal-human conflict"? I am not disagreeing that we should work to 0 but still, statistically its not significant in comparison.

First...let me say that no one has ever been able to put a number on how many lion are killed by poachers, herdsmen, or other outside of hunting. That said...in TZ alone...no one believes it to be thousands/year making 200-300 very relevant. Young males whom are kicked out of prides form coalitions which in essence function like mini-prides...it gives them killing power to feed them selves. Loan sub-adult males often starve to death. So first...shooting a young male out of a 2 male coalition may doom the other subadult male as well. Then, in areas where all the adult males have been removed (which used to be quite common in blocks in TZ), the sub-adult males will take over the prides and often time kill their predecessors' cubs, but then these new males are often replaced the next year (because they were not mature/strong enough to hold a pride in the first place) when their cubs will be lost in turn. It gets to be a vicious cycle. By only removing 6-yr old adults and older, males have a chance to hold on long enough to breed successfully and for their cubs to reach maturity.

Lane in Red.

Posts: 38507 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

One of Us

posted

Addition to above:

The "gut feeling" of a group of conservationists I polled for this answer say between 100-200 (closer to 100 than 200) lions are killed each year in TZ OUTSIDE of hunting...no where near a 1000 much less 1000's.

Posts: 38507 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted

One of Us

posted

I thought it was quite a bit higher.

I have been told by multiple trackers and game scouts that 5-10 lion are poisoned for every one that is hunted (after all, the whole pride is poisoned when they do that), and that the local farmers shoot a fair number that are killing livestock. Of course, these are never found by the folks counting the lion kills.

I have personally seen a whole pride that was poisoned.

I think my anecdotal evidence is not too out of the ordinary experience. You don't need to talk to too many folks to hear stories about Masai poisoning Lion.

If there is wholescale poaching going on, then where is that? Somehow I think the lion population of Tanzania would be fine if they were only losing 400 or less a year.

Logically, legal hunting offtake has to be a drop in the bucket.

I also have read in several places that the biggest issue is loss of habitat- this is where hunting is the most helpful, yet that is never stated by the scientists as a primary target of big cat protection, reduction of legal hunting pressure is the only thing that seems to be on the table.

Again, as I have said before, I am not against a scientifically derived rationale as to which animals to take; but the scientists need to wise up that even if they turn hunting offtake to 0 their current plans don't save the species.

Kind of analogous to all the US plans with greenhouse gases. We can cut the US emissions to nothing, but since China, India, and the rest of the third world are dramatically increasing theirs, we really are doing nothing except damaging us without addressing even their perceived problem.

Posts: 11213 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007

Ignored post by crbutler posted

One of Us

posted

Large scale commercial poaching of ele is real. Actual intentional poaching of lion for resale is probably quite low.

As you say...retaliatory poisoning of lion is a big problem. Still not 1000's per year and I think we can probably safely say less than 1000/year.

I have listened to Dr. Packer speak twice now publicly.

Each time he led off with loss of habitat being the #1 cause of lion population decline.

He has even proposed mechanisms to stop human encroachment into hunting and park land.

As #2...he always says retaliatory killing.

While he is not a hunter hisself...Dr. Packer recognizes that hunting blocks are needed habitat for lion and only WITH lion hunting money can they be maintained.

The man only asked for "real" conservation tactics with transparent accountability...something you and I could agree that was needed...but he was crucified for it...damn shame.

The same people that crucified Craig are also turning a blind eye to large scale commercial ele poaching...that is the correlation between the 2.

Posts: 38507 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006

Ignored post by ledvm posted