The Accurate Reloading Forums
LION Trophy Hunt Form - TZ Wildlife Division
14 October 2011, 23:41
JohnHuntLION Trophy Hunt Form - TZ Wildlife Division
that can pretty much kill lion hunting. The lacey act has some big penalties
15 October 2011, 02:39
505 gibbsI believe all of this is the exact reference that John Jackson made in his previous letter. Especially someone being criminally liable for something that cannot even be proven (a wild lions age). I would also like to hear (if there are any attorneys familiar with the Lacey Act here) if it is true that the trophy doesn not have to actually be exported to be in violation, all the feds have to prove is what the intent of the hunter was when the trophy was killed.
15 October 2011, 16:02
Bwanamichquote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
I am not an attorney, have not played one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...so take this FWIW!
It seems to me that if the TZ government allowed export and did not deem the "hunter" in violation of a law...the Lacey Act would not kick in.
Will check on that. Perhaps "Blanco County" or "Safari Lawyer" might chime in and opine???
I'm not a lawyer either but it seems that the client would have broken the law for shooting a non suitable lion (under 6) but is still being allowed to keep the trophy once the penalties have been paid for?
Mich,
If this is the case...the hunter would be subject to prosecution in US by USF&W under the Lacey Act.
Then no trophy export it is!
"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa
hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset
15 October 2011, 19:01
505 gibbsquote:
Then no trophy export it is!
I believe you are still in violation of the Lacey Act even if you only "acquire" the illegal trophy, no export required. I would like to hear from one of our resident attorneys on this...
quote:
The Lacey Act provides that it is unlawful for any person to import, export, transport, sell,
receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law
whether in interstate or foreign commerce. Read more:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What...ey_act#ixzz1arJCkRaW
17 October 2011, 08:39
Aaron Neilsonquote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I vote "No" on permitting the hunter to import an unsuitable lion trophy. A non-importation rule would add "teeth" to the regulations, if you'll pardon the pun.
Both the lion hunter and his PH - and I would say even the outfitter - should have skin in the game.
If a hunter knows that he will not be allowed to import a trophy deemed unsuitable, he will be inclined to educate himself about the best means of aging lions in the field.
He will also be inclined to have a frank discussion with his outfitter and PH at the outset of his safari. Who should rightly have to pay the trophy fee for a lion that is deemed shootable by the PH, but later deemed unsuitable by the authorities? The hunter? The PH? The outfitter? Should it be paid 50-50 by the hunter and the outfitter?
These are interesting questions to me. My sense is that the hunter should have to pay at least something - after all, he pulls the trigger. And he should not be able to import an underaged lion trophy.
These rules, coupled with the PH sanctions already in the regulations, would strengthen the disincentives to the taking of young and unsuitable lions.
Lion hunters will be very careful about accepting a PH's recommendation under such regulations, and will hold back unless the trophy is pretty close to a sure thing.
Andrew Holmberg once wrote that he never even had to think about trophy quality when guiding hunters. That was because he disregarded anything questionable. Anything he recommended shooting was an obvious trophy, the quality of which fairly screamed "SHOOT ME!"
I like that standard, but these days it would mean coming home empty handed from many a lion hunt. Hunters need to know, understand and accept that, for the good of the game.
Rational, with a couple of good questions too!
"Unsuitable", should not be allowed exportation! Simply just insist TZ - PH's stop shooting young lions, period! Its a very simple request, and very simple to adhere to. If a PH doesn't know the difference, revoke his license.
Wish I had more time to comment, but only home for a couple of days, then hunting/guiding solid until Nov. 21st. Problem is, 505 is hunting with us next week, so I'll have to listen to this in person too.
Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com 17 October 2011, 18:41
505 gibbsquote:
Problem is, 505 is hunting with us next week, so I'll have to listen to this in person too.
You have no idea, I have about 6 months worth of talking points, some ears are going to be burning next week.....where's the flip off emoticon???
17 October 2011, 23:18
Frostbitquote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
Problem is, 505 is hunting with us next week, so I'll have to listen to this in person too.
You have no idea, I have about 6 months worth of talking points, some ears are going to be burning next week.....where's the flip off emoticon???
Hope you give a big tip for the added therapy sessions.
17 October 2011, 23:33
505 gibbsquote:
Hope you give a big tip for the added therapy sessions.
more like a bill for the education.
18 October 2011, 00:51
Frostbitquote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
Hope you give a big tip for the added therapy sessions.
more like a bill for the education.
I have little interest in a 2:1 hunt but it might be worth it just to be in camp.
Aaron, You might want to tape this and sell the DVD here on AR.
BIG BUCKS!!
18 October 2011, 07:22
505 gibbsquote:
BIG BUCKS!!
Thats why I am hunting with Aaron.
18 October 2011, 18:16
ledvmquote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
more like a bill for the education.
An education on patience and restraint.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
18 October 2011, 18:29
505 gibbsquote:
An education on patience and restraint.
It is difficult for the children to sit still and listen sometimes.
18 October 2011, 19:31
ledvmquote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
An education on patience and restraint.
It is difficult for the children to sit still and listen sometimes.
Especially when the verboseness is pestilent to the brain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
18 October 2011, 19:43
505 gibbsquote:
Especially when the verboseness is pestilent to the brain.
as logic, rationale, reason and coherent thought typically are to the brainwashed, self serving masses.
18 October 2011, 19:53
ledvmquote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
quote:
Especially when the verboseness is pestilent to the brain.
as logic, rationale, reason and coherent thought typically are to the brainwashed, self serving masses.
Precisely!
That is why Aaron, who is logical, reasonable, and rational, will have to exercise patience and restraint.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.