Can anyone help me understand the re-stampings on the 303 SMLE that I keep in our outhouse in case some bear try to violate our privacy?

A relatively rare Edward VII cipher on the gun as he reigned from just 1901 to 1907.

As the rifle has a perfectly adequate serial that has been canceled and the "CR XXXX" then stamped I suspect by sort of large public or semi-public organisation.

One that had a need for its own unique serial number system to establish an inventory of who had (or where was) a weapon.

Certainly if this was just sold out of service to an individual or as part of a surplus lot to a gunsmith then I can't think why a re-number would be required.

So my guess is either that the CR is relevant...maybe CANADA RAILWAYS...or that the gun was inventoried is in a jurisdiction that had a compulsory centralised system of firearms registration.

Of that the ONLY one that I can think of at that time would be (then British ruled) Ireland.

Sounds to me like you need to put some magazines or newspapers in the outhouse so you have something else to read other than the stampings on your rifle.

Wow. Nice old Sparkbrook. Trade ya.

On the left side of your barrel, directly in front of the receiver ring, there is what appears to be a "broad arrow" overstamped on something else. Can you make out what the something else might have been? The broad arrow was a symbol of military acceptance and ownership. As to the "CR" it could hypothetically allude to numerous things....

"R" often referred to "Regina", or in other words, "the Queen". But I can't even guess what what the "C" might represent. I don't know of any British Queen whose name began with "C". (VR often referred to Victoria Regina, for instance).

Possibly there was a Regiment which had a nickname which would merit a "CR"? I know lots of the Regiments did have Royal affiliations in their names, such as the "Princess Pats" which are still an active Regiment.

Interesting subject for research. There is a Canadian Military Museum located in Calgary, former home of the King's Own Calgary Regiment (of which I am still a member of the Officer's Mess) which includes many, many examples of historical Canadian military small arms. You might inquire there. I suppose it even could stand for "Calgary Regiment".

The Glenbow Museum, also in Calgary...on a bend in the Bow River...has many examples of primo historical paramilitary Canadian small arms, such as those of the NWMP (North-West Mounted Police), predecessors of the the RCMP/GRC (Royal Canadian Mounted Police/Gendarmerie Royale du Canada). They also might be able to provide information relevant to your search.

I don't know when the KOCRs were formed, but until 1905, both Alberta and Saskatchewan were parts of the Northwest Territories. In that year, each became a Province of Canada. That might have been an appropriate occasion for restamping your rifle.

Interesting puzzle. Hope you have fun researching it.

AC

Phil

The renumbering usually means a rearsenal job. If you want to check with the people on this web site, there are a few that do know a bit about SMLE rifles.

http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/

We have a British weapons section.

Rad

Have been thinking overnight about your rifle, and realized there is another possibility as to the reason for and meaning of the re-stamping.

As you may recall, WDM Bell left the Yukon to answer the call to arms by Britain in the colonies early in WWI. Matter of fact, he joined a regiment being raised in Calgary particularly to help the motherland. The openings in the regiment filled so quickly that his main fear was that he wouldn't get there from the Yukon to still be able to enlist.

Anyway...early in the war the Canadian regiments were armed primarily with the Ross Model 1910, in .303 British, which worked fine even in the trenches, SO LONG AS it was fed high quality Canadian ammo of correct diemensions for their tight chambers.

But the British stuffed shirts with the gold braid on their hats were much like our own (and everyone else's...remember our M-16 problems in "Nam" for example?), and didn't recognize the quality problems with their own supplies of ammunition. So, the Canadian ammo was put in a common "pool" and the Ross rifles often went into combat with very poor QC british ammo made under great pressure to supply vast amounts after the war began. To say the least, it was dimensionally unfit for Ross rifles to function reliably with. Thus great "jamming" problems began occuring in the trenches. (Bolt retention on firing was an entirely different problem.)

The Canadian rifle was immediately blamed, rather than the faulty ammo, and fhe decision was made to rearm the Canadian troops with Lee-Enfields. That, of course meant grabbing SMLEs from stores ("supplies" in American English) and turning rhem over to the Canadian expeditionary force, en masse.

It is only natural, given the Canadian and British predelictions to record keeping, that the Canadians would re-number them for identification and tracking before handing them out to the field soldiers.

(One must remember that the term "red tape" came from the tape around British records which were kept about and on darned near everything. It was the tape around the individual file packets to keep the files together which was Red in colour....)

Anyway, I would not be at all surprised if the "CR" and the new number meant "Canadian Rifle", "Canada Rifle", "Canada Reserve", or something such as that. It could even mean something like "Chamber Reamed", Canada Renumber" or some such.

Incidentally, it is a matter of history that the SMLE rifles supplied to Canadian troops also jammed at first with the same inferior ammunition. Canadian officers tried to inform the Brits of the problem but were rebuffed. So the rifles for the Candaians had their chambers re-reamed larger before final issue on the front lines. And so eventually did most of the arms of the British Regiments. It was to make extraction more reliable.

There is a fair amount of documentation of that experience and ammunition problems, including even in a videotape tape issued about 4 years ago on how Canada's experiences in that war actually drew the nation together as an independent country in fact as well as name. I believe the tape was called "Vimy: Making of a Nation". I have a copy of it here somewhere if you'd like to watch it some day, Phil. And if I "eveeeeer" get fully unpacked so I could loan it to you.

It is also why I will try to get a contact number for the historical office of the MOD (Ministry of Defense) in Ottawa. I have used them often when I lived in Canada and they were remarkable in the kind of detail they have on vitually everything related to Canadian military history, and very willing to share info.

Now that I think of it, I am almost certain they could answer your question.

Best wishes,

AC

Thanks AC, Your theory sound pretty solid and is not all that different from the one offered by Rowdy from Auatralia on the Nitro Ex forum

A relatively rare manufacturer the BSA Sparkbrook factory only made Mk I* SMLE rifles for a few years.
Your rifle has been modified to Mk I*** to take the Mk VII ammunition - then later shipped to Ireland where the original serial number was barred out and reserialed as CR 2044.

He could be correct but since I picked this rifle up at a pawn shop in Wasilla quite a few years ago I would guess it is more likely to have arrived from Canada than from Ireland.

Alberta Canuck, Bell joined a Regiment in Calgary and they fought in the Boer war, not WW1.

They probably would have used Lee-Metfords or Long Lee's.

quote:

Originally posted by buckbrush:
Alberta Canuck, Bell joined a Regiment in Calgary and they fought in the Boer war, not WW1.

They probably would have used Lee-Metfords or Long Lee's.

Yeh, you are right. I forgot which war it was, obviously.

At any rate, I never thought it might have been Bell's rifle. Was just trying to point out that in much of Canadian military history, local regiments were formed and then shipped out as regiments, not as individuals.

The regiments filled very quickley, too. So it is quite possible that as they didn't previously exist and therefore could not have been previously armed, they would be given arms by the mother country with which to fight. I know that was done in numerous instances. So, that might be why they were re-marked.... Possibly issued from British supply reserves just prior to the regiments being fed into the front line meat-grinders (the trenches) of WWI.

I seem to recall that the shortage of arms for the colonial (and later "commonwealth") forces when the mother country needed their asistance was one of the reasons that rifle manufacturing arsenals were created in both Australia and Canada.

I still have not had the chance to try to find a URL for the historical office of Canadian Forces, but still plan to get at that if/when I have time.

IF The rifle was in Canadian service, they'd be able to tell us why the double marking.

Thanks for the catch.

A MKI* updated the MkI*** ( two additional stars added).
MkI* rifles in service were ordered updated to MkI*** in 1907.
1907 was when the MkIII version was introduced.
They were not called the "No1" MkIII till the 1920s. Confused yet/

The Mk1*** has the orig rear sight recalibrated for Mk7 ammo or a MkIII sight installed. Usually the rear hand guard got replaced with a MkIII style, though sometimes the steel ears of the unique MkI style rear handguard were ground down and the MkIII wings added in either case.

MkI* had the earlier sliding charger guide on the bolt head which is missing from this rifle. The common SMLE charger bridge was added in 1907,,one of the MkIII traits.

The renumbered rifles with the 'ER' and 'CR' ser# prefixes are commonly agreed amongst collectors to be a group sold/given to Ireland.
There is still discussion about it I assume and I really don't know if the subject has even been fully prooved w/documentation or not.

It's been a long time since I was involved in the collector side of Lee Enfields.
IIRC, one of the commonly accepted collectors theorys is that one of the ser# prefixes (ER or CR) was stamped on MkI*,, and the other on MkI*** rifles during the Irish renumbering.

The stamps on the left side of the bbl/receiver are standard military proofs (crossed pennents/P), inspection mark and BroadArrow mark of British Military Property.

I have a Mk1*** packed away that has been renumbered to this system, but I don't recall which prefix it is. Should be 'CR' if those MkI*** were renumbered with that,,and the MkI* left unmodified were renumbered with 'ER".

Lots of ideas about what the prefixes meant,,but I really don't recall if any concrete evidence was uncovered to their meaning.

Most all of those Irish Enfield rifles were imported into the USA in the late 50's and early 60's by Ye Old Hunter in VA.
They sold for something like $12 at the time.

The rifle could have easily gone north to Canada from the US in those earlier times of the 1950's and 60's on a hunting trip or just travel. It was comparatively simple to cross the borders then with a long gun. Not like now.
Making it's way to AK from there in those years is not unlikely. The SMLE was a commonly used and well liked all purpose rifle.

Some of you may remember the Ye Old Hunter ad(s) in magazines with the surplus rifles, each with a symbol next to it from the country of origin. They used to show up in American Rifleman magazine as well as others.
These Irish Enfields had at times a bright green Shamrock,,other times a leprechaun (sp) symbol next to them.

BSA/Sparkbrook is a very desireable mfg'r as far as Enfields go, both the Long Lee's and the early MkI SMLE.

Hope the info helps.

All this info is a great help - It's the next best thing to having a rifle that can talk
Thanks a lot