Hi, first I am a newly registered member, but have been lurking in the shadows for some time.I have about 15 yrs. of big game hunting experience including trips in Canada, USA and South Africa.

I hunt with factory rifles: a rem. Model 7 in 308 and a Win Model 70 in 300 win mag. I like both but I am now wanting more...

More as in:
Better trigger
Smoother feeding
Greater Accuracy
Better reliability
All-Weather functionality etc....

I've completed a search and many top rifle makes pop up:

Jarrett
Rifles Inc.
NULA
Echols
Miller
Penrod etc..

Question 1.

What is the difference between a $3,500.00 rifle and a $9,500.00 rifle in terms of reliability, functioning, accuracy etc. ?

Having an engineering and business background, is the incremental improvement in overall performance worth the $6,000.00 difference in price? I am at a loss of how to build a business case for a top price rifle when it appears as though a 3K rifle would be 10 times better than what I have already.

In other words, aside from emotional reasons (nothing wrong with those), what increase in performance do you get going from a factory rifle to a 3.5K custom then going to a 9.5K custom?

I value all comments but especially those from high end custom owners or people who have that experience.

Mike

The simple answer is $6000. Money is needed to have a custom rifle built, but finding a smith with a good reputation for producing the type rifle you want is the key. I would look for a smith that's easy to talk to, will listen to your request's and make polite suggestions when you get outta bounds with what you want and generally easy to deal with.

Terry

Hey Mike - welcome! Good question, actually. I'm an engineer also, and agree that at some point, your dollars are not really buying you THAT much more. The return on investment, to me anyway, reaches some maximum point and then diminishes. Eventually, you aren't buying better accuracy, smoother operation, more reliability, etc - you are buying fancy inlay and exotic wood, and maybe the name of the smith.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with having a showpiece, as long as you look at it as art instead of a tool. Personally, I can't see spending more than $3500 on a custom rifle. For that price, you can get all the bells and whistles that really matter and it will still be a huge leap beyond the factory product.

I can build an accurate, dependable rifle myself, but it won't look nearly as nice as a real custom from a good smith. The work the experts can do is truly great, but I am too hard on things to justify spending thousands on a fancy custom rifle. Just my $.02

I answered in your other thread too but another way to look at this is that at some point you have quit paying for a tool and are now paying for art. How much you'll pay depends on how much of an art lover you are.

The second group is the dedicated proffessional like Allen Day whose life and living revolve around firearms and he, among others, is attracted to the best equipment he feels he can buy.

Lots of overlap in any demographics. Oddly enough, the folks with more money than skill or knowledge seem attracted to flash, not quality so they don't fit this thread as well as some recent Weatherby threads

Beauty, dear friends, is in the eye of the beholder. I think that the proper analogy is wives. You could spend a lot of money and end up with Pairs Hilton, easy to look at, high maintanince, may get the job done but a trophy.
You could get a reasonably attractive woman who loves you and whom you can trust, takes care of you, get the job done and does not cost too much to maintain.
You could get a woman who cleans the game, washes the dog, keeps the truck running and does not buy soaps and lotions, but gets the job done if you double bag her, and you might want to keep her out of your friends sight.
Only you know what you want. I don't say need, because we don't need guns at all, but they are fun to have around. If you can stand the cost, go for it.
Judge Sharpe
Life is too short to live with an un-medicated wonam or hunt with an ugly rifle.

Based on my experience, the break point between "tool" and "art + tool" is right around your $3,500 mark.

What the additional money buys is better wood, sights, special barrel configurations, modifications to actions for rounds they were not built for, custom bottom metal, etc.

As I like my guns to be both art and tool, I choose to spend a little more for better wood, acsent engraving, and the like. This sort of basic ornimentation adds about $1,000 to the cost. The pleasure of owning and using a beautiful tool is worth it to me.

Judge, one thing stands true about both Paris Hilton and high dollar guns...it's the competition for them that drives the price, not the fun per dollar spent!

What do Paris Hilton and a rifle have in common? A hole in both ends and rather hollow in the middle.

Instead of shopping by price, I think you should figure out which riflemaker's product you like best. A trip to SCI or the SHOT show may be necessary to do this. Then you need to pay whatever that riflemaker charges. Maybe $3K or maybe $20K.

BrooksRange,

Welcome to the group! Hope you enjoy the fun here.

I'm probably from the opposite end of the spectrum from you. My eternal question, is, how much performance can I get, for how little investment? To an optimist, the glass is half full. To a pessimist, it is half empty. To me, the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.

Variation adds in a peculiar way, by the square root of the sum of the squares. If you add together all the sources of variation in shot placement, the total variation will almost always be governed by the largest single source. There is no point in having a gun that will shoot better than 1" at 100 yards for hunting purposes, because the largest single source of variation in point of aim is you, not the gun. If you can shoot 10" groups offhand, improving the gun from 2" to 1" will NOT cut 1" off your group size. It will cut .15" off, because you have reduced a minor source of variation, not a major one.

Only you can decide what you value. And whatever you value is what you should buy. If you want a gorgeous piece of wood, by all means, get that.

But do continue asking the question you have posed: Exactly what incremental advantage do I get for my incremental expenditure? In most cases, I think the answer is going to be beauty, not functionality. Once a gun feeds smoothly, handles well, at least nicks a quarter at 100 yards every time, and is dependable, there isn't much function yet to add, and that can be had for under $1,000.

Opinions are like 30-06s, everyone has one. At least I hope everyone has one.

Once you get beyond about $3000, you are paying for a reputation or a lot of glitts (engraving, etc.). My gunsmith can't figure how some of these guys are getting $5000 for a composite stocked, parkerized, etc. rifle that requires little craftsmanship to put together. He's seen many from known smiths that he has tweeked for this reason or that. Fit a good bbl. to an action & bed it in a decent stock & the rilfe will shoot better than most shooters can out to 500yds. When you want quality wood work, checkering, wood to metal fit, etc. well, then you have to start looking for an artist, but even then I can't see paying $2000 just for a piece of expensive firewood. Don't get me wrong I like quality stuff, but????????????????????????
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3.../375108472#375108472

I'm really pissed, not at the thread but because I just typed this whole thing out, meant to hit the maximize button so I could see how much room it was going to take up and accidently close the window!!

here it all goes again.

It may be true that in some cases once you get over the 3k mark you are paying for glitz and name. Not always true though.

I have a rifle in an obscure wildcat that because of that I was able to get for 500 bucks. The stock blank would probably run you about 500 on the low side (figure is good and hardness is great), checkering I was told by a stockmaker once would have run me over 400. Not to mention the shaping and fitting it (wood to metal fit is incredible). Do build it you'd have about 2500+ just in the stock. It's a commercial FN action, very nicely polished with an apex barrel. I think you could have got the whole thing for 3500 or just under if you started out from scratch.

I see three things right off the top of my head that put you over 3500 bucks, aside from stock work. Stocks will get you into trouble so let's just say that you are going to only spend 1000 on a stock, that'll get you a nice looking stick if you do the work.

1. Commercial or military action, military will take a whole lot more work
2. cartridge selection. pick something that isn't a drop in for the action = more work
3. purpose and features. if you want open sights and scope you up the cost. barrel mounted hardware, up the cost, barrel with integral features up the cost. non-standard safety up the cost.

Remember, you are paying for shop equipment, maintenance, materials, sometimes yes knowledge (I'll illustrate this real well in a second). I've never seen a well to do custom gunmaker. They don't do it to be rich.

I have a Winchester 1917 Enfield that I bought package with a stock for 350 bucks already almost done (458 win, going to be 458 Lott), I thought. Not knowing all that I know now. The gun had feeding problems, the triggerguard was welded poorly, the bolt binded so bad on cycling that it was almost impossible to make it work.

I decided to continue with project, to get it to work and look finished

1. guide rib installed on bolt and slot cut on bridge
2. new bottom metal made straight
3. bolt handle will have to be rewelded properly
4. new trigger (person that started the project did some weird thing reshaping the trigger)
5. new rear sight base made and fit to the barrel
6. barrel turned to fix something done with the integral recoil lug
7. new front sight base
8. contoured and setup for bases
9. magazine box and rail work

think about all the machining on that. the guide rib installation has been done but there probably aren't a lot of smiths that can do it right. That's lots and lots of hours there guys. then get into custom bases and quick release ring setups, custom barrel features etc. etc. The cost can easily start jumping up there. I would LOVE to get custom iron sights with custom permanent bases and matching quick release rings, probably looking at 1 grand just to do that!

You don't have to spend 3500+ for a custom rifle, just don't assume that because somebody spent 7500 it was just for a signature on the barrel or for pretty things.

Maybe we'll get lucky and a smith will get on here and give us a short blow by blow on everything involved. There is a point at which I WOULD CUT IT OFF, but that is because of the economic principle of diminishing returns.

Red

You can’t build a case for a custom hunting rifle when any pawnshop 30-06 will put meat on the table, but since you’re posting here, you’re already a lost cause and I’ll tell you what I know.

1. A $3,500 rifle should be superior to a factory rifle in every way: accuracy, weather resistance, staying zeroed, feeding, etc. This will inspire much confidence, but a $75 SMLE kills game just as dead.

2. You have to shoot a custom rifle a LOT for the difference between it and a factory rifle to matter anywhere but between your ears.

3. The best investment you can make in any rifle, custom or not, is to shoot it a lot with one load under conditions identical to those in which you hunt. The familiarity you’ll gain helps you hit better and only hits count.

4. The second-best investment is to make your rifle to fit you properly when you’re in hunting clothes. If it does, your ability to make fast hits with it will jump incredibly. The results you get from things as small as taking 1/4†off the stock and changing your scope ring height can be astonishing, but it takes practice to see the difference.

5. The biggest pro AND biggest con of custom rifles is that you get what you ask for. Identify what you need, then study every way to get it in a factory rifle or factory barreled action. You’d be amazed by what light customizing can do. Time spent checking out used rifles lets you learn from other people’s mistakes.

6. Use a gunsmith who specializes in rifles that function perfectly. They’re fewer of them than you think.

7. Only get a custom if you can’t find what you need from the factory. I recently needed a 35 Whelen on a CRF action with a twist faster than 1:16. A rifle built on a pre-64 action with a Lilja barrel, Rimrock stock and 4x Leupold set me back $2,500. Had I needed a 30-06, I could have upgraded a factory rifle for half the money with great results.

8. Read “The Art of the Rifle†by Jeff Cooper. It’s about how to hit with a rifle, including technique and ways to measure your skill. What you learn from the book will save you a lot on future rifle purchases.

Good luck.


Okie John

My last custom rifle cost me 1200 with scope.

It is a 416 taylor on Ruger MKII stainless action.

Is it custom yes can't find one from the factory is it real fancy no. Does it shoot yes(very well).

Spend what you want. But to get a very useable accurate rilfe in some know cailber. One doesn't have to spend very much to do so.

To have some top named smith and to have it with a very nice wood stock one well have to pay more.

My last custom gun had a marginal cost of less than $200.

Took a new Savage factory 220 Swift barrel and screwed it onto a left-hand Savage action. The Swift is not available from Savage in left-hand.

Have other customs which ran over $10,000.

Custom guns are about getting something you want that the factories do not make. Can include stock, barrel, action work, and a whole lot more.

Hammer

Guess the real difference between a $3,500 rifle and $10,000 is the ego trip of having someone like David Miller make the rifle
I have three really what I would call custom rifles. One is a 30-06 on a McMillan stock and a Douglas 1 in 12" twist barrel. A home gunsmith named Cal Albright built the Rifle for me for #125.00 Beautiful piece of wood, Timney trigger and the rifle was sub minute of angle. I hunted many times with that rifle, until a serious fall broke the stock right at the wrist.
He built that rifle more as a gift for a friend than to make money, and it is one I'll never part with. I replaced the broken stock with the McMillan.
The next one is an Oberndorf Mauser that someone spent some serious money putting together. I picked it up from it's original owner for $900 who was selling it due to medical problems and could not hunt any more. it fits me like it was made for me.
Then there's my 1909 Argentine Mauser in .280 Remington. A fellow dies and his wife had a friend selling it at a gun show. A 24" barreled action with Timney trigger, trap door buttplate and matching grip cap, and the stock which was still in the rough. $300 for the pile. I had the harry lawson Company finsih the job including bedding the rifle, doing the outside of the stock including checkering as 22 LPI. Total cost for the entire package was $1295.00. I've only tried one load in the rifle, but with WMR powder and the 175 gr. Hornady, I get consistant .50" groups.
My point being, you do not have to spend a young fortune to get a decent rifle. I have had people at the range offer me $3,000 for the Whelen.
I'm just as proud of those three rifles as anyone owning a Miller rifle might be. They're good looking and they work.
I'm thinking of havong one more rifle built up as I have a J.C. Higgins Mauser action laying around screaming, "Make me beautiful." I just haven't decided on what cartridge to use.
Paul B.

Fine gentlemen you guys are indeed.

Thank you.

I do not want a wood stock.

In fact, I am looking for an All-Weather Stainless Steel, Kevlar-fiberglass-composite type stocked model 70. Weight around 7.5-8.5 pounds bare- in 300 Win.Mag., H&H or Wea. or Jarett chamber.

So, please answer based on the SS and plastic stock and pricing between $3.5K (most top makers) to $9.5K (Echols, miller, et al...) is the $6000 more going to contribute that much incremental value?

Probably not for the average gun nut. The $10,000 rifles are really the desire of the pinnacle of gun buyers.
In fact, they are also pretty good investments. When D'Arcy Echols or David Miller are long gone from this earth, the fruits of their labor will be extraordinarily valuable. That is the way of the world and one good reason for a young person to buy one of their rifles. I'm probably older than either of them so the numbers don't work for me. But if I had the money, I would still do it for the awe of it.

quote:

I recently needed a 35 Whelen on a CRF action with a twist faster than 1:16

Okie John, can you further explain the "needed" part of this. I've got my 7x64 coming in from the gunsmith next week and I'm looking for a good story to tell the wife why I "needed" a cartridge to fit between my 7x57 and 308.
Thanks,

Kimber is coming out with a long action. One of those in the Montana version would do it for a grand. Thats all you need to spend.

This custom stuff is just ego play. I show some of my nice guns too and it's fun but 99% of all hunting gets done just fine with regular guns.

This is gonna sound harsh but it's honestly not intended as such... since you've framed the question(s) as you have it makes it obvious you don't know what you want let alone the how's and why's of what you want. Become a "student of the rifle" for a few years then make an informed decision based on personal knowledge (with some good guidance thrown in) rather than internet polling. Throwing money at something means nothing. Building something that comes from a personal vision is something altogether different. A decent "tuned" factory rifle will suffice for all hunting world wide for any of us. A custom rifle, however, is the next step for someone with an "educated pallete", unable to get from a factory rifle what he wants.

quote:

Originally posted by browningguy:
Okie John, can you further explain the "needed" part of this.

Yes.

Ammm, well, no.

But I am positive that you need a 7x64 to hunt in Fwance. The 7x57 and 308 are military cartridges whose very existence threatens peace and prosperity there, the stability of Europe is not to be trifled with.

Good luck. My wife didn't believe me, either.


Okie John

quote:

Originally posted by BrooksRange:
Fine gentlemen you guys are indeed.

Thank you.

I do not want a wood stock.

In fact, I am looking for an All-Weather Stainless Steel, Kevlar-fiberglass-composite type stocked model 70. Weight around 7.5-8.5 pounds bare- in 300 Win.Mag., H&H or Wea. or Jarett chamber.

So, please answer based on the SS and plastic stock and pricing between $3.5K (most top makers) to $9.5K (Echols, miller, et al...) is the $6000 more going to contribute that much incremental value?

Well, yes and no. First off, You'd be hard pressed to find a smith that charges $9500.00 for a SS and plastic rifle. I'm sure some would take it if offered but most will quote you a price much lower. For what you're talking about the $3500 spent wisely will buy a superb rifle that needs nothing and will deliver a lifetime of hunting. I think the Echols rifles are almost twice that. But, I know he builds his own custom mounts for these rifles and I'm sure that's pretty time consuming. I'm sure there are other things that go into them that I don't know about too. To me, it's always' seemed a little pricey for a composite stocked rifle, but I've never heard of anyone that actually owned a Legend rifle that didn't like it.

Terry

Brooksrange ,
You're obviously looking for a rifle that is more functional than beautiful or you wouldn't be talking stainless steel and composite stock .Can't see much point in spending big dollars on custom made mounts etc. on this type of rifle when quality , reasonably good looking and functional items can be had off the shelf .
My guess is that in the USA $4000 will go close to getting a very good smith to build you a completely trued model 70 stainless action with all steel bottom metal , top quality scope mounting system , best quality button or cut rifled stainless barrel , and a McMillan stock with fancy paint job . You may want the metal coated with a weather and glare proof finish ? Choose the right smith and for what you'll pay this rifle should fit your build , be extremely well engineered , extremely accurate , durable , weatherproof , hold it's zero and be in the calibre and weight of your choice . In other words a practical hunting rifle .
Add another $1500 - $2000 and you can put a great Swarovski / Zeiss / Schmidt and Bender scope on it .
Every time you miss you'll know it was your own fault .
$9500 is for a blued walnut work of art that you can shoot when conditions are fine and that you can gaze and marvel upon when you wish you were out hunting but can't be .
Get one of each .
Chris Matthews has a big reputation as a builder of the type of rifle you're looking for . His email is :- longshotrifles@yahoo.com

I don't know about Echols but Jarrett said on his website that he reached a point where the demand was so high for his rifles that he had to decide to expand his company and turn over the work on some rifles to a larger pool of employees or turn down orders.

He said he decided to double his prices to reduce the demand without loosing the income. He said he did not want to turn the production over to a larger labor pool and lose control of quality. At the time he thought it A HUGE gamble but it certainly worked; that was probably 20 years ago.

So in the case of that rifle the builder simply decided the market would let him charge twice as much as they were used to paying and he was right.

You can probably get a damn fine rifle for $3500 but if you ever need to sell it the name of the builder will dictate the retained value. And even then you need to match the builder with the sport. These are hunting rifles so the name should be someone best known in that market.

If I had multiple thousands of $$ to spend on a couple of rifles, I'd be tempted to buy a set of NULAs that Mel could match for balance/geometry/weight. I think that you could buy a 22 Long Rifle and a CF of your choice from NULA, plus a couple of Leupolds, for $3,500. For $9,500, you could probably buy 3 or 4 CF rifles and a 22 LR from NULA. A selection like this; 22LR, 223, 257 Roberts, 7x57, and 338-06 would cover a nice spectrum of non-dangerous game.

Jeff

My suggestion is buy a $9500 gun for $3500 in the gunlist..The resale on Custom rifles is about 50 cents on the dollar...

Holy cow. I could by alot of rifles for either $3500, or $9500!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
My suggestion is buy a $9500 gun for $3500 in the gunlist..The resale on Custom rifles is about 50 cents on the dollar...

A very good suggestion indeed If the caliber is a bit hard to shoot most rifle are hardly broken in

Cheers
/JOHAN

send your m70 action to john lewis with $2,500 & you'll have what you want.....http://www.cprifles.com/About.html

I read a post the other day written by KurtC. He said something to the effect that custom rifles hold thier value about as well as fresh fruit. The man summed it up in very few words IMO

Terry

I don't believe Echols or Miller build a rifle for under $9500 in the first place. And they may not use stainless or plastic either.

It looks to me like you should be able to get the rifle you are looking for, for @ $3500 .

Also Winchester does make a stainless custom for @ $2500.

A 10K rifle By Hans XXX? Buy one in 90% or better condition and let the original buyer get "soaked"!

PS. The biggest joke is the Magnum Mauser action. A new one "in white" can set you back > 3,000USD. I can buy Heym .500NE bolt gun for 4000USD. You know, Timney trigger, express sights, martele en acier special "Krupp-Special Laufstahl",....solid piece of "Balkan walnut".

And what would the purpose be of a 500 NE bolt gun

When hand labor and one off production is employed over mass production, prices are always signifigantly higher.

Whether one wants to pay extra for a hand built of limited production item is entirely up to them.

If you are considering a $9500 gun, I suggest a Seacy PH model 470 Nitro.

I would still check out Hill Country Rifles. Their custom stainless synthetics will run from $2250 to $4250 + the customer supplied action of choice. They will also supply the action if you wish. HCR guarantees their custom rifles to consistently shoot 3-shot groups at 100 yards that measure 1/2" or better center to center, WITH FACTORY AMMUNITION.

Here is the link: http://www.hillcountryrifles.com/custom.asp