Well dad was trying to work up a load for his Mod 700 in 243. He was shooting Berger bullets 80gr I think, can't remember what powder. Anyway his first 3 shot group was good, not great but good.
The next shot their was smoke come out from around the bolt and that area. Went to open bolt, bolt was stuck, had to knock bolt open. Case was completely ruptured. Bolt was done for. Dad had gotten to where with powders that drop uniformly that he would probably weigh one of every 4 charges or so. Anyone in our investigation of the powder measure we found a piece of the safety seal stuck in the funnel part. So what we think may of happended was that the little piece of the safety seal didn't let all the powder fall out in the case like it is suppost too and ended up with light load on one of the cases that he didn't weigh the charge. We aren't sure but that is just our guess. Guess he is lucky that just the rifle got hurt.
Dad has been reloading for over 30 years and has never had this happen before. It is a heavy barrel with wide laminated stock. At least the stock is still good.

Every time I read about someone only weighing SOME of their charges I feel justified in weighing every-damned-one.

If you weight ALL your charges you KNOW that they are right.

I'm glad he's OK and if only the rifle is trashed it's a cheap lesson.

Are you sure the barrel is dammaged?

What's wrong with the bolt, you didn't say...

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
Every time I read about someone only weighing SOME of their charges I feel justified in weighing every-damned-one.

If you weight ALL your charges you KNOW that they are right.

I'm glad he's OK and if only the rifle is trashed it's a cheap lesson.

Are you sure the barrel is dammaged?

What's wrong with the bolt, you didn't say...

AD

Yes I agree that with you about weighing every single charge. but dad had got to were he would weight every 3 or 4 or so which I had been thinking was a bad idea.
The end of the bolt looks like you took a pair of pliers and twisted the metal. If I had a pictures it would be much better.
As far as to rather the chamber or anything is is bad I would not make that decision without actually having a gunsmith check it out.

I don't usually weigh every charge, usually every tenth or so. HOWEVER I use a loading block to put the cases in after dropping powder (I might only have 20 in the block or up to fifty cases) and under strong, good light I double and triple check the powder levels of the thrown charges in the cases. I try to have the best lighting on the bench I can, but I also use a small surefire to check out the powder levels. A gross difference will show up.

I use a Harrells Premium powder measure and really like it, especially when loading my bigger rounds (85-105grs powder). It is pretty consistant with good technique but I am always watching for "weird" drops...the powder clumps up, etc.

Years ago (when I was a newbie I got into progressive presses and the rounds cranked out per hour mantra. The more rounds per hour the better! Not a knock on progressives at all, I love my Dillon 650 but I now have a different outlook. In loading ammo now I put safety above all, as it should be. In addition to case inspection I make SURE each round is not under or over charged. My life or a friends may depend on it.

Handloading is a lot of fun, can tailor the loads for your rifle and save you a ton of money. Heavens, I couldn't shoot my 416 Rigby if I paid $120 per 20 rounds! Just be cautious and safe.

John

quote:

Originally posted by JKS:
I don't usually weigh every charge, usually every tenth or so. HOWEVER I use a loading block to put the cases in after dropping powder (I might only have 20 in the block or up to fifty cases) and under strong, good light I double and triple check the powder levels of the thrown charges in the cases.

This is VERY sound and healthy advice, especially when using powders that do not completely fill the case. Even more important with fast powders for rifle reduced loads.

quote:

Originally posted by JKS:
Years ago (when I was a newbie I got into progressive presses and the rounds cranked out per hour mantra.

I never used a progressive press but was a firm believer in the "max. m/s-matra", for the metrically challenged that would be the "max fps.-mantra".

Nopw I changed my mind. Like John very well says, safety ought to be always the #1-priority, it's just not worth the risk.

Jarrod, buy your Dad a RCBS Chargemaster, he will weigh every charge and be just as fast as a dispenser!! I am VERY confidant with mine.

Steyr SBS safe bolt rifles are proof tested to 120,000 without failure.
theres a failsafe for you.

I still use lee scoops to pick up the powder into a RCBS 10-10-10 & a RCBS trickler for minor adjustments. To the best of my knowledge I have never had a light load. I have however substituted h4895 for h4831 which totaled an expensive custom but did no damage to me. Those m700 actions are strong.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
...Mod 700 ...Went to open bolt, bolt was stuck, had to knock bolt open. Case was completely ruptured. Bolt was done for. ...

Hey Jarrod, Glad to hear your Dad was not hurt. He can be very thankful he was using a Remington which due to it's design, was able to protect him.

Something doesn't add up.

Unless the powder he was using was unusually fast for a .243, it would be nearly impossible to get an overcharge that would damage the action. In other words, a damaging charge of a powder in the "normal" burning range for powders used in the .243 would overfill the case to the point that powder was spilling over the neck and the bullet could not be seated normally. This is especially true with the very long Berger bullet in the relatively short Rem 700 magazine.

Secondly, to generate pressures that will damage a Remington 700 action (or most any modern turnbolt, for that matter), something other than a simple overcharge is needed, ie., a bore obstruction or something similar.

Beyond that, it is doubtful that a Remington 700 damaged by excessive pressure could be opened simply by hammering on the bolt handle -- it is brazed (or welded) on and will typically break loose before it can stand the torque necessary to overcome the serious brass flow from a badly ruptured case.

What kind of damage did the action appear to sustain that causes you to believe that it is ruined?

When I load, that is my time to myself, so I do it slowly anyway. I have and probably always will weigh every charge. Just me, but I like to be precise.

There was one occasion when I just threw the powder and weighed every 5 or so in 30 rounds, took a flash light to the lot to check and see if all looked like adequate powder had been thrown. It looked ok, but I never felt right about not weighing every charge. So, I never did that again.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Something doesn't add up.

Unless the powder he was using was unusually fast for a .243, it would be nearly impossible to get an overcharge that would damage the action. In other words, a damaging charge of a powder in the "normal" burning range for powders used in the .243 would overfill the case to the point that powder was spilling over the neck and the bullet could not be seated normally. This is especially true with the very long Berger bullet in the relatively short Rem 700 magazine.

Secondly, to generate pressures that will damage a Remington 700 action (or most any modern turnbolt, for that matter), something other than a simple overcharge is needed, ie., a bore obstruction or something similar.

Beyond that, it is doubtful that a Remington 700 damaged by excessive pressure could be opened simply by hammering on the bolt handle -- it is brazed (or welded) on and will typically break loose before it can stand the torque necessary to overcome the serious brass flow from a badly ruptured case.

What kind of damage did the action appear to sustain that causes you to believe that it is ruined?

There was a piece of the safety seal stuck in the poweder measure funnel part. Couldn't a reduced load do the same thing? He had already shot a 3 shot group. So I don't think anything was obstructing the bore.

Just found out powder was IMR 4895
A friend that does most of his own gunsmithing work thinks rifle will be fine with just another bolt. What do you all think?

It depends on what is broken, whether or not a new bolt will work.

What damage has this one received? Did it simply blow the extractor off, or are there other serious issues with it? Probably the ejector is smashed in and screwed up, but those can be replaced too. Strip the bolt and see if it goes into battery without showing lug setback. Without seeing it, so this may be waaaay off, but possibly a Sako extractor, new ejector plunger (though you can carefully tap the original back into shape with a small hammer) and a new ejector spring is all that is needed to get back on the road.

I don't think you could get enough 4895 into a 243 case to trash the bolt or action. Same thoughts on a light charge.
Do you think a hunk of the "safety ring" played a part in the scenerio?

When using a ball powder, I did not weigh every charge but I did eyeball the block of charged cases before seating bullets. A habit I still do even tho I have a Lyman 1200.

If I can get pictures could someone post them for me if I sent them to your email?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Something doesn't add up.

Unless the powder he was using was unusually fast for a .243, it would be nearly impossible to get an overcharge that would damage the action. In other words, a damaging charge of a powder in the "normal" burning range for powders used in the .243 would overfill the case to the point that powder was spilling over the neck and the bullet could not be seated normally. This is especially true with the very long Berger bullet in the relatively short Rem 700 magazine.

What Stonecreek is saying here certainly has a lot of merrit.For field or hunting loads I have mostly tried to use the slowest burnig powders that would give meaningfull accuracy and velocity.( full or near full cases).

I am, however , in violation of this sound practice when testing different powders as I do. One way I use to check for erratic loads of fast powders is a graduated dowel rod droped into the loaded case on top of the powder. Of course this doesn't tell you what weight the charge is , it only indicates that there is a noticeable deviation from the norm. roger

quote:

There was a piece of the safety seal stuck in the poweder measure funnel part. Couldn't a reduced load do the same thing? He had already shot a 3 shot group. So I don't think anything was obstructing the bore.

IMR-4895 has never been identified as a culprit in Secondary Explosion Effect (SEE), so it is highly doubtful that an undercharge could have been the problem.

A light charge of 4895 would do no harm whatsoever, but it is certainly possible to get too much 4895 into a 243 case and get into trouble.......more than likely some powder hung up in the measure and a very heavy charge was dumped......

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
A light charge of 4895 would do no harm whatsoever, but it is certainly possible to get too much 4895 into a 243 case and get into trouble.......more than likely some powder hung up in the measure and a very heavy charge was dumped......

Thought that also and that could very well be what it was. I hope from now on he weighs every charge. Guess now to see what to do to get the rifle but in operation. Rather just a new bolt or whatever.
Thanks for all the replies.

Remington will install a new bolt & proof the rifle. Personally I'd scrap the action.

quote:

Originally posted by tom ga hunter:
... Personally I'd scrap the action.

I'd hang it on the wall and NEVER consider trying to reuse it.

There is a term we use in industry called Cumulative Metal Fatigue. People that think they are Reloading Wizards, but don't know beans(aka Rookies) often try to push the velocity to levels which require Pressures above the SAAMI Spec, for all kinds of cartridges. Over time, depending on the amount of Over-Pressure and how often it has been applied can cause the best of Steel to fracture and eventually let go.

Think of breaking a wire by bending it back and forth. Depending on the alloy and temper, it might break in a few bends or it might take a good many, but it will eventually break.

And occasionally a Mistake is made like Jarrod's Dad made which also subjects the Action to a significant Over Pressure condition. One event like Jarrod's Dad experienced might not be enough to create a problem, but then again it might. Even if the Receiver was Magnafluxed, it would only show if there were non-visible cracks and will not tell how much Stress the Steel has already be subjected to.

Here is a link to (I think) a Mauser that let go shown on the Gun Smith Board which I refered to as Cumulative Metal Fatigue. It is one of the Primary reasons I very rarely buy a "Used" firearm. You just don't know how the previous owner loaded for it, or if it had many Overloads.

Best of luck to you all.

Single stage I measure every charge. Fr progressive, I measure every charge until I am certain that the charge bar is stable (usually about 20 rounds). Once I start cranking the handle, I usually check every 10th round to ensur I am getting a correct drop.

John

I use a thrower to drop into the scale pan then dribble if necessary. This way I've been testing the measure for years now.
With course powder it can vary maybe up to 0.5gr.

My point is that it is very seldom that the dud load is the 10th. It can be anyware.

I realise the 10th. or whatever, is checked for a different reason, usually.

quote:

buy your Dad a RCBS Chargemaster

Amen to that!!!

always weigh every load. I don't believe in throwers. lucky fellow -your dad.

jarrod,
pm sent re the photos.
greg