My last rifle post asked how would you go about a 30 cal ultralight, and before that a long range big game rifle. Today, I ask your esteemed opinions on choosing a 35 cal for SHORT range (sub 200yds) big game rifle, including elk and moose, possibly bison.

I alreadt have a 1903 action that came with a 35 Brown Whelen barrel. Now it didn't come with dies or anything, and I had the barrel taken off because I was going to use the action for something else. My battery is now complete, at least action/idea wise, except for my shorty thumper!

My thoughst are this...put the 35BW back on and cut it down to 18-21" for a proper brush gun. Now, I would likely cast the chamber to get the exact dimensions, and have to special order dies. Reloading data is limited and basically I'm going to have to start with whelen top loads as a starting point (or just under to be safe) and work my way up only knowing max loads when I get pressure signs...not my cup o tea.

Set back the barrel, rechamber to 350 Rem Mag. This will require bolt face and feed rail mods, but its also a factory chambering, with lots of data, no special dies, and no special forming of brass. Granted this is a 30-06 length action with a SA ctdg, but hey that means I could load heavier bullets without eating up powder space! This would cost more on gunsmith fees...but have cheaper dies, readily available, formed brass and plenty of data.

Set back and rechamber for 35 Sambar. This would cost the most, but be a VERY powerful cart and I have always wanted one anyways. I have plenty of 300wsm brass on hand already, and don't currently have a wsm of any flavor. There is more data available online. My only concern would be using a short barrel with a large amount of powder...is it going to be unnefficient, with unecessary muzzle blast and wasted powder for the velocity results? Dies are available from a few sources. But again, bolt and rail work.

I would go normal whelen...but seeing as its already cut for the brown supposedly....the only thing that'll clean up the chamber is going with a larger case. The BW is more "improved" then the AI, so I also can't just fire factory whelen ammo, the shoulder is pushed out kinda far and could result in a dangerous situation....another positive point for 350RM maybe? For possible resale, that is.

Guess we think differently

short range ( 200 yds ) to me would mean 358 Win..

but then again, I'd just go with the 338 Federal instead....

I handload, so the Brown Whelen Barrel would go back on and I'd just throttle back my loads...

I see no reason for a high horsepower round for 200 yd shooting..

I love the 358 win! I load for my bros BLR...but, same problem as the standard Whelen, I don't think the chamber would clean up at all seeing as its already cut for a rather straight walled, sharp should cart...hence my problem or I would've gone 35 Whelen in a heart beat.

I handload also as well, I guess I assumed everyone would assume I did that already lol

If you screw the B-W back on your done and you'll have all the performance you would get from any of the short mags.

Otherwise for the 350 rem you will need to set the barrel back a bunch,cut new chamber, buy the reamer, open the bolt face,open the guide/feed rails and you will be back to where you started preformance wise. I think I know wich way I would go on this but it's your gun.

BTW my .35 Whelen has taken two Bisen. One 1 shot kill and the other requiered a follow up shot but still a reasonably cleen kill.

A fella might have the Brown-Whelen set back enough to cut a Whelen AI chamber, but by the time you're half done it would have been cheaper to buy the Brown-Whelen dies. I say screw the tube back in and prepare to feed your wildcat.

I'd stay with the Brown Whelen and get yourself dies. If it has a barrel twist rate of 1:12-1:14", for short range work I'd use a heavy RN projectile if you can find them like a 275-285gr RN.
Cheers...
Con

I currently have a .358 Norma Mag being built on a `98 action,this is a round that is a hell of a 35.

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
I currently have a .358 Norma Mag being built on a `98 action,this is a round that is a hell of a 35.

All the advantages of the 358 Norma far outweigh the supposed disadvantage of it not being widely available. But is the 358 Whelen really that much more readily available either? So +1 to the above two opinions here!

The 358 being a standard Norma cartridge is freely available in most places,ok maybe not in Tanzania or someplace in Africa but the US,Aus,Europe,NZ all list the ammo or components in most on line stores. Many make their own brass out of other cases anyway.

Nothing wrong with the 358 norma at all!! I guess I just looked over it because in my mind I guess I see it more as a 22-26" barrel type caliber honestly. Not much difference, not enough to really nit pick, between the norma and the sambar however. I only considered the 35 sambar because I already have a lot of 300wsm brass I am not using.

My biggest problem with the Brown, is I can't find as much info about it as id like, and I have looked a good bit. I guess my other problem would be if I ever sold it, id likely have an easier time as a 350 rem....I feel strange about selling someone an "improved" cart that you can't just toss factory rounds in and expect it to be fireformed. Same goes for the sambar..but at least there isn't any factory ammo that people would mistakingly load

If anyone here knows, does the BW have to be formed like the Hawks? Fireform with cream o wheat, then expand to like 375 to create a sharp shoulder and then size back down and FL resize?

I would shoot the barrel as it is. If it shoots good then have it cut back to 18 or 20".

If not then I would get a barrel for the standard 35 Whelen.


I like big bore bolt guns with 18 to 20" barrels.

I have had a 350 Rem Mag and 2 375 H&H's with the short barrels.

358 Win!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:

Granted this is a 30-06 length action with a SA ctdg, but hey that means I could load heavier bullets without eating up powder space!

Yes. I would only ever build a short action caliber like a WSM etc. on a long action.

Mile High. Check your PM's.
Paul B.

NE450,

How did your 350 rem mag do with a 20" tube?
I would prefer not to buy another barrel, and if I had to I probably would end up picking a different caliber, I listed these options purely out of convenience.

Dr. Lou,

358 win is not an option, not because I don't like it, but because its just not feasible in the available barrel, same with a normal whelen.

Corey,

The best bet for building a WSM from the action up, with that intention in mind from the onset, is a M70, as they have a 3.1" magazine vs a 2.86" standard short action. You still get a shorter action AND the lil bit of extra room for longer bullets and/or longer calibers. This is what michael458 does with his B&M wildcats and why. Otherwise build the standard equivilants

MHS,
Almost 12 months ago three of us did a 358CRG (35/300RCM) reamer order ... the first one is now put together on a re-chambered Ruger Hawkeye 358Win. It's currently at 2800fps from a 200gr (with real ease) using two different powders and apparent mild pressures. I cant go into more details as the bloke that built the first rifle is doing an article. But its definately left both the 35Whelen/350RemMag in its wake and is closing in on the 35Sambar with light projectiles. The heavies may be another thing.
Cheers...
Con

Con,

Of course I thought about you when I started this thread lol I remember talking about the rcm on the wildcat board back when that was being formalized. And I HAVE considered that as well.

Right now its a tough call. The options are all good ones, some harder, some just more expensive. I just haven't decided how commited I want this project to be. Its not like our poor mans 404....that project is NOT on the back burner, I'm just waiting for the right action to come about. The 404 is a very personal thing between us and boomy, I WILL build that lol I'm just wondering if I want to have more then 1 wildcat that'll take a lot of time in case forming, testing, reloading....that's what really makes the 350 rem mag so tempting. Yes its more cost and time in building, but there is endless data, factory loads, and a resale value. Plus its just a darned good cartridge for my purposes. That's another reason I'm backing away from the 358 norma and the short mag cats.....I think its just more then needed.

The 350 Rem Mag did great in the 20" barrel.
As does the 375 H&H.

I guess a lot of this has to do with just how much money you want to spend.....

If you want a big boomer, I'd just put the B-W barrel back on...dies shouldn't set you back more than about $125 or so, less than almost any other option mentioned. Cutting and crowning the barrel maybe what? $35?

On the other hand, if it was my gun, I think I might plunck out the money for a new barrel and make something I really wanted, if the B-W is not already that.

If that "something" was going to be another .35, it would probably be a 9x57 Mauser for me...more powder capacity than a .358 Winchester, but not as big a cauldron as a Whelen or a magnum. Most important to me, no action or bolt work either (and I already have the dies).

From some makers 9x57 dies are not "custom" priced for that chambering anyway. Though a bit more expensive than .358 dies, they are not always exhorbitantly so.

As a "woods" gun, it need not have a premium make of barrel or become a "bench queen", so a Shaw or some other bargain barrel should do just fine for slaying the skookum mowitch, even the muy grande sized ones like elk or moose.

It would also be a good excuse to buy a set of Butch Lambert's die and bushings for forming correct length brass (and a lot of other projects in the future).

And finally, with about a 20" barrel or 21" and the smaller .35s, you aren't gonna set the woods (and your ears) on fire if you shoot from anywhere other than the middle of a glade, either.

Have fun...it's a great "problem" to have....

AC

Thanks AC! I'm not trying to get way too involved, and keep costs rather low. Besides costs, though, another factor is the whole package. Paul is sending me a copy of a magazine article about the BW (thanks paul!!!) that goes into case forming and reloading results. Once I have that I will have more knowledge of the whole undertaking. Yes, putting it back on, cutting/crowning and putting it in a stock is the quickest, cheapest option...but if I have to go through a big pain in the ass making cases and such then the $$$ value starts getting equaled out with the simplicity value of the 350 Rem Mag. I mean, its in nearly every single reloading book, brass is cheap and properly stamped, and its a fairly popular cult round (as is any 35 I guess...) so the higher dollar costs of resetting the barrel and rechambering (smith already has the reamers) can come out to less time spent on the bench experimenting and more time shooting. Something to at least ponder, when in this kind of situation. And yes, its a VERY good problem to have lol

MHS,
Another option that one of the hunting writers in Australia has done is his 358ME (Mitchell Express). It's essentially a 35/8x57Imp. Reamer was 'non-custom' ... 7x57Imp followed by a 35cal neck/throat reamer, dies are off the shelf 35Whelen AI shortened the appropriate length. In a long action (Ruger M77), the intermediate case length allows standard projectiles to be seated long, or Barnes projectiles to be seated where they need to be. Ballistics in a 23" barrel are running like a 350RemMag.

Maybe it would get you out of of trouble in that you could take some off the chamber for the rechambering, Imp design means less needs to be taken out to get it into fresh barrel steel ... dies are kind of semi-custom in that Redding offers them (35Whelen AI 40deg) and all you need to do is shorten them ... no bolt face work, shorter case but long action keeps all your powder space.

Just a thought. Heck ... 35/284 would also do nicely.
Cheers...
Con

Besides the improved shoulder, how would that differ from a 9x57? As always Con, you know just what to say to a gun nut to get him revved up LOL

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
with the simplicity value of the 350 Rem Mag. I mean, its in nearly every single reloading book, brass is cheap and properly stamped, and its a fairly popular cult round (as is any 35 I guess...) so the higher dollar costs of resetting the barrel and rechambering (smith already has the reamers) can come out to less time spent on the bench experimenting and more time shooting. Something to at least ponder, when in this kind of situation. And yes, its a VERY good problem to have lol

Yes that's a good cartridge, and would likely work okay IF the 'smith is willing to throw in free any extra time required to make it feed as well as with the currrent cartridge. Otherwise, you could end up spending more than just fitting and chambering (or re-chambering) a barrel.

I had a Springfield barrel rebored and rechambered to .358 Norma and I got away lucky...no extra action work required. But I am not certain that would happen with the shorter Remington case. It could involve both action rail work and fitting a spacer semi-permanently into the magazine box...and maybe re-doing the bolt stop too.

To be honest, if you took the time to make 100 cases, or even just 50, how many more would you ever need for the B-W? With that nice sharp shoulder, 50 or 100 well fitted cases should last about 8-10 reloads each...that's at least 500 or 1,000 shots. Way plenty for any dedicated large medium bore hunting rifle in most folks' lives.

Besides, you originally bought a B-W for some reason. Think back, maybe that fire will re-kindle.

Best wishes,

And have fun.

AC

You do make a good point on the extended case life, that always was a high point of improved cases. Hmm....tough one, have to wait to get that case forming info and I need to stop by and chat with my 'smith.

The only reason I have this barrel is because I was buying the action. I got it from a member here for a KILLER deal, and basically just wanted the action. Now I have all my other bases covered (almost) and figured about the only thing I didn't have was a short range thumper.

If your barrel does not taper all too much in front of the chamber area, it should be possible to cut it say 3/4 inch at the back, rethread and rechamber for your choice of 35 Whelen or Ackley Imp. By doing this you avoid the cost and possible problems with making short fat cases feed in an action designed for the '06. I have a Husqvarna 358 Norma, and it's a competent deer killer, but in your situation, I would stay with the standard Whelen. Short barrels and lots of powder can make your ears ring, I have friends dragging suppressors afield for this reason.

MHS,
You do realise that a Springfirld '03 action in 35Whelen (or a derivative) is very typically 'American'. I'd really be tempted to keep it as it and just lop the barrel to where you want it and be done with it.

I'm not sure ... but doesn't the 35Whelen-Brown simply have a puffed out shoulder and 40deg shoulder? Regular 35Whelen AI dies may be suitable to reload for it anyway. I'd really be tempted to say keep it as it is.
Cheers...
Con

Bukken,

It does have a bit of taper, I need the smith take a look at it and see what he thinks about that idea. If it can be set back enough, he is building is OWN 35 AI...tempting.

Con,
As American as apple pie! LoL...I've always been partial to strawberry rhubarb, however
I don't have a lot of info on this chambering...which is one of the reasons I'm hesitant. The other thing that just crossed my mind, is that to reinstall the barrel, won't the smith need head space gauges? If I need to have BW specific gauges, that just adds into the cost of having the barrel put back on. Correct me if I am wrong, anyone, on this part of the build. If this is the case, then I have to plunk down on gauges the smith will likel never use again AND the custom dies. That probably equals out to just doing the action work to make the 350 Rem work. I don't think there should be THAT much problem with making a medium length action feed a short action cartridge. Its not like they're full length actions like a R700 or M70, right?

I'd shoot it and see how it shoots. If you rebarrel it it would chamber it for the 35 Whelen. I've had a 338/06, close to the whelen. Very fine elk rifle and anything else. I now have a 358 G&H Improved and a 360 Imperial. I'd love to have a 35 Whelen in a 740 Rem for the dark timber Yaa Buddy

I like the 742 re-issue they did in 35 Whelen, 18" carbine model please

If I had to rebarrel the rifle, I'd choose a different caliber altogether.

Hard to decide whether to rechamber that barrel or replace it with a new one if you don't know how it shoots. If you can't beg, borrow or rent a set of dies then just going with a known, new barrel might be the better choice. Also the rails should have been modified for the BW, with its shoulder further forward, so there could be feeding issues with shorter cases. I'd want to talk to a smith familiar with making an 03 feed before making a decision. How about 9.3x62? They are picking up a following and resale should be good, if you ever want to get rid of it.

86,

Good point, i started thinking about that as well. The rails being already modded, that is. If they have already been opened up a bit, that brings me back again to the 350 Rem Mag, then they only have to be worked on a lil bit more. In theory lol of course.

Standard length action, rails opened ... that brings me to a 358Norma not a 350RemMag.
Cheers...
Con

For your medium range thumper 35s are amazing look what people say about 35 whelen if you have it chambered for 35ai 40 deg. even if you loose your amo on a hunt reg 35 whelen will take care of your problem 35 ai with 200 gr. tsx extremely good 225 gr swift also both loads work im mine. you would be verry happy with the 35ai garanted

Wolf,

Its a Brown-Whelen, sort of an improved improved. Unfortunately, the process isn't as simple as just firing factory ammo in it like an AI. But thanks for the input! I have the article Paul sent (thanks paul!!!) I just haven't had the chance to read it yet.

Con,

What would the results be like with the 358 Norma in a short barrel though? Thats my concern. I don't need another 24" barrel hunting rifle. I DO need a 18-21" barrel rifle though

I went from 2800fps with a 24" to 2690fps after having 4" taken off. Thats with 250gr Xs. My preferred bullet now is the 280 swift at 2500fps and if there's any difference in knockdown power it isn't evident to me. A 20' barrel is a lot handier in the thick stuff for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
.....

I alreadt have a 1903 action that came with a 35 Brown Whelen barrel. Now it didn't come with dies or anything, and I had the barrel taken off because I was going to use the action for something else. My battery is now complete, at least action/idea wise, except for my shorty thumper!
.....

MHS, I see ya really got 3 good options:

1) Get 35BW dies and put barrel back on rifle.

2) Set barrel back and ream to 35/284.

3) Give barrel away and buy new one in 35 Whelen or 9,3x62 or 375 Whelen or ect. ect.

Tough choices, that is for sure! I appreciate everyones input very much.

Heck today someone even suggested going 375 Ruger..but I'd want to do that or the 9.3x62 with a short barrel and mannlicher full length stock! That would be different for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:

What would the results be like with the 358 Norma in a short barrel though?.......I DO need a 18-21" barrel rifle though

Found an article in Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges" by Jon R Sundra titled The Big Swede, 358 Norma Magnum. He gives velocities in a 22 inch barrel, and notes only losing 17 fps per inch cutting from 24 to 22 inches. Notes that the Norma cartridge isn't overbore.