Howdy.
I have gotten into a mess with a "new" rifle, a SAKO FN action 8x60, and yes, the rifle is correctly marked as an 8x60 (0.318 bore) and not an 8x60S, which I wish it was. I cannot for the life of me understand why in 1950-1957 anyone was still using the .318 bore, but SAKO did just that. Anyway, now I am looking for ammunition. Have seen DWM marked as "standardized", and the slugs measure 0.318. Have also seen RWS H-mantle ammo marked as 8x60 and 8x60S (both as "Normalisiert"), and both sets of cartridges appear to mike 0.318. (Have not pulled a RWS to check the final bullet diameter) Anyway, I am now searching for Norma and RWS .318s, and the same from Woodleigh. Does anyone have any experience with S&B components? I see that they list a .318 too. So, in other words, Help!!
Larry

The fact of post-war 8x60 J bore Sakos has been posted sooooooooooooooooooooooo often here, that I cannot understand how anybodey would be unaware of this. I learned about it via this forum.

Carcano

Carcano,

Come on, lighten up. There's no reason to be that condescending. Why not try to help him instead? He's a relatively new user with not many posts.

-Bob F.

LOL Carcano91, ask me something about Steyr products before you become quite so condescending. As for the 0.318 Sako, please note that the "prestigious" Blue Book of Gun Values has the data incorrect too. Thanks BFaucett. Most folks from Sweden, Finland, and Denmark are more accomodating. However, I am now looking for 0.318 bullets. The J bore is not so much of an issue as a surprise.
LLS

sierra2

Sir, if I may add my 2 cents worth here: I once read an article on the old Mauser factories and the various changes Mauser made to the actions and barrels during the evolution that led to the M98 action and .323 barrel size.

Supposedly, once Germany standardized the .323 that's what everyone wanted and bullet supply followed. The trouble was, Mauser had a whole bunch of .318 barrels leftover from previous production runs and needed to do something with them. They solved the problem by cutting a longer throat in the .318 barrels than the standard .323 barrels had in order to more safetly sqeeze the .323 bullets down the .318 bore. And as such, a lot of rifles left the factory wearing .318 barrels that were probably feed .323 bullets their entire lives without a mishap.

Frankly, if all else is properly finished, heat treated, and installed, I don't know what difference the .005" makes. You might try some regular 8mm bullets. I know the Finns shot .311" bullets through their 7.62 Mosins and from what I'm told, most of those had a smaller than .311" bore. (+/- .309?) If all else fails, I suppose you have your gunsmith make a longer throat if needed. Otherwise, I'd imagine you've got yourself a real humdinger of a rifle!

Tex

Just to add a little fuel to this fire, IF you can take an empty cartridge case that has been fired in your rifle, and a .323" bullet WILL DROP FREELY INTO THE UNRESIZED CASE, you can shoot .323" bullets in it. Naturally, if you try this, you should start off with the lowest listed loads, and use slow powders for extra safety. I use 58 grains of RE 22 with Nosler Partition or Speer 200-grain bullets in mine, an 8X60RS w/.322" bore, which was originally a 7.8X57R (8X57JR) before it was rechambered in 1942, for a MV of 2450 FPS.

The key to safely using slightly oversized bullets in ANY bore is "Does the case neck FREELY RELEASE the bullet upon firing?? If the answer is yes, the bullet will swage down upon entering the bore, LONG BEFORE maximum pressure is reached, which happens at about the time the bullet has travelled from 4" to 6" down the bore.

P. O. Ackley once offered a sizeable prize to anyone who could prove that a rifle barrel had been damaged by firing oversized bullets, PROVIDED that the chamber was big enough for the case neck to expand and release the bullet. No-one ever was able to claim this prize!!

IF you try to put a .323" bullet into the mouth of a case fired in your rifle, and the fit is very tight or it will not go in at all, then of course you cannot use the .323" bullets. Whether this will work or not with your rifle depends on how tight the chamber is in the neck area.

quote:

They solved the problem by cutting a longer throat in the .318 barrels than the standard .323 barrels

Actually, what they did was to cut a larger-diameter throat area in the chamber, so the case mouths could expand to permit the bullet to be released from the case. This may have been done in conjuction with a longer throat or forcing cone area also, but I do know the diametrers were increased so that .323" bullet could be used. And the same thing was done to the Gewehr 1888 Commission rifles as well, so S-bore ammo could be used in them as well as the pre-1905 M98's! G '88's with the enlarged neck portion of the chamber are marked "S".

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:
Carcano,

Come on, lighten up. There's no reason to be that condescending. Why not try to help him instead? He's a relatively new user with not many posts.

-Bob F.

Bob, this is sadly par for the course with Carcano. Every once in a while, Carcano gets told to lighten up a bit, but it just seems to be his way of communicating. It is not just on this thread, it is on almost every thread he chooses to reply. Not quite sure why, Carcano sounds like he has quite a bit of experience to share, but the form in which he chooses to communicate can hardly be described as helpful.
- mike

Sierra2,

Would you post pictures of your rifle? Thanks from an amateur who likes old fashioned (and old guns) in advance and I hope you find good ammunition and start hunting with your gun soon.

I'd be happy to, unfortunately I have to take the pictures first, so will take a couple of weeks. Guess it would be good to show that damning 8x60 stamp, just to prove it's a real 8x60, and not an 8x60S. The Finns knew what they were doing. As for ammo, no real problem except finding bullets of the proper diameter. I really don't plan on cramming .323 diameter bullets through a .318 tube. But, Woodleigh, RWS and S&B still make 0.318s, and I see 0.318 Norma slugs from time to time too.
Larry

quote:

I really don't plan on cramming .323 diameter bullets through a .318 tube.

Have you slugged and miked this bore to verify its' actual groove diameter? Just curious.

Yes ED, did a Cerrosafe chamber cast. Miked exactly 0.318. I got suspicious when I rammed a soft slug into the chamber to get a first look, so the chamber cast came next to validate the rough test. Yikes 0.318!!!!
LLS

quote:

Actually, what they did was to cut a larger-diameter throat area in the chamber, so the case mouths could expand to permit the bullet to be released from the case.

El Deguello,

Sir, I stand corrected. I've never had to deal with an undersized bore and have never researched the issue much. Thank you for clearing this up for me - I have learned something new!

sierra2,

Reckon your rifle was made with a leftover .318" barrel and the maker wasn't aware of the bore size? I can't imagine why anyone would use an undersized bore otherwise... Good luck with your new rifle!

Tex

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:
Carcano,

Come on, lighten up. There's no reason to be that condescending. Why not try to help him instead? He's a relatively new user with not many posts.

-Bob F.

Ya easy, I never heard of it before, and I am here everyday.

quote:

Originally posted by sierra2:
LOL Carcano91, ask me something about Steyr products before you become quite so condescending.

Glad to do so, upon such kind and generous invitation, with which you have indeed shamed me.

Please teach me the history of the 10,75x57, and the production figures of the Mannlicher-Schönauer Model 1912. You will earn laurels. Certainly in my eyes, but also in those of everybody else.

And as to Terry's impression, see here (23 matches):
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums?a=search&...Type=1&search=Search

Carcano

Hi carcano:

Excellent. First, in reference to the information given in your link, Old Western Scrounger (OWS) no longer has 8x60 or 8x60S ammunition in stock. I went to his new shop in Carson City, Nevada. OWS used to be an excellent resource, but he is slowly selling out and entering different pursuits, too much competition from the Mail Order houses I think.

The 10.75 x57mm is listed as an obsolete rimless cartridge dating from approximately 1900, and chambered in Mauser 1888 rifles and Mauser 1898 rifles. Some say it is/was a "Mannlicher" cartridge which probably refers to the Steyr Armory, however, our archives do not show any references to that cartridge in the production Mannlicher Schoenauers mfg from 1900 forward. I read that it "had a short life as mainly an experimental cartridge" and that it is similar to the .400 Whelen and .405 Winchester. In either case, it is a dead cartridge. The 10.75x57 is not addressed by Taylor in African Rifles and Cartridges. There was also a 10.75x63mm that has been attributed to Mannlicher and the 10.75x68 which was catalogued in the M1924 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, I had one in 1971-73, sold it because I could not find ammunition, very bad move in the light of the present value of ANY 10.75x68 Mannlicher today.

I too would like to know all there is to know about the Mannlicher-Schoenauer of 1912, since the only Steyr model of that year - 1912 - is a military style Mauser 98 rifle, made in LARGE Numbers for Chile (pre WWI) and for the Austrian Government. Yes, I own a Steyr M1912 short rifle, fine rifle.

The true serial production Mannlicher- Schoenauer models are 1900, 1903, 1905, 1908, 1910, 1924, 1950, 1950 Improved, 1952, 1956MC, and 1961MCA. You may insert amongst the post WWII models the Magnum, which is a MC with a straight bolt handle, and the European market Model NO, again with a straight bolt handle and the "GK" style stock.

If you want to scare up a really rare Mannlicher-Schoenauer, find one in 9.3x57mm. We in the USA have been searching for a real, live, documented, 9.3x57mm Mannlicher for several years. Suspect it will be a M1910 or a M1924, when found, and sold exclusively in Sweden-Finland-Norway. There is precedent for this in the uncatalogued 6.5x55mm Mannlichers that turn up from time to time.

I served twenty years in the Navy, including that little SE Asian war, several lesser incidents, and a couple of years in your country.

LLS

Oh Carcano!

In case you were trying a tricky question, there is also a Steyr M1912 handgun, a semi-automatic chambered in 9mm Steyr, some later rechambered for 9mm Parabellum. Have no idea how many were made. Do you?

Referring to Pre WWII commercial Mannlicher- Schoenauer production numbers, Herr Hambrusch (Steyr CEO in the 1990s) declared that all factory records (commercial and military) were destroyed by the Russians in 1945, making factory research impossible. Some production figures are available for Military production items, Greek M1903s, Breda 1914s, etc.., but that data is available via public records and documented in three different books

LLS

quote:

Originally posted by sierra2:
Yes ED, did a Cerrosafe chamber cast. Miked exactly 0.318. I got suspicious when I rammed a soft slug into the chamber to get a first look, so the chamber cast came next to validate the rough test. Yikes 0.318!!!!
LLS

I see! I hope you are able to find some good heavy spitzers in .318" to shoot in it. The 8X60 in either size is a great cartridge!

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:

quote:

Actually, what they did was to cut a larger-diameter throat area in the chamber, so the case mouths could expand to permit the bullet to be released from the case.

El Deguello,
Sir, I stand corrected. I've never had to deal with an undersized bore and have never researched the issue much. Thank you for clearing this up for me - I have learned something new! Tex

Tex, when I was stationed at Fort Hood, one of my co-workers had two German 9X57mm rifles. One was a Mauser, and the bore miked .356". The other was a drilling (9X57R), and the bore miked .354". (Note that this size difference, .004", is only .001" less than what would be the case if Sierra was able to shoot .323" bullets in his .318 bore!!)

Because the cases in both rifles expanded enough on firing that .358" bullets would freely drop into the cases through the expanded mouths, we were able to load ammo for both rifles using U.S. .358" bullets with perfect results. We made 9X57mm Mauser cases from 8X57JS brass, and cases for the 9X57R were made by necking up Norma 7X57R brass. In the Mauser, this round was every bit the equal of the .358 Win. But in the drilling, we loaded it lighter, to just over .35 Remington ballistics.

Wouldn't a 9.3 cal take a 0.366" bullet???

Right, packrattus, the 9.3mm is a 0.366. Lot of good bullets choices left in that caliber.
LLS

quote:

Originally posted by sierra2:
Hi carcano:
Excellent. First, in reference to the information given in your link, Old Western Scrounger (OWS) no longer has 8x60 or 8x60S ammunition in stock.

Sorry to hear that. I am using the new RWS DK load in my own 8x60 S (and it costs an arm and a leg). The previous RWS H-Mantel had always shown desastrous inaccuracy in that rifle (though the bullet is generally reputed to be accurate). My own civilian MAS-36 sporter (fittingly marked "Magnum " on the magazine box) really loved the old Sellier & Bellot FMJ load, which is also stamped "Magn." on the case head, but most cartridges which I got hold of are now fired (must have been 1960s production).

quote:

The 10.75 x57mm is listed as an obsolete rimless cartridge dating from approximately 1900, and chambered in Mauser 1888 rifles

Haenel sporters, to be nitpicky ;-) (since the M 1888 commission rifle is not a Mauser model nor development anyhow).

quote:

and Mauser 1898 rifles. Some say it is/was a "Mannlicher" cartridge which probably refers to the Steyr Armory, however, our archives do not show any references to that cartridge in the production Mannlicher Schoenauers mfg from 1900 forward.

It is very little documented indeed. I believe it was loaded at least by Georg Roth.

quote:

I too would like to know all there is to know about the Mannlicher-Schoenauer of 1912, since the only Steyr model of that year - 1912 -

So would I, believe me; that's why I asked. The Model 1912 is largely unknown among Mannlicher-Schönauer collectors, as appears here again. My information that it was listed in a factory catalogue (and would not be just a prototype) stems from Helmut Eller (known as famous reloader, one of the best German-language gunwriters and Austrian importer of South African Impala bullets), who again got it from a collector friend. So indeed, more authoritative sources would be needed.

quote:

If you want to scare up a really rare Mannlicher-Schoenauer, find one in 9.3x57mm. We in the USA have been searching for a real, live, documented, 9.3x57mm Mannlicher for several years.

You mean the Swedish Mauser cartridge thus? Yes, I have indeed never heard of this animal in a Mannlicher-Schönauer :-). The last ones which I saw here some months ago were chambered in 8x56 and 9,5x57.

Regards,
Carcano

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
Wouldn't a 9.3 cal take a 0.366" bullet???

Yes, 9.3's take a .366" bullet. (9mm's, however seem to vary between as small as .353" and as large .358"...... Most are .354" to .356".

Interesting comment about RWS H-Mantle bullets. I have had excellent results with them in 6.5mm, 7mm and 9.3mm. Expect I will eventually see how they do in 8mm J-bore with this 8x60. At least I now have the dies and have scapped together a few rounds loaded with 0.318 Norma and Woodleigh bullets.
LLS

Okay, guys
Guess this is the end of this thread. Have the 8x60 (0.318) shooting now - handloads with Norma and Woodleigh bullets over IMR-4895 and N203 powders. The N203 loads flirted within an inch at 100 yards, so that's hunting accuracy and all I will expect for a 50 year old rifle without extra work ups, and with the scarcity of 0.318 bullets, I won't be doing much of that. Thanks for all the comments.
Larry

quote:

Originally posted by sierra2:
Okay, guys
Guess this is the end of this thread. Have the 8x60 (0.318) shooting now - handloads with Norma and Woodleigh bullets over IMR-4895 and N203 powders. The N203 loads flirted within an inch at 100 yards, so that's hunting accuracy and all I will expect for a 50 year old rifle without extra work ups, and with the scarcity of 0.318 bullets, I won't be doing much of that. Thanks for all the comments.
Larry

This has been interesting. Just as a matter of interest, here's how my J.P. Sauer SXS double in 8X60R shoots at 100 yards. This is with a 200-grain Nosler Partition bullet (.323") and 59 grains of RE 22; RWS 7X65R brass necked up and trimmed, Fed. 210 primers. V @ 10' = 2450 FPS.
Bores slug .321", and the gun, (made prior to 1914, according to proof marks), originally an "7,8X57R", was rechambered for the 8X60R case in 1942 by Kurt Anschutz and so marked under the barrels.



A real "fun gun".

Since you initially showed interest, but then lapsed into silence,

quote:

Originally posted by sierra2:
The 10.75 x57mm is listed as an obsolete rimless cartridge dating from approximately 1900, and chambered in Mauser 1888 rifles and Mauser 1898 rifles. Some say it is/was a "Mannlicher" cartridge which probably refers to the Steyr Armory, however, our archives do not show any references to that cartridge in the production Mannlicher Schoenauers mfg from 1900 forward.

here is a hyperlink to the thread on the 10,75x57:

http://forum.wildundhund.de/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?..._topic&f=37&t=000642

Carcano

quote:

This has been interesting. Just as a matter of interest, here's how my J.P. Sauer SXS double in 8X60R shoots at 100 yards. This is with a 200-grain Nosler Partition bullet (.323") and 59 grains of RE 22; RWS 7X65R brass necked up and trimmed, Fed. 210 primers. V @ 10' = 2450 FPS.

Bores slug .321", and the gun, (made prior to 1914, according to proof marks), originally an "7,8X57R", was rechambered for the 8X60R case in 1942 by Kurt Anschutz and so marked under the barrels.



A real "fun gun".

El D, what do you do for 8 x 60R brass?

I would suppose that he uses 7x65R or 9,3x74R, but am curious myself...

C.

I use a double, built in 1924 at Suhl, in 8x60RS. Loaded with 51 grs of N 550, I get 2500f/ps with the 198grs TIG and Horneber-cases. Normally, I don`t like the TIG, but in this cartridge, it does a excellent job on red deer and boars.
In a Mauser 98 in 8x60S, I shoot the 185grs MEN-Starkmantel at 2700f/ps with N 550 too.

Hi guys, finally got my photos back, so here goes my first attempt with photobucket. Not the greatest pics, and I don't think the "8x60" on the barrel is going to be too visible.

Sure wish there was a way to get at those 0.318 bullets available in Europe. My rifle definitely will do an inch at 100 yards with the Australian Woodleigh bullet, but I don't have much bullet choice here in the USA.
LLS

lol, you have me with a German language link, since all I can do is try to translate with a dictionary.
LLS

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
Since you initially showed interest, but then lapsed into silence,

quote:

Originally posted by sierra2:
The 10.75 x57mm is listed as an obsolete rimless cartridge dating from approximately 1900, and chambered in Mauser 1888 rifles and Mauser 1898 rifles. Some say it is/was a "Mannlicher" cartridge which probably refers to the Steyr Armory, however, our archives do not show any references to that cartridge in the production Mannlicher Schoenauers mfg from 1900 forward.

here is a hyperlink to the thread on the 10,75x57:

http://forum.wildundhund.de/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?..._topic&f=37&t=000642

Carcano

Monastery-Forester

Is MEN still making the Starkmantel Geschoß? Who stocks them in Germany?

Cheers
/JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

quote:

This has been interesting. Just as a matter of interest, here's how my J.P. Sauer SXS double in 8X60R shoots at 100 yards. This is with a 200-grain Nosler Partition bullet (.323") and 59 grains of RE 22; RWS 7X65R brass necked up and trimmed, Fed. 210 primers. V @ 10' = 2450 FPS.

Bores slug .321", and the gun, (made prior to 1914, according to proof marks), originally an "7,8X57R", was rechambered for the 8X60R case in 1942 by Kurt Anschutz and so marked under the barrels.



A real "fun gun".

El D, what do you do for 8 x 60R brass?

I take RWS 7X65R cases, neck them up to 8mm, trim them to 60mm, then run them through an RCBS 8X60S sizing die to position the shoulders exactly to fit my barrels, then load them

One can also use 9.3X74R cases and neck them down, but I consider necking up to be less likely to produce too-thick neck walls which have to be reamed before seating bullets.... Also trimming off 5mm is easier than trimming off 14mm!

Johan, Men has stopped production of the "Starkmantel", but sometimes you can find some at the dealers. But the belgiun Degol also makes "Starkmantel"-bullets of very fine quality, bonded cored, in several weigths.
Johan, where are you living in Sweden? At the beginning of the 90ties I have hunted in Värmland, near by Amotfors/Norma.

Thanks, el D.

Sierra,
I have a novel idea, shoot .318 bullets in it, thats not a real problem, lots of them around, just be sure they are premiums, you have a great caliber there...shoot woodleighs...

Monastery-Forester

I have a handful of DeGol Starkmantel Geschoß in 8mm that a friend gave me, think it's 185 grains.

Will send you a PM

Cheers
/JOHAN

Another Sako 8X60

Mr. Atkinson,
Yes, I am shooting 0.318 bullets, and it appears that Woodleigh is the only option here in the USA. I just today learned that S&B, like RWS, does not export components to North America. Looks like I am stuck with 200 grain round nose slugs "forever."
LLS