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| one of us |
Do we really need a premium bullet in the 7x57? At the moderate velocities generated (even with Seafire-type loads ;-)), does one really need a Fail Safe, Barnes, or even the venerable Partition ? Note I'm not talking about hunting brown bears or cape buffalo. I've shot a lot of white tails with the old 162 gr. Hornady BTSP, and never recovered a bullet out to 250 yards on normal broadside and quartering shots. My guess is: For Deer: No Elk: Maybe Moose: Probably a good idea My main concern with a premium bullet is expansion. At the 7x57 velocities at say, up to 300 yards. I wonder if the premiums will expand at all or enough? Aren't most of the premium bullets designed more for higher velocities, for example, the 7mm mag rather than the 7x57 ? If I recall correctly, the Partition is supposed to be be good to as low as 1900 fps. Thanks for any input Ben Reinhardt Pocatello, ID | ||
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I think it depends on the bullet weight, the distance you think you will have to shoot & the size of the animal. I load 160grNPs in my .280 because I hunt deer/elk in all kinds of terrain from open to thick stuff. If I have to shoot @ 30yds I want to make sure the bullet stays together. If I were hunting open country, say deer/antelope, then I may get buy w/ "std." bullets because ny shots may be longer & the impact vel. lower(JMO). [ 07-14-2003, 23:11: Message edited by: fredj338 ] | |||
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| one of us |
the 7mm bullets are high sectional density on anything over 150. I think the 7 x 57 is at the right velocity that a premium bullet is not needed. Hornady's 139 and 154 work great, as does any 175 grainers. Speers 160 Mag tip also is a good bullet. Any will work on Elk on down. It is just an effective caliber | |||
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quote:Thanks for the reply. A .280 is a lot hotter than a 7x57, though, in my experience. So the problem with explosive bullet behavior at sort range is more of a problem than with a 7x57, plus, you start out with considerably more velocity with a .280. A friend of mine used to hunt white tails with a .280 with a 20" barrel. He loaded regular cup and jacket bullets, usually a Speer 145 grain bullet. At close range (even out to 100 yds) it was explosive on white tails, ruined a lot of meat. In that case a partition (or a less speedy load) would have made more sense. Ben R. | |||
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quote:Thanks for the input, seafire. Ben Reinhardt | |||
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BKR, based on my own experiences a bullet like a 145 gr. Speer Grand Slam is a good choice for deer. If the quarry is moose and elk a 175 gr. would probably be a good choice. If expansion is a concern, you'll probably be happier with an A-Frame than a Fail Safe. That's the two I have the most experience with. | |||
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| one of us |
The Nosler in a 7x57 will expand properly at any range within reason in my experience and also at point blank range...they cost very little more than a standard bullet, go figure... I have been satisfied with the 130 gr. Speer on deer, its a great bullet as is the 145 gr. The Hornadys work well also and I have even used the 154 and 175 gr. Hornady on elk with good results.. Your post is pretty accurate, but I still think that using a Nosler is the safest bet, its a sure thing, and if you use a conventional bullet and it fails and they will from time to time, you just lost a fine game animal for being careless in your choice of bullets, it has happened to me on a couple of ocassions...It will make you want to kick your own a$$ over a 50 cent bullet, as opposed to a 35 cent bullet. Bottom line: Better safe than sorry. | |||
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For the most part, I shot nothing but 140 gr Nosler Partitions out of my 7 x 57. I have a Bruno ZKK 600 that likes 160gr the best so I shoot 160 gr Nosler Partitions in that. I just like the Noslers and they have been my bullet of choice for close to 40 years now. Hornadays will work as the speers. I like the 160 gr Speer SP for deer hunting. I have another rifle that is so chambered, it likes 175 gr bullets the best, so I shoot Nosler SP or Hornaday's what is great about the little 7mm is that just about any reasonable good bullet will work well. About the only bullets I have never used is the Barnes X and Boat Tails. As for the X I never could get them to shoot well in my rifles, and I never though much of Boat Tail bullets for hunting. | |||
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I like to test my bullets at the muzzle and also at the longest distance I expect to shoot. I use the Milk Jug filled with water test (see the reloading forum). If you get one with good expansion and weight retention, use it. If you don't have the time or desire to test the bullets, then go with one of the premiums, especially on game larger than deer. I'm personally partial to the 140 grain failsafe in the 7mm caliber, but I won't argue with anyone who recommends the partition. I like to find a good hunting load, and stick with it, regardless whether I'm hunting deer or Elk. | |||
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I've only shot two deer with my 7mmTCU and the 140 grain partitions at a mild muzzle velocity of only 2113 ft/sec expanded really well at 80 and 100 yards. Lots of internal damage. | |||
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Ray, I'm in the same camp as you are. When in doubt load up some partitions and go hunting. One bullet I am curious about is the North Fork. I know you are a big fan of them. What is your opinion of the North Fork as a 7x57 bullet? Jeff | |||
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quote:Thanks for the info! I load a Nosler Partition at 175 gr. for moose and elk, but have yet to try it out yet on an animal. Maybe this fall I will get a shot at an elk. Ben Reinhardt | |||
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quote:' I am going with the Partition for elk/moose sized game. Probably the 162 or 154 grain hornady for mule deer ( I have a lot of those, and they have worked well in the past for me). Thanks for sharing your experience, I'll be sure to let everybody know if I manage to get an elk this season. Ben Reinhardt | |||
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quote:The idea of using one load for bear/deer/elk/moose is what I was trying to work towards with the 175 gr partition load I worked up. I am a little concerned that the partition might just zip through a mule deer on a broadside shot, though. Ben Reinhardt | |||
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quote:Thanks, that's good practical information. I think the partitions are supposed to expand down to 1900 fps, but that might vary according to the caliber of bullet. Ben R. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
If standard bullets are in any way even remotely "borderline" for 7x57 velocities then they should all be adversized as SSP (single shot pistol) bullets only. The premium bullet hype is almost as puzzling as the magnum hype. Why is it surprising when a 175 gr partition makes a good kill when standard 175s have been doing just as well for decades? Seems to me that even the "ultra-high velocity" Weatherby ammunition won it's fame using standard Hornady bullets. Also, the price of 175 gr. partitions is nowhere near the price of standard 175s, unless you consider three times as much "near". At Midwayusa.com 175 gr Partitions are about $45 per 100; Hornady 175 gr. are about $16 per 100; and Remington PSPCL are about $13 per 100! I suppose we should all go out and demand that Nosler make a .358 200 gr flat nose partition so we can get "reliable" performance from our 35 Remingtons... ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} The 7x57 can reliably bag the whole array of non-dangerous game using sensibly-chosen standard bullets. | ||
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Skibum, I see the North Fork as a "Improved Nosler", I can't think of any higher praise... 9.3x62, I normally agree with you,but not on this issue, I am a confirmed premium bullet fan, I have seen Hornadys, Speers, Sierras and most all conventional bullets fail over the years and with the coming of the premiums I no longer have to deal with failed bullets.. On deer it makes little difference because failed bullets normally kill them anyway...On the bigger species I wil only use premium bullets, I see no reason not to..bullets are not that expensive, they are not going to break the bank around here anyway...If one cannot afford to use a premium bullet then he cannot afford the gas to get to hunting camp IMO... Use the right tool for the job. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
I often agree with you as well, Ray. However, If standard 7mm bullets can't be relied on at 7x57 velocites, then when can they be relied on? That would effectively render every standard 7mm bullet a varmint bullet for anything larger than a 280! Now, I agree that most of those fancy-pants magnums benefit from premium bullets, and I also think some bores (such as the 243) benefit from premium bullets, but a 7x57?!?! I have little doubt that the 7x57 would be a dodo-like footnote in the history of firearms were it not for its stunning performance on game with nothing but standard bullets. And the standard bullets of yesteryear were even "worse" than today's standard bullets. It seems to me than the primary advantage of the partition in the partition is to stop expansion at that point. If the bullet does not expand back that far, then the web is more or less superfluous, i.e. the forward jacket stopped the expansion, not the web. Now, maybe you have a point with 120 gr bullets or something, but 140 gr. and heavier seems like wasted money. | ||
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Ray and 9.3 x 62: It is tough to see two guys you really enjoy all of their posts and then they are at odds over one thing. ( If at odds, is mildly what you call it). From my experience, the Partition is a good investment. Not always needed, but never a bad investment. IMHO, the 7 x 57 is such a balanced cartridge, that is much harder to really search for a "bad" bullet in 7mm that it is to decide what is the best for a 7mm. If only the rest of life was as easy as this problem. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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quote:On deer, I don't think I need a premium bullet in my 7x57, even on big mulies. A 154, 162, or 175 hornady (I have several boxes of the older ones, not the SSTs) should do the trick even on frontal or quartering shots. I never shoot a deer in the shoulder anyway-tears up too much meat. Regarding bullet failures killing deer anyway: I agree, my experience bears this out. My first deer rifle was a Rem. 660 in .243 Win. I never lost a deer I hit with it, ever, starting from my first buck at age 8. I killed over 15 deer with that rifle, using 100 gr. Remington Core Lockts exclusively. Sometimes the bullet would basically be in fragments, sometimes a perfect mushroom, but the deer all died the same, within 20-30 yards or on the spot. On an elk or moose, though, I think a partition would be good insurance. Within reasonable range (maybe 200 yards) I'd have no problem with a frontal or quartering shot and a heavy partition. Ben R. | |||
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Seafire, 9.3 and I or not at odds, we are discussing a subject much the same as we would around the campfire, nothing more than that...hunters do not have to agree on everything and certainly they do not... BKR, I agree on deer it makes little difference and I so stated that in my first post on this subject, were talking elk and larger animals. 9.3x62, I shoot a Brno 22F with an extremely long throat and I can duplicate a .280 without dangerous pressure, in effect I have a 7x57 IMP., sorta.... With a load of H414 I can get 2900 FPS with a 160 gr. bullet or 2700 plus a bit with a 175 and that has some bearing on my position I suppose... I will say that with carefully chosen 175 gr. bullets, that perhaps a conventional bullet would be fine and I do know the 130 gr. Speer will work 100% on deer in the 7x57, 284 or the 280, it is an exceptional bullet for one of that weight. Sierras? never on elk in the 7x57, WW Silvertips never, and others...I will yeld and say certain bullets such as corelokts, the 175 gr. Hornady RN,and perhaps others in heavy weights will work on elk, I know they will as I have used them, but I still confess to a distrust to any bullet that isn't premium on the big stuff...Monlithics are another topic as the same rules do not apply to them... | |||
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My question develops from this discussion. My first premise is that the Nosler Partition is an outstanding bullet, and if you use it for hunting, you simply can't go wrong. But my 7x57 has a short carbine barrel and really likes the 175-grain Hornady RN launched at around 2,400 to 2,450 feet per second. I view this carbine as basically a short-range (less than 200 yards) rifle. Is it realistic to think that I would see any benefit on any game animal in North America if I were to switch to a 175 Partition? Would a moose tear that heavy Hornady bullet apart, where the Partition would just punch through? I'm curious to see what your penetration experiences have been with conventionally-built "classic" 7x57 bullets like the 175 Hornady RN driven at such modest velocities. | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Ray, A campfire chat it is - Amen to that. I confess, I tend to load my 7x57 quite modestly - I've got to have some ballistic justification for my 280. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} I agree with you about the 175 Sierra BT - I shot a bunch out of a 280 I had a few years back and digging them out of fresh cottonwood revealed periodic core separation and a surprising amount of expansion given that the loads weren't max. 175 Remington CL bullets and especially 175 Hornadys performed considerably better. I've also had good luck with the 139 Hornadys, 140 gr. Rem CL, 145 gr speer flat base, and Hornady's 154 gr bullets (SP and RN). Don't get me wrong, I am not disputing the quality of premium bullets. I just think some rounds benefit from them much more than others, such as dangerous game calibers and/or mags and/or smaller bores, which historically have had many troubles with bullet integrity. However, if the day has come when the lesser and modestly loaded 6.5mm and 7mms cannot reliably harvest the game within their purview using standard bullets, then the end of standard bullets draws near. I'd better stock up... ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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| <9.3x62> |
P-17 I read a study on these two bullets once. Actually the Nosler 175 semi-spitzer partition. Both were fired from a 7mm-08 and tested at, unfortunately, slightly different impact velocities. 175 gr. Horn penetrated 15" at 2260 fps 175 gr. Nosl penetrated 17" at 2400 fps The Hornady had an expanded diameter of 0.472 The Nosler had an expanded diameter of 0.432 Both had the same recovered weight - about 72%. Summary? I would really be interested in seeing the bullet tested at the same impact velocity. Here, with the Hornady you get a slightly larger wound channel, but slightly less penetration. Penetration and velocity have a nonlinear relationship, so its hard to predict exactly what would have happened had they been fired at the same velocity. Also, the bullet styles are not exactly comparable - I wonder how much difference that makes? This about as close as I can get to answering your question. 9.3 [ 07-17-2003, 00:01: Message edited by: 9.3x62 ] | ||
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| one of us |
Lots of interesting responses. I for one, do not see any need for a premium bullet at 7 X 57 velocities on any game. Two points of interest: As I recall Jack O'Connor's wife Eleanor shot more game than most of us will ever see with a 7 X 57 using 160 grain Sierra boat tails. Seems like she shot 17 head of game in Africa with 19 shots on one safari. Not too bad!!! Also, just call Sierra and ask them about the guy who shot a hell of a big Alaskan brown bear using a 140 grain Sierra in his 7 X 57. Seems this guy could not stand any recoil. Sierra suggested he should slow the 140 grain bullet down somewhat so that it would not expand so much on the big bears. It worked great!! As I recall, it was a one shot kill. What else do we need to know? RF | |||
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quote:I thought the "O'Connor" load for the 7x57 used the old Hornady 162 gr. BTSP. Something like 52 grains of H4895? In any case, I get your point. Ben Reinhardt | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
Ben, Either you're remebering the charge wrong or you're remembering the powder wrong. "52 grains" and "H4895" do not belong in the same sentence with "7x57" unless the words "blown case" appear as well. 9.3 | ||
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Ray, You and 9.3 are gentlemen. I was using the term " at odds" in a sense of humor. Your experiences exceed most of ours added together. 9.3 is in about the same point of life as I am. You don't need a 500 yd rifle capable of taking an elephant, to kill a 75 to 100 lb deer at 50 yds. Shooting is much more enjoyable when you don't have to have your rifle push you back all day. All three of us can shoot more powerful rifles, but at the end of the day, shooting a magnum has not added to our manhood and a smaller caliber has not taken away from it. We know shot placement means a lot more than just putting a lot of mass, velocity and footpounds about anywhere on a game animal. | |||
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One of Us |
Ill throw another bullet into the 7X57 hat, the Speer Deep Shok. Its got features that you would expect from a premium bullet for the cost of a standard. A fluted tip for reliable expansion and an extra thick midsection for toughness, combine those features and you have a bullet that will function at virtually any velocity yet will hold its core much better than other standard boattails. I wouldnt hesitate at all to use them on Elk from a 7mm. I tried some .30 cals and the accuracy is good, I want to try some water jug or clay bag tests on them next. I just wish they made some for my 8X57. | |||
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quote:Once again, I swear I will never try to recall loads from memory! Every time I do it I get it wrong. I always look them up before loading, though, that is for sure. Ben R. | |||
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P-17, If your rifle really likes the 175 gr. Honady RN then if it were me I would load them up and never think twice about it. Jeff | |||
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Re: Jack O'Connor's wife'Load for her 7x57 Mauser. This from his book, THE HUNTING RIFLE. "Using a 160 gr. Speer bullet in front of 52 grains of No. 4831 for a velocity of about 2,650 in a 22 inch barrel my wife has shot elk,black bear, Dall and Stone sheep, mule deer, and Rocky Mountain goats. Her bag with this combination includes two big bull kudu, roan antelope, several bull sable and about a dozen zebra-mostly with one shot." Paul B. | |||
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quote:There you go. So it was a 160 gr. speer. We use the same charge with the 162 gr. Hornady. I ran home at lunch and found it was H4831, but was loath to announce another load on the forum. Thanks! Ben Reinhardt | |||
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You must remember that O'Connor use the "old surplus 4831" and it took more powder, got better velocity and less pressure than todays 4831s.....I have about 30 lbs of that old stuff that I treasure, it makes the .270 cook..It will take about 4 grs. more than a modern 4831 load will in the .270.... | |||
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| one of us |
I'm sure my experience is far less than most of you have, but the 7X57 has been my deer cartridge of choice for several years now. I have come to prefer the Nosler 140 grain Partition for a number of reasons. First, they shoot really well in my Winchester Model 70 Featherweight, next, the performance on game has been flawless, and finally I trust them to get the job done under a wide variety of hunting conditions. Sure, they cost a little more, but the bullet is still a very inexpensive part of my hunting expenses, but a very important one. | |||
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| <'Trapper'> |
Off the subject somewhat but not too much: Have I not read somewhere that Eleanor O'Connor popped a lion with the 7x57??? Can't say for sure but I seem to have read that. Also, she was supposed to have been a wonderful shot but mostly that was written by Jack so who knows? Regards, | ||
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No, she shot a Buffalo with a solid, and the shot was promply follow up with a big bore...She did the same on an elephant I understand,but that was never in print that I know of.. | |||
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| one of us |
The premium bullet such as a Nosler isn't needed for deer, but for elk-sized game I wouldn't use a standard bullet. Since I don't find much need to keep two different boxes of ammo lying around and changing sights constantly, more and more I shoot Nosler partitions or the North Forks. As long as the premium bullet opens well on smaller game (these do) there's no reason to use anything else while hunting. Another consideration is the anatomy of the game, some African animals have vital areas farther forward, so the shot must be through the shoulders, and that's a different task than a between the ribs shot on broadside whitetail. | |||
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| <phurley> |
The question of whether you need a premium bullet for a 7X57 is a good one. Personaly I don't see the need for the premium bullet on deer sized game and down. I use a premium bullet on all game larger than deer. I am very opinionated about a particular premium bullet the, the North Fork. I shoot it in several rifles. My currant 7mm is an STW and have owned the 7mm Rem, shooting it extensively for years. Just yesterday I shot my second straight one hole group with Mike Bradys redesigned 7mm 160 grain North Fork bullet. I couldn't be more pleased with a bullet. Mikes original 7mm bullet would give me one inch groups, and I had no problem with that for a hunting bullet, however Mike was not satisified with that and redesigined the bullet changing the Ogive. -------- I was unaware of the North Fork until Ray Atkinson mentioned it two or three years ago on AR, now I am a total convert to the bullet. That warm fuzzy feeling a good group gives me in a hunting bullet is what this game is all about. I have killed two Bull Elk with it and will be taking it to Alaska this fall. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} Good shooting. | ||
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