The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Re: .300WinMag proponents hostile toward WSM ???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Seafire, I had a fine winter and a satisfying time afield. Hope yours was as good. I agree with so much in your post but the difference between the .308 and .30-06 from the normal 20-22" barrel is almost nonexistent. I have even seen the phenomonon of the .308 besting the '06 velocity from short barrel rifles with both firing 165-168 gr factory loads. Yes, discussions of best cartridge, best bullet, etc is largely nonsense. Ceasing the function of a creatures vital organs with a bullet is nothing new and will hopefully continue to be a valid undertaking as long as there is a USA. Which brings me to my experiences with the 190 gr Match King on whitetail, plus nuisance animals such as feral hogs, housecats, dogs, a coyote, possums, one racoon, armidillos, and a couple of crows. To put it simply: ONE SHOT, ONE KILL. Has always been that way regardless of which make and model of projectile was exitting my barrel. It is practically all my refusal to accept a questionable shot than any wise choice of ammo component or caliber. | ||
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Allen, obviously you are not aware of or choose to ignore the success of the .300WSM in long-range shoots over the past 2 years. I cannot help but wonder how much more impressive it would be if the WSM had been in competition for an additional 40 years. Are you and so many others here so intimidated by the WSM that you refuse to acknoledge it as an alternative to the WinMag? The WSM might eclipse the older cartridge in some aspects, just as the .308 did the .30-06, but it will not likely become extinct any more than the .30-06 did. | |||
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I think you guys should just go out and buy a 30-378 Weatherby or a 308 Warbird and be done w/ this arguement. Reloader | |||
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Quote from Ruff "As you are likely aware chambers vary, barrels vary, and different component lot # perform slightly differently. Also as no pressure barrel was used then what was safe was interpretted by the individual or group developing the data." How do you know , Ruff , that the professional balisticians at Speer , who have been in the business of publishing reloading data for many years , did not work up their data in a pressure barrel ? Quote from Ruff "Thus my example and yours prove nothing." If you say so Ruff . Then also , your example of your accuracy load for your WSM with the 190 gr match Sierra at 2960 fps proves nothing ? Do you have a strain gauage on your WSM barrel ? Hodgdon data shows about an average 2860 fps for that bullet in the WSM , at nearly 64000 psi . You must like a little + with your P . Of course , that might be neccesary when you delibrately hamstring yourself with a smaller case . Again , use the WSM if you like , it operates at a good level of performance in it's own right . Just don't kid yourself that it will equal a larger case . | |||
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Quote: Ouch! I must be getting old! To me the 30/06; the 30/40; maybe the 270, are "fine old cartridges". Oh, well...  | |||
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I find it disapointing that consumers would sooner buy a new cartridge concept, than greater attention to detail, or better component parts. Wouldn't it be refreshing to hear, or read, "Remington announces all steel bottom metal", or "The new Winchester Model 70's will now come standard with spring steel extractors". Unfortunately, most consumers don't care or know the difference so firearms companies continue to peddle their wares with new twists on old concepts. Chuck | |||
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Quote: Very well said Allen, agreed. | |||
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Quote: More examples, from the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 4th Edition: Test firearm Win M70, 24" barrel, 1:10 twist 150 gr @ 3200 fps, 76.1 gr H4350 and 79.5 gr RL22 168 gr @ 3100 fps, 77.7 gr RL22 180 gr @ 3000 fps, 75.7 gr RL22 190 gr @ 2900 fps, 73.9 gr RL22 200 gr @ 2500 fps, 60.2 gr IMR4350, 63.5 gr IMR4831, 63.7 gr H450, 65.9 gr RL22, and 69.5 gr IMR7828 As you are likely aware chambers vary, barrels vary, and different component lot # perform slightly differently. Also as no pressure barrel was used then what was safe was interpretted by the individual or group developing the data. Thus my example and yours prove nothing. Quote: By "highly doubt" you mean you do not have the slightest idea. Much was involved in getting that level of performance and remaining within save pressure and requisite SD. I do agree that the velocity difference between the magnums and the .30-06 and .308 equates to nothing in the game fields. | |||
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But I have to ask the question. How does that young boy's mistake hurt your hunting? How does his warped sense of what he needs affect you? Its his gun, his problem? Why do you care so much that that boy wants a WSM? I could care less if everyone had 416 rigbys to kill deer. I won't. Doesn't affect me. I mean when I was 12 I dreamed of haveing a 338Win mag for deer hunting in Ky. Sure it was stupid. But wanted the biggest badest gun I could find. All young hunters go thru this I believe. | |||
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" If it ain't broke, don't fix it" Yes I own the origanal .300 winchester magnum in " The Rifleman's rifle". Winchester model 70.  | |||
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Rouge6, idiots can be found within any aspect of life. It will continue to exist because there is no intelligence test required before an authorization is issued to reproduce. | |||
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Ruff, Good to see you back online. Hope you had a good winter. Well said posting. I own a 300 Winchester but am not much of a Mag fan at all. However, helping others develope loads etc, I have noticed that the difference in a 300 WM and the 300 WSM is not all that much. You are really splitting hairs. I own and shoot the '06, and think it is superior to the 308. However that is more opinion that face. Numbers one a chart, yeah you might see a difference. In the field, I would never think a guy is undergunned with a 308 vs the guy with the 06. Heck a guy who can shoot real well with his 30/30 vs another guy with a 300 Mag whatever, and is in reality afraid of it. Which guy is overgunned, and which one is really undergunned. I would rather be in the woods with the 30/30 guy than the mag guy who is afraid of his round. ( It is not the round, just when a guy can't handle it, and being a retired Marine, this does not include you Ruff. I know you can shoot partner). We should all be thankful we have all of these choices instead of making ridiculous arguements about this one is better than this one. What matters most is the ability of the guy pulling the trigger. 3,000 foot pounds in the wrong place is not superior to 500 foot pounds in the right place. At best if it competes it is sheer luck. Good to see you around Ruff! Cheers and Good shooting Seafire | |||
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I am not hostile towards the 300WSM. I am a little put off about the absurd claims made about it and the overblown marketing effort accompanying these new cartridges. To me the effort would have been better spent improving new gun quality or adding additional options to existing models. | |||
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A kid I took bow hunting this past season wanted to buy a new rifle for deer hunting and maybe elk every once in a while. A good ol' 270 would have been about perfect for him, but he read in one of the fish and hunt mags that the WSM was the best of the best, could out shoot anything and would spank the old mags. Well of course he orders a T3 lite in 300WSM, a decent choice for someone that has shot a little more. Now he wants a 243 because its fast and doesn't kick much. Last week a younger friend and I where discussing his 300 weatherby and how he loads it up. We where interrupted by a another friend proudly staying that he had the best, most accurate and most powerfully of all 300's a 300wsm. I stated, "you don't reload do you?" The short mag guy says, "no you can't reload the 300WSM its to new and to technical." "Really?", says I. "You could buy dies before the brass and rifle even showed up." "Well," says short mag expert "actually I only shoot about a box a year but its the best." I says, "yea, its a great cartridge."  | |||
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I wish the discourse here were never hostile. All we are doing is talking about guns that we really like. I did not like the 308 Win when it came out as it replaced my favorite but I got over it. I have owned 300 WM's and still have one. I have had better chambers in that belted mag, just by chance, than similar cartridges. Many cartridges are just fine and it's true that we have our favoites. On another forum the topic of the 270 WSM came up and the 270 Win fans did not stay cool. | |||
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Here we go again. Some people just dont get it. You can state facts and they just overlook everything. Since you use the old 1963 example, I will just say one thing. If the two had been invented in the same time period, you wouldn't even know what a 300 win mag was. They would have just played out. Reloader | |||
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"suddenly every fanatically devoted fan of the old .300WinMag is disparaging the new caliber in every imaginable way"?? huh-uh! Not me! If I'm perfectly happy with my old fashion 300 WM why would I attack something new that does the same thing in a slightly different way? Doesn't change my rifle, its capabilities, or my satisfaction in it one whit. But since I've already got a 300 mag I don't necessarily have to run out and buy a short mag. But the concept is cool and I certainly wouldn't try to dissuade anyone wanting a 300 WM-type rifle (short, long or otherwise) from considering the WSM if it appeals to them. But then maybe I'm not fanatically devoted. -WSJ | |||
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