Can anyone elaborate on the two in differences of expansion/penetration? Perhaps I should call Speer.

Looking at 130gr 7mm in 7-08 and 7BR rifle (2600-2700 mv) on deer.

My (admittedly limited) experience has been that the Speer boattail is rather frangible and provides significantly less penetration than the corresponding flat base bullets. In testing I did in dry paper medium a number of years ago, the Speer boattail (a .30/180gr) had the least structural integrity and penetration of any of the similar bullets tested.

If the game is larger than deer, I would be more comfortable with the flat base. However, in the application you anticipate, the boattail would probably be just fine.

I have found the same to be generally true of other boattails (as compared to flat base bullets of comparable construction). The one exception is the Nosler Solid Base and Ballistic Tip, whose solid rear sections provide somewhat more penetration than their rapid expansion would otherwise indicate.

6.5: Info on bullets in the Speer reloading manuals states that the flat base Hot Cores are "tougher" bullets than the boat tails. My experience (120gr 257 bullets) confirms that. But at 2600 to 2700, for deer, I would bet that either bullet would perform just fine.

I have used the 145gr flatbase in my .280 & find they hold together better than the boat tails. Boat tail bullets tend to shed or "squirt" the cores out on impact. The Speer is a bit soft at speeds over 2900fps but you are probably ok below 2700fps impact vel.

Hey Fred,

My first deer, a nice 8 pt was shot with a 7 Rem mag, 'downloaded to 280 specs or thereabouts' so I thought according to an older speer manual. 145 BTSP. The bullet hit shoulder point on 30 yards and exploded, destroyed one lung, shrapnel hit other, deer went a few leaps and down, the should literally was completely destroyed -big buck. I found out later the manual's loads were 'HOT' when I thought they were not, as the test gun was a Savage unlike my Rem., if I remember right, and Speer said the initial loads were found to be 'warm' so instead of under 3k, I was shooting a good bit over, but at 30 yds it may not have mattered much, darned sure ruined a lot of meat of that big deer though.

I doubt a 130 in my 7br or 7/08 would have that much destruction, but if the flat base 'behaved' better, heck it is a tad cheaper to boot, than I will go with it. I believe with it vs BT, it will have more bullet gripping the neck, providing perhaps more tension and that alone could help accuracy. I do hear many say FB are sometimes more accurate to moderate ranges than a boat tail.

My BR needs a 120-130 for speed and trajectory to get me further range, as I don't want to 'lob' 140 or heavier and expansion might get iffy out there, and I don't want to just 'drill holes' with it on a deer w/o tearing up something on the way thru. Thanks.

If you are expecting a difference in terminal performance between Speer's Hot Core and non-Hot Core bullets, you will be disappointed.

The Hot Core bullets' cores are NOT BONDED to the jacket in any way, and are just as apt to shed their cores as any other cup-and-draw projectile with a similar jacket design. If Speer's Hot Core bullets are tougher than a non-Hot Core bullet of the same size & weight, it would be because they have beefed up the jacket inside so it would not expand as quickly.

It is true that a boattail bullet of CONVENTIONAL design will shed its core earlier than a bullet of identical jacket design.

This does NOT apply to boattails such as Nosler BT's, on which the boattail shape is made from the solid base of the jacket material and is not replicated inside where the core base meets the jacket. These bullets are, as far as expansion goes, essentially "flat-base" bullets.....

I am not needing a premium bullet, but do not want excess core slippage.

Years ago, my 10" 30-30 TC shot 125 ballistic tips thru milk jug with water, some wood, and into phone book. Cannot remember order of 'ballistic medium' but the cores slipped routinely leaving about 30-40 grains of lead separate from jacket.

Funny I hear many people use that bullet exiting double lung hits even in rifles shooting faster than 2,000 I was shooting.

Anyway, I guess I need to get educated on what a HOT Core bullet is, and what it will and will not do.

Thanks.

My experience with the Speer Hot-core is with only the 165 gr. 30 caliber bullet shot from an 18.5" barreled rifle. Vwlocity was 2550 FPS at the muzzle. With one exception, every deer shot was a complete pass through. In the case of the one exception, the deer was facing me at a distance if 250 yards. The bullet entered just below the neck traveled to a back leg breaking it. It was the only bullet (Speer Hot-core) that I have ever recovered. it retained 65 percent of it's original weight. personally, I don't much care for boattail bullets, finding that the flat based bulelts seem to be a bit more accurate in my rifles. That, and the fact that most boattail bullets have the reputation of shedding their cores when they hit game.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
...Anyway, I guess I need to get educated on what a HOT Core bullet is, and what it will and will not do...

Hey 6.5BR, I guess I'll have to disagree with ElD's post. There is a significant difference between the Hot-Cor and regular BTSPs made by Speer.

The Hot-Cor bullets have a "molten core" poured into the straight wall jacket. The heat burns off the Forming Die lubricant and allows the Lead to get a fairly good attachment with the jacket. It is not "Bonded" as in having a Flux added and the Core becoming Soldered to the Jacket.

The non Hot-Cor bullets, like the BTSPs, have an internally Tapered Jacket and a Cold Core is inserted into the Jacket. No attempt is made to remove the Forming Die lubricant.

The BTSP normally expands quicker and wider than the Hot-Cor version of the same weight. It has a higher potential to have Core Slippage, but if the Velocity is down a bit(why I recommend beyond 200yds), then most of the time they will provide Exits on Shoulder-to-Shoulder shots.

It is possible for a Hot-Cor to have separation, but it is not normal. That generally requires extremely high Impact Velocity into a Shoulder. I've never had it happen with a SAFE MAX Load in my 7mm-08 on Deer as close as 10yds.

All of this can be clearly seen in any Speer Manual. If you plan to use Speer Bullets, it is a good idea to have one of their Manuals.

Thanks Hot Core, actually I remember I do its buried under some others in my garage, fairly new edition.

Doing a ballistic check, its very little difference between the 2 even at 400 yds, I believe 30-40 fps, if I remember correctly. The FB may just be the way to go minimizing any risk of a slipped core, just in case I run into a heavy bone.

I think I will use them for both 7br and 708, and if I want to really reach out there then I might go with 140-150 high bc bullets, but most shots I take are not more than 200-250 yds where I usually hunt, but I could on occasion get a shot to around 400, at that distance either wt. loss would not be so much an issue at lower fps.

Clarify, longer shots= 7/08 with the 140-150's, but I would not hesitate on a good shot to shoot with 130s if that is what I had.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
Clarify, longer shots= 7/08 with the 140-150's, but I would not hesitate on a good shot to shoot with 130s if that is what I had.

Hey 6.5BR, I hate the kind of response I'm getting ready to give you - it depends - on a lot of things.

For example, when I was much younger I hunted a bunch with a 308Win loaded with various Round Nose 150gr bullets. Made all kinds of kills out to about 400yds +or- a bit. But, I shot a lot of them, at the longer distances, and was very familiar with their trajectory.

With the 130gr Speer BTSP, I've made kill shots a longer than that, but prefer not to get into actual distances. When I know a really l-o-n-g shot opportunity might present itself, then I try my best not to take my 7mm-08, because I have other rifles " I " feel more comfortable using at those distances.

Dig out your Speer Manual. Estimate the velocity you will be able to get and subtract 150fps. Now look in the Trajectory Tables in the back of the Manual and see what the Trajectory has the potential to do way out yonder. But, that does NOT mean that is the actual trajectory, it is just an estimate.

You really need to create your own Drop Chart by using the Bullet(s) you want to shoot at the distances where your groups are still small enough to give you confidence in being able to make a clean 1-shot kill.

The bad news is I doubt there is enough time between now and this coming hunting season to get all the practice a person really needs for long distance shooting.

I can't tell you how far you can make a clean kill, but by studying the Trajectory Tables, looking at the retained Energy down range, and actually shooting at longer distances, you will understand quickly what I'm trying to get across.

I really hate those kinds of answers.

You won't be disappointed with the performance of the Hot Core bullets. In my experience there is a big difference between the Speer BT and flatbase(Hot Core). The Speer BT performs alot like the ballistic tip whereas the Hot Core performs alot like the Partition. The one hot core I have recovered from a deer (head on shot and bullet lodged in the rear ham) was a perfect mushroom and 67% weight retention. My experience is based on the 120gr .257, 120gr .264 and 145gr .284. My new .270 will be fed a diet of 130gr hot cores


Bama7x57

Thanks Hot Core, and all, just to let you know I have a range that I sight dead on at 200, and shoot at 330 and 415 yds. My longest shot/kill was at 400 yds with my 6BR and a 105 Amax, I shot another deer seconds later at 200/spine shot. The long one got double lunged. Yes, when you practice as I had with that rifle, at that distance, it was easy.

Not bragging, but I had a solid rest, and my 6-24x mil dot, let's say I knew where to hold, second dot just a tad over center of chest, and it hit dead center.

Complete pass thru, the 105 is shooting over 2800, perhaps 2850, I did chrono some not long ago.

I know where to hold based on shooting at paper, not reading charts, nice guides, but not good enough.

Amazing what accuracy will do for you in the field, but I cannot rely on perfect shot presentation to use my 6BR as a sole rifle, but would if I had to-just not try any fancy shots.

I rarely have, or expect to get shots over 200-250, but want to be confident my equipment is capable if needed. I never thought I would shoot 400 that day, but did not hesitate. Deer ran about 20-25 yds. About 1000 lbs retained due to high BC, you could see the bullet hit the deer hard, and it had trouble staying on its feet to get that far, amazingly wicked bullet performance from a 'too small' of a round/bullet combo, but it worked. The 200 yd spine shot-bullet vaporized, no exit, but deer dropped right there-never moved.

Can you imagine the smile on my face. One shot, one kill is what I like, no trailing where possible...in the ideal world....

Thanks again for all replies.

Sorry bama, but there is no way a Speer Hotcore anything has terminal perf. like a NP. The tests I have done & couple of deer/antelope tell me the 145gr/7mm is soft, almost like a NBT at impact speeds above 2800fps. I would not even try this bullet on anything but a broadside shot. Yes, the two kills I have had were complete pass throughs @ less than 150yds, but the exit hole was as big as my fist. Recovered test bullets show shallow penetration & only 50-53% wt. retention.

I just usually use their flat base bullets...

I don't like boattails...

Their mag tip is a good opening bullet at high or low velocity...

good luck...

cheers
seafire

Having use the Speer Hotcor's in heavy for caliber weights in 270 and 308 calibers and the 160 grain in 284 I will have to agree they perform similarly to the Nosler partition. Try it some time. The weights Speer recommends for deer open quickly as they should, being designed for deer sized animals.

At the velocity you mention,
why use a boat tail, it would probaly work fine, but the only advantage a boat tail gives you is trajectory.
At 2700 FPS, you should not be shooting very far anyway. I might just load up the 130 grain Flat base 1st and if its accurate go with it.
I supose if you are a really good shot you might go beyond 300 yards, but that is plenty long enough for most guys...tj3006

quote:

Having use the Speer Hotcor's in heavy for caliber weights in 270 and 308 calibers and the 160 grain in 284 I will have to agree they perform similarly to the Nosler partition.

I'd be surprised as hell if a cup-and draw bullet of ANY kind behaved like the Nosler Partition. The reason the Nosler Partition was created was strictly because there were no bullets available that could be depended upon to give the required performance every time they hit an animal. So John Nosler designed and produced one that did!

I will admit that I have not shot game with a Speer Hot-Core bullet, as I invariably use Nosler Partitions for ALL HUNTING. Yes I know they cost more. Money well spent!!

I do this for two reasons: I like to use a bullet for hunting that I KNOW will perform the same way every time it hits a game animal. I like to use a bullet that range practice has proven to me is very accurate. The Partition fulfils both these requirements for me. For all I know, the new Nosler Accubond may very well meet them as well. I have some to test.

But I have not done so yet, since lately I have been devoting all my attention to flintlocks!
Do you all think a .735", 597.5-grain ball travelling 1500 FPS will give a complete passthru on a deer?

The truth is that the reason I seldom used the Nosler Partitions is that I never had any problems with the Speer Hotcor's not penetrating or breaking bone. This "simple cup and core" phrase and routine usually comes from those so set on their particular bullet style that they never use any other. The heavier Speer Hotcors have thick jackets that don't pancake and cores that for some reason act as if they are bonded to their jackets. These heavier Speer bullets typically don't open to excessivly wide frontal area which also helps with penetration. This all said, yest the 150 grain Nosler Partition from my 270 is an excellent bullet.

Uh, yea, that ball at 900fps may go thru, or slower!

I went lengthwise thru a mule deer with a 150 pt in a 270, neck to ham, stopped just at the before the hide, as it flipped base forward, blew the parachute jacket closed and stopped. Shot about 2850-2900 I'd reckon 24" IMR 4350=52.0 gr, in around zero temp in colorado, deer about 250 yds give or take. It put the hurt on him. Short blood trail......

I could see a case for using a partition for hunts, heck I have saved a few dimes plinking with pistol bullets 158 jhp Rem bulks, in my 350 Rem mag, ought to see the destruction on milk jugs at 200 yds......300 getting a lot of drop and drag.

That pistol bullet in a deer broadside thru lungs at 200 should drop them instantly with shock effect, but I will use rifle bullets as they can go thru bone when needed.

My 7BR would be ideal with the old 120 solid base, but I am not up to paying the 'excessive premium' Nosler wants to get rich on their ballistic tips, etc. The partition would be too 'hard' at the speeds and I need a lighter bullet in that round.....120s and 130s do fine.

I think the softer Sierra BTSP 140gr might work well about 2500-2550 in the BR, but speed may limit distance. In the BR I need a soft enough bullet to expand, but a bullet to hold together better than say the 120 vmax which would likely be a nice bullet on many shots, but softer than a ballistic tip.

I will be shooting the 130 hot cores for right now, little more down range punch than 120 but better trajectory for my 7br, around 2700 or so mv.

I tend to normally use 139/140 in my 708, a 150-154 argument could be made, but have used lighter bullets. Many people claim the 120 ballistic tip in the 708 is DOA deadly...consistently. No experience to speak from myself.

quote:

This "simple cup and core" phrase and routine usually comes from those so set on their particular bullet style that they never use any other.

Your Honor, I plead guilty to this, but with an explanation in extenuation & mitigation!! I once used Sierra bullets. I thought they looked "cool", and were admittedly very accurate. Then I was stationed in Alaska for three years. Up there (Faibanks) I met a doctor's wife who'd shot everything in the Far North with her .270 Winchester using Nosler 150-grain Partition bullet handloads, including BIG bears! She managed to take most her quarry with one shot, including a quite large Polar Bear (this was before the Endangered Species act).

Because of her success, I decided to try the Noslers, and have never switched back! They worked great for me in Alaska on all game I shot up there, including two pretty good bears. I had a .375 H&H also, which I carried some. But the only shots I ever got at a game animal in AK was when I was carrying my .270, or a .308 Norma (1 caribou).

Then I spent several years at Ft. Hood, shooting mainly Central TX whitetails.
Since I had a lot of loaded Nosler Partition ammo left over from Alaska and a stint at Ft. Carson CO., I used it. However, I'll be the first to admit that the game around Ft. Hood does NOT NEED Partition bullets!

I've used some of the BT Speer bullets in various calibers, and will agree with the others. I believe they are a softer bullet even than Sierra boattails, more like the ballistic tips.

6.5 BR said,

quote:

My 7BR would be ideal with the old 120 solid base, but I am not up to paying the 'excessive premium' Nosler wants to get rich on their ballistic tips, etc. The partition would be too 'hard' at the speeds and I need a lighter bullet in that round.....120s and 130s do fine.

I most heartily agree with you on the cost of Nosler's ballistic Tips. When "Old Man" Nosler retired and son Bob "Greedyguts" took over, one of the first things he did was reduce the amount of ballistic Tips from 100 to the box to 50, and added insult to injury by raising the price. on Bob Nosler. I still have one box left and a partial of the 100 count 140 gr. 7mm Ballistic tips and when they've been shot up, I will buy no more. The one time I used partitions, it was a disaster and only by the grace of God and a lot of luck did I not lose the biggest Mule Deer buck I've ever shot. maybe partitions are fine for the heavier animals, but when they didn't do the job on a deer that weighed 295 pounds skinned, gutted, the head removed and the legs cut off at the knees, well either I had bad bullets or they're not all they're claimed to be. About all I can figure out is the deer was about 35 yards away and trhe load pushed the 180 gr. Nosler PTs at just about 2800 FPS. No wound channel was more than about one inch, give or take about 1/8 inch. No, it wasn't poor shooting. The first shot put a thumb sized groove in the top of the heart, shot number two was through the lungs, shot three and four were missed, (Hey, I'm getting a bit rattled here. What have I got, a buller proof deer?) Shot number five broke the neck. As I gutted the deer out, I looked real careful for the bullet damage and there literally was almost none. I believe that if I'd had my normal deer load (180 gr. Siera Pro-hunter) in my 30-06 that day, the first shot would have totally destroyed the heart, end of problem. I've been quite hesitant to use Nosler Partitions ever since, or any other premium bullet for that matter.
I know. I shouldn't pass judgement on one situation, but them's the facts of the matter.
FWIW, this happened back in 1978, FWIW.
Paul B.

Hey Paul,

I think that inconsistent bullet performance of years ago with high vel small bores is one reason why Elmor Keith and others since have loved mid/larger bores, less to go wrong with more mass/less speed.

Jack O'Connor used partitions often, I guess there are so many variable, shot angle, velocity, exactly what is/is not hit with the bullet, even twist rate might affect terminal performance, not to mention like gun powder, who is to say that lots of jacket material are of the same hardness, thickness, etc, as well as the hardness of the lead, not to mention other manufacturing 'potential variables.'

I do believe the most commonly hunted big game animal in this country-the white tail rarely needs more than a conventional bullet in a non-magnum caliber.

I read someone awhile back who used a 338 Win Mag and Partitions, I believe 250 gr and shot a mule deer I believe, at less than 90 yards, perhaps even half that.....and supposedly had a GOOD hit, and the deer either went a long way, or I believe never seen again and he was POSITIVE he hit it in the lungs.

I sometimes wonder if premium bullets sometimes pencil in and out without enough internal damage on occasions-for whatever the reason.

I am not saying it happens often, but it has been reported and neither a hunter, nor a suffering animal would want a less than DOA kill where possible. There may/likely never be a perfect bullet.

I think mfg. over time have whether by accident or choice made bullets in a different way from coming to market to today. The B-tip is a prime example, too soft when introduced, beefed up, now we have 'accubond b-tips' if I am not mistaken.

I guess jacketed rifle bullets cannot/should not be expected to be 100% consistent, but mfg. quality control should minimize performance variance.

Hey, I'd be PO'd as much as anyone if I had a 'premium' fail and likely never use it again.

A good friend went to Africa one year, took a pre-64 '06 with 165 X bullets, and said great bullet. The next safari, several problems and he is not going back, he switched back to 165 partitions, point being what worked good once, did not repeat itself later.

Yep, when Nosler went to a 50 count and thought all of us would be a bunch of dumb asses and not see the whopping price jump, I thought screw it. Greedy ...astards. Leupold is pricing themselves too high for me.

A bushnell elite is a great value IMHO, and if I spend more, a Swarovski or equivalent will come home, but I have not felt the NEED.

I know premium bullets have done well for many, but they may not be the 'end-all' as failures may/can/will happen with them all in my estimation. I try to buy/use a good bullet for chose ctg's and applications.....most times the game dies, on occasion they go further than expected or worse-get away.

I guess Bob Nosler forgot what his dad killed game with before the partition.....conventional bullets.

If I use them in the future, it will most likely be a 'have some on hand' and load a few to check POI, and hunt, but I have honestly not purchased many, or ANY Noslers in a long time. I cannot support a company that price gouges and folks, it cannot be that much more expensive to produce them, and after all the increase in sales, mfg costs should go down, except raw material and that is the same for Sierra, etc.

Well again, I do appreciate hearing feedback from those that have much more experience with Speers than I do.

Here is a 7mm 140g Part and a 6.5mm 120g speer hotcore. These are typical examples of my test. Partition retained 62% and speer hotcore retained 68%. The partition 90% of time loses its nose and I have never had a hotcore come apart. The partition is a great bullet but I feel it is no better than the hotcore in the guns I use 257 roberts,260,7x57.



bama

Here is a side view, BTW the speer is on the right



bama

As they say, a pic is worth.....

Proof in the pudding.....

great info

It would be good for us, perhaps bad for some bullet makers to do head to head comparisons of all major rifle bullets, same medium, various velocities, all calibers.

THEN it would eliminate the confusion and quesswork in a lot of this. Car companies do crash tests, and I am sure companies do 'in-house' testing, but I would love to see more test done in a scientific controlled manner.

http://www.35cal.com/35bullet_study/35bullet_study1.html

Articles like this are very valuable to me, that is the kind of stuff I would like to see in every issue of gun mags

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
...It would be good for us, perhaps bad for some bullet makers to do head to head comparisons of all major rifle bullets, same medium, various velocities, all calibers....

Hey 6.5BR, Minus "all calibers" there is the excellent Gary Sciuchetti Bullet Test.

I've never seen a better Bullet Test done anywhere in the Civilian world. And to make it even better, the results are so close to the same "On-Game" that they will amaze anyone how does any actual Game killing.
---

The more "Game" killing a person does, the more he will understand that Elmer Keith provided excellent insight to those of us who were fortunate to have read him.

Thanks Hot Core, I am working on pulling that link up, it did not 'pop right up'

I had a "typo" in the above post. I've corrected it and it should open for you now. If not, the actual link is below.

It should be at http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg or it used to be. If you can't get it to work, you can contact Mr. Sciuchetti at:

gsciuchetti@yahoo.com

Or:

Gary D. Sciuchetti
14610 E. Bill Gulch Road
Mead, WA 99021

The entire Chart and report was available for $15 from him and is well worth the money. The Chart can be framed and hung in your Reloading Room. Just an excellent reference.

Thanks, I remember seeing that somewhere likely on AR forum before, that is a very good report.

Needs to be published more.

I called Wolf Pub in AZ a few days ago; asked when that article was published. She said, 1994, IIRC. Pretty sure the Nosler 180 BT was the "thin" verison then. Now, it's jacket walls, near the base, are thicker, aka Accubond.

I'd love to see an updated version of this test with new/improved/changed bullets tested the same.