The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Developing a load and switching to Northforks qustionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Hey guys, I'm going to try to do my load development for my 308 norma this weekend. I'm going to do the traditional 3 rounds starting at the bottom, then half grain till a grain under than probably do every .3 grains. My question is this, I'm not able to afford to develop with the northforks I plan to hunt with, so am using 180g sierras and will switch later, the northfork box says reduce loads 5% because they create less pressure IIRC.... so, does that mean I need less powder for same velocity with these bullets? Should I just stay under max 5% see if it makes pressure and switch out bullets? Or should I stay with same load and change bullets and test it? (wouldn't these running lower pressure mean higher velocity than standard non-banded bullets?) I'm more concerned about pressure and accuracy than squeezing out every bit of velocity. If it matters I'm using H4831 (I also have the H4831SC, but when I ordered powder last time nobody had the short cut), hodgdon lists 67-73 grains. I guess looking at it I'll jump a whole grain till about 70 then go in half grain increments. Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | ||
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I don't agree with his load info but that is me. He states that if you take a factory load measure the velocity then take another bullet of the same weight and increase the powder until you have the same velocity you have a pressure equal to factory. IE Equal pressure means equal velocity. He says his bullets take 4-5% less powder to reach the same velocity. That would say 4-5% less powder for equal pressure. Per his site that would say his bullets generate MORE pressure. Per his info you would need to lower your own load. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I have no problem with Northfork bullets.....as a matter of fact I use them too.....but when working up a "max" load use the bullet you plan to be using and not a substitute. It's not cheap but the only way to get the most out of them! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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well at 70+ a box I'll settle for "a lot" out of them and not most  In seriousness, like I said I'm not searching for every fps I can get, I want to hit that sweet spot of accuracy and velocity. I have buddies and family that are always on the edge of too much pressure in my opinion, if I need that much oomph I'll step up in chambering. so once I settle on a load it wont' be "hot". I have no problem getting to the load with the sierras and then backing off a grain or two and going back up with the northforks, that's the thing I'm trying to figure out, if they have 4-5% less pressure I don't need to back off much right? (my logic may be fuzzy, it is monday after all). I really wish I could use that Audette method, seems it requires a lot less bullets, but I don't have that kind of yardage available. I have thought about taking the press up and doing one round at each level to get pressure signs, then back off and try three (I read somewhere that usually a grain under listed max is most accurate, but found it hard to believe since every manual has a different max listed  )Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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Dago Red ----- I have shot many North Fork bullets in several chamberings. I start 2 grains below Max and work up and have never got in trouble. They usually are faster than any other bullet with same load, exceptions do occur depending on the barrel. I also have shot many Sierra's or Nosler Blems developing the load then went to the North Forks with no problems. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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thanks phurley, I appreciate it. I'll let you guys know how it goes. My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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Dago Red--What will you be hunting that requires a premium bullet? Put a Remington Core Lock or Winchester bulk packed in the boiler room and where you need to have spent good money is in the knife you are carrying. | |||
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ha, I have plenty of good knives, just hunting deer. If I'm going to go to the trouble of loading my own I'm going to maximize my efforts. and if I'm spending hundreds to travel to Utah to hunt then I'm going to make sure to give myself every bit of help I can. In the end I'll probably just carry a good old buck 110, not as fancy as some of my customs but has sentimental value and will get the job done. Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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I just can't get past the price on Northfolk. If I felt the need to go premium for deer, I'd go Accubond at 1/3 the cost. I don't use magnums on deer so regular cup n core works just fine. | |||
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In .30 cal, 180gr Ballistic Tip is more then you will ever need for deer. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot elk with one. | |||
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No question about it and since A-Frames are the equal IMO they have to compete.....I'd buy A-frames easily and I do. That said.....for deer, I still use interlocks.....as good as one needs! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I'm shooting Northforks in my .338 and .270 WSM. After I've found the accurate load and have measured the velocity, I drop the powder charge by about 5% then work back up in 1 gr. increments. I've found NF's to hold together better than Partitions - I know, they're supposed to lose about 15% of their weight but the NF is also slightly more accurate IMHE. Like Phurley-5, I've never had a problem with them and for the same velocity I find with my "work-up" bullet, I use slightly less powder for the NF to attain the same velocity. I'd agree that for deer sized game, you don't need them. However, in my .270 WSM, I want a better constructed bullet since we could run into a grizzly where we hunt. I'm taking my .270 WSM on our moose hunt and hope to find out how well a .27 cal. NF handles them as well. Good luck. Bear in Fairbanks Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes. I never thought that I'd live to see a President worse than Jimmy Carter. Well, I have. Gun control means using two hands. | |||
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At the current prices I wouldn't buy them, I bought them back when they were about the same as other premium bullets and have fantastic reviews by people that have used them. That was when I could have used them here in CA, then the law changed saying no lead in my area, they sit on the shelf. Any more in my rifles that I can buy hornady's superformance gilded metal bullets I'm doing that. These that I have will likely last me many many years of hunting at the frequency that I actually get in the field. Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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Hello Scottfromdallas, I couldn't agree with your more. Our bullets do have a higher price than most (we are cheaper than the original TBBC even at 1990 dollars). Since we have bought this business, the price of copper has gone from $1.5lb to $6.50lb and the economy being what it is didn't help. But that is really here nor there. We could make cheaper bullets by using gilding metals and lead alloys along with subsituting CNC Swiss lathes with high speed presses but that would not make the best bullet we know how to make. Our process is time consuming. It take 23 steps just to make a bonded soft point. Our credo is we do not compromise on performance. Unfortunately, with our performance comes a cost. I agree with many of the posters that one does not need our bullets for deer but having that confidence that your bullet is not going to fail no matter what angle or what bone is hit is worth a lot. This does not mean though a hunter should be lazy and not work for the best shot possible but sometimes perfect broadside shots are not available. I highly disagree with Antelope Sniper, the Ballistic Tip is not a good bullet for every shot and is definately not a good bullet for elk. The only animal I have lost is due to a BT and this was a blacktail doe. Found her two weeks later down in a ravine, hit the shoulder bone, the bullet exploded and just broke the shoulder, did not enter the chest cavity. Living in Oregon with heavy rains, the blood spoor was nill and she died of starvation since she could not walk. Even a Core-lokt would have done better. We could argue days over which bullet is better, and many animals have been killed with the old cup and core and they still will to do so. But with the cost of everything else it takes to go hunting, why try and save a few bucks when the bullet is the final word of the hunt. The monetary math does not make sense to risk losing an animal over 5-10 greenbacks. I will not preach to you how you should spend your money. It is yours and you can do what you wish with it. Just give us a try and see the difference. We do not make "plinking" bullets, we make the best hunting bullet on the market. You will find none better as far as performance and penetration goes. We are not sleak, we don't have "junk in the trunk", and we don't have a plastic prophylactic on the front. We have designed our bullet line to open at the lowest velocity possible while being able to withstand any super magnum velocity. They are designed to place a tremendous amount of shock onto the quarry so the hunter knows when the animal has been hit. In the end, I think you will find them to be the most accurate hunting bullet you will shoot, if not, we will work with you or we will buy your box back. Regards, John Vice-President North Fork Technologies | |||
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Well said North Fork. | |||
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I really like the NFs in the 6,5x55. While indeed not needed for roedeer I like the good feeling of being prepared if a wildboar or stag shows up. And they are very accurate too in my rifle. | |||
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John, in what year did you loose that blacktail deer with the Nosler Ballistic Tip? Was is somewhere around 1984-1985 When they first came out? The first year the ballistic tips came out the jackets were too thin, and they would perform as you described. I witnessed those first year failures myself. Since then the Ballistic tips been redesigned 3 or 4 times, and is not the same bullet. In addition, I specified the 180gr for a reason. With most loadings, this would keep the muzzle in the 3000-3100 fps level where they perform well. I agree that a 150gr BT at 3400 would not be a reasonable choice for elk. Above 3100 FPS, even the 4th generation BT's may not hold together well. At these higher velocities it is wise to switch to a more robust design, such as a bonded bullet. You mention an important subtalty that is often lost on the fans of the bonded bullet. They are complex to make. When a process becomes more complex, there exits more opportunity for eccentricity, which may effect accuracy, or cause the bullets to cost $1.50 each. For this reason, when performance requirements exceeds a give bullets design limits, I often opt for a heavier, but equally simple design opposed to something that requires 34 step to create. The 180gr .308 BT and the .338 200gr BT are both very effective on elk. I wish Nosler would make more of the heavy for caliber BT's, but then, they would sell fewer of their higher margin bonded bullets. Although I've never shot a North Fork, I can's say I've ever heard a negative word about them (except for the price). On you website, the pictures of you bullets with impact velocites between 1800-2200 show excellent performance. I do however have a question. Do you have any pictures you can post of impacts in the 2900-3300fps range? I'd be very interested to see what they look like. Thanks AS. | |||
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Hello Antelope Sniper, The year was 1998. It was the new hunting BT in 6mm (.243) shooting a .243 win. The weight was 100gr and loading was slow at 2500fps. This was the time where I really started to question some of the makers' marketing and test results. I will see what I can dig up. We do have ultra-high velocity photos, we just don't like to post them due to the fact that someone will try and replicate the velocity in their rifle when we use a very large test barrel that will take the pressures needed to drive bullets that fast. In general, since there is only so much lead in the front nose, the mushroom just moves down the shaft of the bullet the faster one goes. Weight loss is due to the friction between the exposed lead and the medium but never does the lead get wiped clean from the copper. It is a hard concept for most to accept that if deeper penetration is needed, then drive the bullet faster within the tolerances of a certain cartridge. That is why most go to larger weight of bullet as this slows down the bullet and slows its opening giving better penetration when one is talking cup and core bullets (this was driven home in all the Elmer Keith stories). In actuality, we have spent more time on the low speeds (mimicing long shots) for our designs than we do at the higher end speeds due to the fact that we have not been able to get the bullet nose to blow off or come apart. We were the first manufacturer to really concentrate on slow speed opening in a time where high velocity impacts were all the rage. Let it be known that I am a follower of heavier bullets if the cartridge can push them, but with our design and those of our competitors, the heavier bullet is not necessarily needed for maximum penetration. In fact, I know just take my .375 H&H for every hunt as the small magnums just blow up too much meat while the large tough bullets knock them down hard and one can "eat right up to the hole". I have converted many to using larger calibers if meat is the primary concern for hunting. I am not a long distance shooter (although I shoot for distance a lot), I am a hunter and I like getting close and personal, and for me, that is half the fun of hunting. I think lately the idea of sniper hunting is hurting our sport and allows too many to become too lazy and do not appriciate the kind of reward a hard hunt can bring. Regards, John | |||
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John, Not putting your bullets down. I just don't think they are necessary for deer. You have some loyal supporters on the forum that use your bullets frequently. I'm sure they are terrific. The reality is your bullets are significantly more expensive than most other premiums. North Forks run almost double the price of Nosler Partitions and Barnes TTSX. I understand not to be stingy on bullets when on a big expensive hunt but I don't see why I would spend double for a product that will do same thing. Just my opinion. You obviously have a loyal fan base and it's a free market so you can charge whatever your customers will pay. | |||
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Antelope Sniper ----- I will give you my personal experiences with North Forks and let you draw your own conclusions. Several years ago one of my Elk hunting buddies won the Elk Foundation Rifle a .300 RUM at a fund raising banquet. He then won a premium Elk hunting trip for two to East Marino Ranch in New Mexico when his name was drawn from all winners of the rifle at banquets nationwide. He had heard me talk of the North Fork bullets and had seen proof of their handiwork because we hunt the same place in Colorado. I bought him 200 grain North Forks in .308 and loaded him a very accurate load at 3000 plus fps. We shot that load for weeks and were satisfied with it's performance. He got a huge 6X6 at 418 yards and recovered two of the bullets. Those bullets did appear in North Forks information on their site under .308. They were perfectly mushroomed. If you can figure the speed of the bullets at 418 yards you are better than me, but the point is the North Fork did the job. My son and I shoot .358 STA's at Elk and one year he shot a Bull through both shoulders at 125 yards for a bang flop kill. When he got to the Bull he noticed a Cow laying staring at him at 25 yards beyond. Upon closer inspection the cow was dead with her eyes open and had a spot on blood on her head. We dug the perfectly mushroomed North Fork bullet out of the opposite side of her cranium the next day. He was tagged for both either sex and cow, he just never thought he would get both tags filled with one shot. I recovered a 270 grain perfectly mushroomed .358 STA bullet from a Kongoni (Lictenstien Hartbeest) shot at 180 yards that had 85% of it's weight. I recovered a 370 grain bullet from a .416 Rem that penetrated a Cape Buffalo from the last rib to lodge where the first rib attachs to the backbone at the neck. It had 99.1% of it's original weight, as weighted by Mike Brady. My son, grandson and I have all killed many Elk with the North Forks, we also hunt many other animals with them. We will shoot hundreds of other bullets perfecting a load then when we are happy with it we will go to the North Forks, fine tune and find our group and go hunting. 90% of the time when we are shooting at an animal it is with a North Fork bullet. Good shooting. phurley | |||
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Scott....There's no question in my eyes that Northforks are superb bullets....my experience is for unmatched hunting accuracy and (of the few animals I've killed with them) they put out excellent terminal performance. That said, I sure agree with you that the old interlocks (C&C) bullets will get the same job done. When one: 1. spends a lot of money on a hunt or 2. drives a bullet to very high velocities or 3. decides to hunt elk size and larger game The premiums really come into their own. It appears as the Northforks are now about equally priced as A-Frames and I consider them equal in value/performance so have at it. TBBCs are so overpriced that it's not even worth consideration.....some I've seen are $3.00 each.....and I'm not convinced they are a better bullet..... It's a buyers market right now with accubonds, interbonds and premiums from Remington, woodleigh, Norma, and others and we haven't even bought up the Nosler partitions yet! The competition is indeed stiff for getting your reloading dollars and I'm happy I'm not in that business right now! If you find yourself in one (or more) of the three options above give Northforks a try....a box of 50 will last me ten years as I don't shoot many of my hunting guns except at game and sight-in each year. The same can be said for A-Frames too! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapo, Thanks for the post. I've not even seen a TBBC available for some time. I didn't even know they were still making them. I heard Federal was going to start producing Fusions, Trophy Bonded Tips and TBBC as components in 2010. I guess they landed the military contract to produce TBBC in 223 and have all the business they can handle. | |||
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I'm a little late to respond to this thread but I've been away shooting Northfork bullets. I've switched all my rifles over to shoot Northforks due to the fact that 1) You get the velocity with less powder, 2) They foul the bore less, 3) A snap to clean the rifle as they just don't foul as much, 4) They always seem to work perfectly. I just shot a Cape Buffalo with their Cup Point Solids and they worked perfectly. I shot 14 soft skinned animals and only recovered two of the bullets and they also worked perfectly. I will post pictures in my hunt report if I can ever get it done. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Dago Red, To the original post. If you work up a load with Sierra bullets you've worked up a load with Sierra bullets. The data you receive from that exercise will only apply to the North Fork by accident. A load with Sierras maybe super accurate and give good velocity but the North Forks using that same data could be all over the paper. You need to develop your load with the bullet you intend to use or you've wasted your time. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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If you don't have a good presentation, take the shot anyways as these bullets will compensate and work from any angle. If you use a "magnum" you can hit em anywhere--afterall the magnum enlarges the kill zone. That has sold lots of magnums and I guess it sells premium bullets. IF YOU DONT HAVE A GOOD SHOT--PASS. I have passed many shots and can say I have never passed a shot that I would have tried had I had a bigger rifle in my hands or a premium bullet. If it's not a good shot--you PASS this time the animal won. | |||
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I've kinda had mixed results with getting the NFs to shoot as good as my Swift loads. I see that Midway now sells the NFs, so maybe with the additional sales volume the price can come down. I, for one, really like having options. | |||
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Almost every time I see someone complain about a Nosler BT it is from a shot taken with a small for game caliber or small for caliber bullet. That is where premiums are needed. If you want to shoot a small caliber use a super tough bullet. If you want to shoot light bullets in your superloudermagnum use a premium bullet. However use a caliber that is actually designed for the size game you are hunting and a bullet to match and it and put that bullet in the boiler room and you won't have problems with soft skinned non dangerous game. Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
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Well I'm a frickin' tard, get this. I decide I don't have time so I just load using the north forks (expensive considering what you're about to hear). we'r in the mountains, have a measured out 100yd range, but no interim distances (of course it's a mushy meadow in between so couldn't anyways). My 308 Norma was shooting great before, I had never messed with it since buying it, hadn't shot it in years when I pulled it out a few weeks ago. off hand at 100yds I hit 2 out of 3 clays we had setup. The other night I decided that I don't like the fact that the crosshairs are slightly canted so I loosen rings and adjust it. Today, good thing is even at 72 grains no real pressure signs, but I CANNOT hit the target. I kid you not, bore sighted it even, could not hit. I don't know, back to the range maybe monday, start at 25 yards and see what I can do. Load up a bunch of mid range loads with sierras to get me on target. Only good note is on my 06, I'll post a thread. thanks guys. Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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If you intend to keep the .308 Norma, then work up the load with the Northfork bullets or you might just be pissin in the wind, some guns won't shoot all bullets to the same POI or with the same accuracy.  There is not better bullet than a Northfork, and I have killed about as much big game and Dangerous Game with them as anyone..Every bullet I recovered is a clone to the last one I recovered. They are all perfect mushrooms, end of story..Most bullets in my box I can say I shot such and such with by the way I remember it looking in its recovered form...I can't do that with Northforks, they all look alike and I can't remember what I shot with them. Then we have the Northfork cup point and I can't tell you how good a bullet it is on Cape buffalo, it penetrates like a solid and kills like a soft..how can you beat that. If you need more penetration then the Northfork flat nose solid works like a charm on buffalo and my reports tell me its awesome on elephant, Butch Searcy loved it on elephant.. I go back a long ways with North fork bullets. I don't alway use them, but I always have them on hand. I just like to use all bullets to see how they perform. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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These are the only Northfork bullets I recovered from my recent trip to Africa. From left to right: Northfork 450 grain .458 Cup Point Solid from a shoulder shot on a Cape Buffalo; A 225 grain .338 Northfork Soft Point from a 100 yard shoulder shot on a Waterbuck: And a 225 grain .338 Northfork Soft Point from a 300 yard shot on a Zebra. I have used Northfork bullets exclusively since discovering them. My only change will be switching to the 500 grain .458 CPS when my supply of 450's runs out. They just always seem to work like they are suspose to.  The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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I have shot a lot of the NF bullets in various rifles. In most the final loads and velocities were pretty well in line with other bullets, but in my .375 H&H it required a considerable reduction in powder to make the velocity fall in line. In other words, start low. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Red, I would just start working up a load with the NF. If its what you are going to use, get your rifle sighted in with the NF then you can try and find a "tin foil" bullet that shoots to same poi. Most guys do it the other way around and you never know where you are sighted in exactly, and waste alot of time, money, powder and cheaper bullets trying to re create the velocity and zero of your hunting load. $70 a box will give you alot of fun and its cheaper than golf! I shot a cape buffalo point blank with a 400 grain 458 from a 450 dakota in 2005 at 2750 fps and it retained 95% weight and expanded to about 85 caliber, breaking off side leg. No other bullet in the world could do that. No reason not to shoot your norma at bunny rabits if you like. Why not deer? Same load good for elk. What a combo! PS I had to reduce my load in my 375 improved from my Bitterroot and Sierra loads so I would just start with the NF. Andy | |||
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Red, I took a peek at Mapquest.com and put the address for Sacramento Valley Shooting Center. http://www.sacvalley.org/ It's about 170 miles from Fresno. Might be something to think about. I use the Audette ALL THE TIME! In about 10-13 rounds you can find the rifles accuracy node. Once the node is found you can either load up something in the node and go hunting; maybe not LR hunting. Or, you can fine tune a little bit more to narrow down the sweet spot. Take a look at this site and you come away with a whole new take on how the Audette can save you components and barrel life. http://www.accurateshooter.com...ge-load-development/ You can shorten the distances to a comfortable distance. Take a look at a ladder I shot a few months back and try to guess where the node is. 6.5x47 lapua 140 Berger VLD Ramshot Hunter .5 gr increments Shot @ 600 yds Shot #11 went over the top but that's "ok" 'cause the bolt lift was a little sticky. Shot #10 should read 2908 fps, not 2808.  Alan  | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Developing a load and switching to Northforks qustion
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