I just finished sorting out my Norma brass from the RWS and Browning for my 9.3 x 74. I threw 43 cases in the garbage along with a dead mouse the had a box of .470's fall on his head as he wondered by. Good riddance to both of them.

The Norma would seperate at the head after 2 reloadings or so and what was left of the brass would stick, although lightly, in the chamber. I know a couple of you have had this happen so I just thought I'd let the rest of you know to not trust it to far.

How old was the brass & what are you shooting it out of? I have a Ruger #1 being rebarreled to .338x74keith & as the name implies, it uses the 9.3x74 as the parent case.
I sent the gunsmith a box of new Norma for load developement, but I am holding off buying more until I hear how he is coming.

/

My rifle was made by the then head gunmaker at Francotte as his personnel rifle in 1935. It is a boxlock, ejector. I had to have it restocked as the fellow must have only been about 5'0 tall .

I have had it for about 15 years and shot hundreds of rounds through it. I always used RWS brass in the past but I ended up with 3 boxes of Norma 286 grain ammunition that I bought in Australia. After shooting it on a buffalo cull and reloading the brass the third time around the cases began seperating. If you look at the case you can see a line around the bass about 1/8" up. The RWS and Browning ammunition that I got in Europe has been loaded up to 7 times without a problem.

On the Hunt America Forum a few months ago this was brought up by some one else in regards to Norma and from the response on the thread it seemed to be typical, at least in the 9.3 x 74.

Alf
Same dies for all of the reloads on the rifle since I bought it.

Fred
The .338x74 Kieth sounds interesting. What exactly is it and what does it do. I think the case could be necked down to .308 for a pretty neat single shot mountain rifle.

/

Alf

Thanks for the information. Maybe the Norma is just a tad bit different. Some one said that RWS makes Browning brass, but I have no idea if that is true.

At any rate I am just going to stick with the RWS as I have allot, over 150 cases, and it works fine for me.

mickey I have a Chapuis 9.3x74R. I only get two firings out of Norma brass. Most cases seperate or almost seperate on the third firing. My loads are not hot. This happends even when I use my neck sizing die, which I bought hoping it might solve the problem. Where do you get your RWS brass. I have one box bought as factory ammo that I am going to reload and test. 400 Nitro also has told me he has good case life with RWS 9.3 brass he reforms to 400/360 NE.

Mickey, since decades, Browning brass and sporting ammo (id.Weatherby) are made by... Norma. Norma, RWS and Geco are all owned by the german Dynamit Nobel group and you can imagine some exchanges being common. Case separation happened to me once (with Browning brass, made by Norma)and I solved it by partial sizing, just stopping when the action closes without resistance (the latter is important for too tight an headspace may loosen up the rifle quickly). BTW, case length is to be watched closely as the rifle is handmade (meaning both chambers may not be exactly alike) and it is better to err on the short side.

/

Mickey I could use some of that 9.3x74 brass that you threw away for my collection if you still have it. I'll pay shipping.

Alf
I got the Browning brass in Belgium, if that makes any differance. If the Browning is made by Norma than I should have the same problem but I don't.

The RWS was available from the Old Scrounger at one time but most of mine I got in Europe or RSA or in Australia.

Bearclaw
Send me a PM and I'll pop it in the mail. I pulled the bullets to dump the powder but I will include some with it so you can stuff them back in.

[ 10-07-2002, 19:46: Message edited by: mickey ]

Headspace on a rimmed case is controlled by the thickness of the rim ...

The headspace of a combo gun with rimmed shells changes as the action stretches ...

How do the shells fail: longitudinal splits or separated shell heads?

IMO combo guns ( read: doubles, too! ) are not made for handloading. Any safety the shell = brass case might furnish, is needed.

Just my 0.02. Hermann

Mickey,

The .338x74Keith is a round designed by the late Elmer Keith for use in single shot (or double) rifles. It is the 9.3 necked down & blown-out to an "improved" shape. Basically it is a .338 Win mag (250gr @ 2750fps). balistically in a true single shot styled round. A way out there wildcat, but it should be a great round for elk & such @ distance.

NE450, you can get RWS brass from Old West Scrounger.

[ 10-07-2002, 23:26: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Mickey,
Possibly you got a bad batch?? I shoot a lot of Norma and have not had a problem...RWS is, IMO, the best brass in the world today.

Ray
Possibly, I did buy all of it at the same time so they could all be from the same batch. 450#2 has the same prblem with Norma in his 9.3 x 74 though. Perhaps it is the long, thin case and softer brass?

aHunter
The case head seperates and ejects, leaving the body in the chamber. At $65.00/box reloading is a better (read cheaper) way to go. I think that neck sized reloads headspace on the shoulder as well as the rim just as belted cases due after being 'fireformed' to fit the chamber.

Fred
Keep us informed on this. Who has the reamers for this? Will the 210 Nosler duplicate the .338 also? Is there a .308x74Kieth?

Anthony R. @ Broadcreek Rilfe Works has the reamer & RCBS can provide the dies. It will probably be done in November & I'll let everyone know how it turns out. As I said, it is basically a rimmed .338Win mag., so the 210gr NP should make about 3000fps. There is an article in the Book of Big Bores. If anyone wants add'l. info, please e-mail me & I'll forward BRoadcreeks info. He currently has no web site.

Mickey,

I've never heard of a .308x74R, but your question reminds me that there is a 8x75 which, from the little bit of data I have been able to obtain, seems to be virtually a 9.3x74R necked down. In Barnes Cartridges of the World, they liken it to a .300H&H in performance and it would be an interesting single rifle cartridge (it is also available in Merkel doubles).

Gentlemen

RWS is well known for it's "fleshy" brass. Norma makes great brass. I have a friend who had almost the same problem. His rifle worked great whit norma brass and it could be reloaded 7 times without any problem . The RWS ammo were so large and rim soo fleshy that it was one heck of a time cambering a round. I rubber hammer were almost needed

On double rifle the camber size matters if you cases will last and how the headspace is. Some double rifles have very large cambers to digest all kinds of ammo, one time
Find a brand of shells ammo that works well and stick with it.

/ JOHAN

Had the same problem with Norma cases in my Tikka 512 Double gun. I reloaded fabricloaded cases and had a couple of breaks.

I sold the Tikka when the two barrels broke away from eachother and the repairman said " Now it is fixed, let�s se how long it's last till it breaks again."

Mickey,

I have a love/hate relationship with Norma brass. Love it because it's readily available here in the States in many of the European calibers I load (7x57R, 7x64, 7x65R, 9.3x74R, 308 Norma, 358 Norma, 8x60R formed from 9.3x74R). Hate it because I've had many premature brass failures - split necks after on firing, case head separation on 9.3x74R after 2 firings just like you.

First, I've taken to annealing all Norma brass. It has stopped the neck splitting on my 9.3x62 cases. Should also do the trick for the same problem I'm having on the 7x64 cases. Mind you, these splits occurred after the first firing of factory loaded fodder or the first loading of new, virgin cases.

The case head separation on the 9.3x74R is a real problem. I should mention that the same gun, a Kettner SxS double rifle, has also had my one box of RWS brass fired through it 3 times with no thinning of the brass just forward of the solid portion of the case head. I've taken to testing this with a feeler gauge made from a sharpened, bent paper clip to catch excessive thinning before the shiny ring appears on the outside of the case. I should also note that the RWS and Norma brass were both loaded identically. Yes, headspace for a rimmed case is controlled by the rim, but case stretching is controlled by the shoulder to case head dimension. As you well know, the 9.3x74R doesn't have much of a shoulder. I have been very careful to minimally size my 9.3x74R cases so as to not set this small shoulder back during resizing. This seems to work very well for the RWS brass and doesn't prolong case life one bit for the Norma brass. Final score: RWS brass - thumbs up; Norma brass - sucks. Only problem is I bought 100 more cases of the Norma stuff before I started loading for my 9.3x74, so I was unaware of this problem. Any lovers of Norma brass out there want to trade my stuff for some RWS brass?

I guess I'll just have to hope this new brass is from a different lot and works better (lives longer) than the previous stuff. Buying new cases every 2 loadings gets expensive. Maybe RWS brass at twice the price really is a better deal. Just wish we had another source than OWS. His prices are just too damned high and his selection is rather limited.

Gentlemen

I called RWS in germany, and they are about to open up an american office and distribution.

RWS thinks that the american market is hard to enter since people get cheap shit instead of quality ammo and components.

If they are about to oopen this american company, I suggest you support them instead of OWS.

I never had any problem with the norma cases in any rifle, which I find quite strange. I hope they are not going to drop the quality.

In Sweden it's a big hassle getting RWS cases, since the agent for RWS is normark. They are also the distributors of NORMA. Normark said that they wouldn't stock brass or bullets from RWS and only sell calibers that norma doesn't have on their program

Oligopol and cartells really sucks

/ JOHAN

RWS 9.3x74R brass averages about 225 grains, Norma about 209 grains, therein lies the answer,ie. a thicker web on the RWS. JOHAN if you find out the phone number or address of the USA RWS store let us know, I will be there first customer.

I have used Norma brass for my 9.3x62 before I started using PMP and had no problems, I got rid of them after going to PMP. PMP is more redily available

I had some Norma .243 win cases (cost me about twice what the Winchester brand cases did). The necks in the Norma cases formed donuts after only two to three loadings. The Winchester cases, with the same and hotter loads, are going on six loadings...

Dan

How does the Norma brass perfrom in .416 Rigby Cal ??

Seems fine to me so far. Fourth or fifth loading?

I bought a William Evans .400/.360 NE boxlock ejector double, built in 1927, in 1991. I tried Bertram brass initially - don't go there. I then began using 9.3 X 74R (trimmed to 2.745" from 2.93"). I started with Norma. I began to get a bright ring with some after the second loading, which I discarded. With the remainder on the third firing, I got a couple of complete separations and most of the others had the tell-tale ring. I never had the nerve to load a Norma case a fourth time, even if it didn't have a ring.

Then, 10 years ago, I bought 40 new RWS cases. I still have 36 (I know because I loaded 'em all last night - deer season opens here next weekend) and the attrition is due to the ffffing ejectors. I've fired many hundreds of rounds through this rifle with this one batch of cases. I've never seen a ring and have never thrown one away. I will retire them after this loading because some of them have been loaded 12 times.

In 1988 I bought an A. Hollis & Son .450/.400 3" NE double, built circa 1912. I bought 20 rounds of loaded ammo from A-Square, the only source of loaded ammo in that caliber at the time. I won't bore you with the whole horror story, other than to say I got complete head separations on the FIRST reload (they skipped the bright ring stage). I wrote A-Square and old Lightweight (LTC) Arty wrote back that my rifle "obviously" had "excessive head-space". Looking back on his ignorant and entirely self-serving response still pisses me off. I then bought 60 rounds of the old Bell cases. I put 600-700 rounds through the rifle with this batch of cases and still have them all. Again, I never had a failure of any kind. I bought a batch of the new Bell (MAST Tech) last year simply because the old stuff had been loaded so many times, not because it had begun to fail.

I've used the same die-set for each rifle throughout. Gee, I guess both rifles have dangerously excessive head-space because I've had head separations in both so quickly. Yes, excessive head-space can cause this problem when that condition actually exists. But in the real world, most of the time, this problem has NOTHING to do with head-space. The culprit is usually SOFT, THIN, SHITTY BRASS which will reliably produce EXACTLY the same result. Cartridge brass is like any other manufactured product. Some makers produce cases of benchmark quality and others produce useless junk, with the rest falling somewhere in between.

Of the many brands of rifle brass I've used, Norma is not the worst, A-Square and Bertram have that indignity covered, but it isn't much better. RWS is the best I have ever used. It may be two or three times more expensive than Norma, but it will last more than two or three times as long.
-------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

[ 10-27-2002, 23:39: Message edited by: 400 Nitro Express ]

Exactly Right!!!!

And hear it is!

This string puzzles me, simply because I have some Norma 8X57JR brass that has been reloaded many times, and when you consider it was bought new in 1967, and used in a double rifle, with absolutely no problem! Additionally, I have Norma 243 cases that have been reloaded at least ten times with barrel meltingly "HOT" handloads and some of it has been loaded tentimes or more, with no problem. Based on this experience, I just ordered 100 rounds of New Norma 9.3X74R from HDS! Now I'm thinking that may have been a mistake!

I'll back this up with some RWS, though, but I might add that the only RWS I have ever used had really bad primer pockets, and off center flash holes, but that was many years ago, and is the reason I started useing the Norma brass in the 8X57JR double in the first place! I still have 120 new rounds of 8X57JR Norma brass that I bought back 1967, and is new and unfired still in the factory boxes! Also about 1000 Norma 196 gr soft point, .318 dia bullets to go with them!

Has anyone reloaded any of the Sellier&Bellot brass? I haven't had the 9.3X74R double rifle very long, and bought up a batch of S&B factory ammo that shoots well in my rifle, but haven't reloaded any of it as yet!

MacD37 look closely at the S&B brass. I did and it scared me! Weigh it. It is lighter than the Norma brass.It has to be thinner. I have been using Norma brass twice and throwing it away. Which is hard on me as I hate to throw anything away. I have some RWS brass from factory loads that I am going to test when I get time. If you are in the DFW area, when you go to test the Nosler Partitions in your 9.3 give me a heads up and I'll be glad to spot for you.

The thickness of brass is of no importance, it is not a bullet proof vest...the thinest brass out there is WW and the thickest is Rem..I like the WW brass as well as RWS...

Headspace is what causes head seperations, period. the Norma cases in question should be fireformed first the neck sized only for any double rifle....the Europeans just ran those funny reamers into the barrel untill they looked about right and wow, you can get about any kind of a chamber in a European or even and English double rifle...also about any size bore with 8 thousands give or take, quality control was unheard off and shooters had to take chamber casts and slug the bores in those days, and a really good just as important practice today....

When I first ordered my 9.3x62 brass from Graf's, I ordered Norma. The girl said "We're out of Norma but we have Lapua. It's better brass anyway." I didn't have any trouble with 3 loadings of the Norma but I left it all in Africa.
I never reloaded Norma 9.3x74 but I have done so with S&B with no problem- 3 reloads of 54.6gr N201 and 286 gr Nosler pt. It shoots right to factory point of impact and groups 4 shots into 2" in my Valmet.
Gregor Woods has some nice things to say about both cartridges in his new book "Rifles For Africa". An interesting book- nothing if not opinion. I think he has more opinions than Ray!

Many years ago (40 or so) Norma brass had a reputation as being very soft in the head area. My experience was with some .257 Roberts brass by Norma, which would exhibit loosened primer pockets in only a couple of firings with loads that were perfectly normal in WW brass.

Norma changed this practice sometime in the last 40 years, but I couldn't say when they "toughened" their brass. My guess is that brass designed for relatively low-pressure cartridges might still be made fairly soft, as Norma regarded this as a "safety" feature so that hot loads would not be repeatedly fired with old guns. The combination of soft case heads in a gun with somewhat generous headspace would lead to the failures you've experienced.

DrDuc Thanks for the info on S&B brass I will try and load some this week and see how it works. I remember Bob Hagel in his books saying that Weatherby brass, made by Norma, was soft, and he used reformed WW brass in his 340WBY to get higher velocity than was possible with the Norma made product. Where is a good place to get RWS 9.3x74R at a decent price?

N E 450 No2,

Go to the thread in "Reloading" called RWS Brass. We're looking to put together an order direct from Germany. Cobalt is coordinating the order.