In a previous thread, we've discussed the "One Gun Man". The question is for lower 48 rifle calibers, and cartridges.
Many of the responses are for heavy calibers, and some are for lighter calibers. Most everyone agrees that we need to go to the woods with "Enough Gun", but what is "To Much Gun"? Is there such thing as to much gun?
How far are you walking, how big, and how tough is the animal, is there potential for a grizzly encounter, how much recoil can you easily handle, do you hand load, are you hunting from a tree stand, potentially how far are you likely, or willing to shoot, do you require broadside only shots, will you be shooting off hand, or have a good rest, and how willing are you to spend hours, or a whole day, or night, tracking.
All of these questions should be considered, and should influence our caliber choice.
Why would a whitetail deer hunter carry a .416, and why would an elk hunter carry a .243?
My tendency would be to lean toward the lighter caliber for the task at hand. Example: 7mm, or 30 caliber is as big as I would likely choose for a moose, elk, or mule deer round. For a whitetail, coyote, hog, and antelope round, I would choose a .25 caliber, or if limited, would carry the same 7mm, or 30 cal. used for the bigger game. I would load it differently, but would be fine to carry any of them.

So, how much gun is enough?

I believe by your thorough and thought provoking questions you gave the insight for anyone to answer the question. Each of us should ask those questions of themselves, as you alluded, and hopefully come up with a wise decision.

I would like to think I gave thought to those questions decades ago, I certainly hope so, which is why in the one gun thread I chose a drilling with an einstecklauf, or an insert as they're called on these shores. That was perhaps subverting the original question about "one gun" but I happen to own a few drillings and do admire them for their versatility and craftsmanship.

I expect the intent of the questions, the one gun and yours about enough gun, are actually about centerfire cartridge choice rather than a firearm. The centerfire cartridge in one drilling of mine I was thinking of when I answered happens to be my namesake, the 9.3 X 75R Nimrod. I do handload, quite seriously, so have a couple loads that will work admirably for anything in any conditions I am likely to hunt requiring a centerfire rifle cartridge. That particular drilling also has installed a 22LR insert in the right shotgun barrel, leaving the left 16 bore barrel which also interchanges nicely between shot or slugs. It is my opinion and applicable to me only that that particular drilling would be my "one gun" and in regard to your question....well I suppose depending on the game in question one of those three barrels would be "enough gun".

As is probably the case with most of us I don't believe there is one cartridge that will do it all from varmints to dangerous game...that's simply asking too much. If a person is restricted a three gun battery has always made the most sense to me.

I have shot white tails with my 416 and full house loads. I have also shot them with my 22 hornet and a 45gr cast at 1100fps.

And every thing in between why because I can and it is fun.

One can always find a situation where it isn't enough or maybe to much.

But most of the time a well place bullet does the job.

i remember some years back when i sold a 460 weatherby to a guy from alabama. He had been using a 340 weatherby to shoot those huge whitetails down there, but the last one ran away. He thought the 460 would be just right

In many situations it isn't so much a case of too much gun as not enough shooter. There are cases where big guns give up too much in trajectory or wind, though people always reassure me that such conditions are the exception. Maybe so but I live smack dab in the center of the exception. As much as I like the .375s, 416s and 458s I can look out the window and see a situation where they aren't too much gun, they are not enough of the right kind of gun. For where I live a little 257 Weatherby, 264, 7 STW or any of the big 30s is twice the gun as my 458 Lott. Change the situation and their position reverses.

In circumstances where ranges are necessarily short; say typically under 200, with the odd 300 and 100 and less being normal, the bigger guns give up nothing and gain the ability to take most big game animals from any angle. Many hunters aren't interested in doing such a thing, but those that do are much better off with a 375 than a 25-06.

Some will criticize a hunter for using a 416 on whitetail; then in the next breath laugh at the guy who shows up for a Buffalo hunt with the same rifle if he hasn't hunted with it before. There's a better than even chance the critic has done neither of those things himself, but there are no solid requirements for being a critic.

Much can be done with loads to extend the utility of a some bigger guns. For instance I have a load for one of my 375 H&Hs that drives a 230 grain ESP Raptor along at over 3000 and functionally matches the trajectory of a 300, 7 Rem, .270 Win and any number of more normal cartridges out to 500. Incidentally that bullet flys flatter than the published BC would indicate. I'm taking it on a brown bear, goat combo in sept and don't expect to give up anything on the goat portion.

I suspect about any gun mentioned on this question will be suitable for some and not for others..I'm not big on caliber, more important is bullet construction and bullet placement..I have shot deer with a 22 L.R. to a 470 N.E. just because, and both worked equally well, just had to change my style of hunting.

quote:

I have shot deer with a 22 L.R. to a 470 N.E. just because, and both worked equally well, just had to change my style of hunting.

+1

Any one that says a 458 Win Mag is too big for Sitka blacktail deer is either ignorant or just needs to be flipped off and forgotten about. . Its a great deer round. . . Better to be able to use too big a cart well than have too little and not have it work. . The 25/20 is a good example of not enough even tho lots and lots of deer have been killed with them. The 223 on the other hand is just fine. With a good bullet anyways. I've shot deer with the 500 A-Square. It puts a hole thru them. No problem. Dead deer, meat in the freezer.
This subject oft times just makes me want to cuss a blue streak.
Personally I think the mid velocity 6.5s are the PERFECT, All around non dangerous hunting rounds. The 06 is the single most over rated hunting round on earth. Too big for most game and too small for big game. .
But if someone wants to hunt with an 06 , have ater. Hope you have a great time.

The 6.5 is perfect!

For deer sized game, enough gun is extremely broad especially with todays bullets.

It gets a little narrower as the game gets bigger but still very broad. I don't believe in overkill. Dead is dead. To me, too much gun is one you can't shoot confidently because your are afraid of recoil. Bullet placement is key.

There are just so many cartridges that do the same things. Shoot whatever floats your boat and don't tell people yours is better than theirs because it probably isn't.

I absolutely agree Scott. If you enjoy shooting the heavies, and recoil etc. doesn't bother you, or affect your ability to shoot accurately, then I say the .416 etc. is not to much gun, and is probably even better. But, if you have any problems at all , flinching, the blinks, the squints, then you should find a smaller, more shooter friendly round. For the lower 48, .270, to 30 cals will work just fine for anything. For Whitetail and smaller, the .243 thru 30 cals are great. Varmints, anything goes as long as it's a centerfire cartridge. IMHO. Telling someone, "mines better than yours", is not a Dale Carnegie quote!
Good shooting to all!

There "might" exist, a category of people that just likes to hunt with different caliber/firearms/ammo combinations.
I "just" might be one of those. I have my favorites for the Rocky Mountains I live in. The .300, both Win and Ultra Mags. .338 WM, the .375 H&H and up.
I have taken elk with a .30-06 several times and then decided to try other calibers "because I can", like the .300's, .338, .375 and even the .416 RemMag. I like experimenting just to see what they do.

iirc: "I can't have too much gun, because the animal can't be too dead..."

quote:

..I have shot deer with a 22 L.R. to a 470 N.E. just because, and both worked equally well, just had to change my style of hunting.

Have not killed one with a .22LR, but have used a variety of calibers from .22 Hornet to .458 Win Mag to .50 caliber muzzle loader.

All worked equally well as long as I did my part.

I still don't see it as "One Size Fits All" equation.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[I still don't see it as "One Size Fits All" equation.

Look no further. It doesn´t exist

It is a gun, well adequate for the task at hand that you can handle and shoot skillfully.

All my elk have fallen to the same Sako 7mm Remington Magnum because that gun is an extension of me.

The over twenty large bison that fell to me while backing up sports were taken with my .416 Rigby (CZ with Bavarian stock) because I had to make brainstem shots at moving targets and that rifle handles like a well-fitted shotgun. At that velocity (2370 fps) the bullets easily penetrated to the brainstem from any angle.

The equation has changed with the advent of super-premium bullets.

A .308 with 165 grain partitions is enough for any lower 48 game. With a Joe-bag-of-donuts run of the mill bullet, a larger round is probably needed.

It is also a good thing to have a margin for less than perfect shots, or if you have to range through a rumen or liver to reach the vitals.

In Sweden most hunters has rifles with dual or multipurpose. Most hunters has a moose/wildboar rifle in 6,5-9,3cal and maybee a 22lr,222/223r for smallgame. I use my .308 for biggame and occational smallgame and vermint. My 12/6,5 for driven game and my 22wm for birds and small vermin. The .308 work well with 110gr for vermin(beaver) to 180gr for moose/deer/boar/bear.

From what I've seen by the 100+ hunters we've had in camp over the years, most of them seem to be "over gunned" and "under bulleted".

Good point. That's kinda where I was going with this. I will add, that the guys on this site are not the general public at large. Odds are that most anyone who frequents this site will be a serious shooter, and therefore have a well rounded knowledge of most bullets, most hunting loads, and firearms in general. We all know someone, that should not own the 300 Weatherby, and should be spending some quality time with a 22 LR, or. .223

for NA, my OM70 300 H&H comes pretty close.

The funny thing is that I started with a .257 Roberts on whitetail and hogs in Texas...moved to a .350 Rem Mag, .375 H&H, 7mm SAUM, 7mm Rem Mag...and am now moving back down to a 6.5x55 Swede.

I love to both obsess about hardware...and also recognize this is much synthetic frippery. Bullet drop at 300 yards in any of these cartridges is largely +/- 2". Where I hunt in Texas, the longest shot I have is about 180 yards. Sure, some other areas are longer range, perhaps out to 300 yards...but the end result of the distance is that it's minor changes in trajectory, almost completely irrelevant.

All in all, I find myself gravitating towards smaller and easier on the shoulder.

I've kind of done the same thing rnovi. Worked my way "up" to the 7mm Rem Mag, and still use it some, as it's been on all 3 of my plains game hunts. I am however, at 54 yrs old, working my way back down to my beloved 7mm-08 and 140 Accubonds or partitions for most of my USA hunting. I enjoy the lighter recoil, I'll admit.

To my thinking there is a preferred round and a minimum or enough gun. Enough gun could be the good old 30-30. A preferred gun would start at .308 Win or 30-06 for me.

When it comes right down to it, speaking of a comfortable lower 48 hunting rifles. The .308, & 7-08 are pretty hard to beat if your carrying them a lot, and shooting reasonable distances.

OK TC, I,ve been watching this post as I'm still torn over what rifle to take to Wyoming this fall for elk. My first thought is my .280 Mountain rifle with 160 gr. Partitions, but I have this perfectly good 700 Classic in .338 that I haven't shot since my shoulder problems 16 years ago. I think I'll try some 210 Partitions in the 338 and see how the old shoulder likes it.

quote:

Originally posted by tc98:
In a previous thread, we've discussed the "One Gun Man". The question is for lower 48 rifle calibers, and cartridges. .....

So, how much gun is enough?

Time tested:
270WCF, 30/30, 308W and 30/06Gov't

quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod308:
OK TC, I,ve been watching this post as I'm still torn over what rifle to take to Wyoming this fall for elk. My first thought is my .280 Mountain rifle with 160 gr. Partitions, but I have this perfectly good 700 Classic in .338 that I haven't shot since my shoulder problems 16 years ago. I think I'll try some 210 Partitions in the 338 and see how the old shoulder likes it.

Have you put the new scope on the .280 yet?
I think the .338 is an awesome round, but your shoulder isn't gonna give you the nod vs the 280.
160 gr partition, pushing 2800 fps. Lighter to carry etc. pretty poison if you ask me! I'm going down to pick up my 300 H&H, 700 Classic right now!
My question has become, 300 WSM, Kimber Montana, or 300 WSM Sako 85 Finn Lite, or 300 H&H 700 Classic?
Let's load some and go shoot!
And for the record, I think your .280 Mtn. Rifle is plenty of gun, and much more comfortable.

I put a Zeiss 4.5 x 14 with the Rapid Z reticle on the 280, got a load with the 160's that shoots under 2" @ 200yds at about 2840 fps. I think I may be ready but you know I'll tinker with other stuff all summer.

quote:

The .308, & 7-08 are pretty hard to beat if your carrying them a lot, and shooting reasonable distances.

But that holds true for ANY rifle/cartridge/scope combination out there.

Why does there have to be a FINITE answer to this?????

You are correct my friend. "Shoot whatcha brought" pretty much works for me as long as we're talking heavy on the "reasonable". Unreasonable would be to carry my 6.5x284 with the 26" barrel, and the big ole honking Night Force scope. Unreasonable would also be to ask a light weight woman to carry a 9.5 lbs, hvy. recoil rifle on a mountain hunt. Matter of fact, I might consider that unreasonable for me!
There is no finite answer, but you know what I'm saying, I just picked the .308, and the 7-08 because they're two of the many very comfortable shooters! Like one buddy of mine said recently. I'm growing pretty fond of light weight, and magnification!

quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod308:
I put a Zeiss 4.5 x 14 with the Rapid Z reticle on the 280, got a load with the 160's that shoots under 2" @ 200yds at about 2840 fps. I think I may be ready but you know I'll tinker with other stuff all summer.

I'll be out of town for the next few days, but next week we ought a put a little time in on the bench. Shooting , and reloading. I've got to load some 300 H&H's and start the break in process.
Are you gonna give the .338 a go?

quote:

"reasonable".

Here again, we run into the concept that what is "Reasonable" for one person, may be totally unreasonable for another person of the exact same physical build and experience level.

I guess I am too simplistic on this, but I believe your individual choices are just as valid as my individual choices, but the difference between our choices may vary widely.

quote:

Here again, we run into the concept that what is "Reasonable" for one person, may be totally unreasonable for another person of the exact same physical build and experience level.

Agreed
Also from one end of this country to another different game, different terrain, different distances are encountered as well as different hunting styles. A deep woods whitetail hunter from the east who strives for stalking to within 35 yards will have one "best" cartridge and rifle suggestion.
Someone who hunts the west where 400-450 yard shots are encountered and stalking closer impossible will have a different choice, neither of them wrong.

I didn't mean "my reasonable", I meant reasonable, and practical, to the one who's doing the carrying & shooting. Now I've definitely got my idea of reasonable, but I'm not selling my ideas.
I guess the bottom line imo, and probably a better way of saying this, is that I hate to see some of these folks punish theselves, and dread every time they squeeze a trigger, because of felt recoil. The same ones that will pay someone to sight their rifle in. A reasonable, and practical gun just might make all the difference. Kinda like starting a 6 or 7 year old off wing shooting with a .410
"Reasonable" and practical. But not the law!

quote:

Kinda like starting a 6 or 7 year old off wing shooting with a .410

I used to think along those lines, but with advancements in stock designs and such, I have reassessed my views.

Such as starting a youth out with a gun/shotgun, that they can handle. One aspect is in not starting a kid or for that matter a grown up that has no experience with something experienced shooters have reservations about shooting.

All too often I have seen people start youths out too early and with too much gun, while others handicap the youth or beginning hunter regardless of age, with a shotgun or rifle that is better suited to a more experienced shooter.

You mention the .410 for the beginner. From my observations over the years, a kid is better off starting with a Youth Model 20 gauge, something with a stock sized/designed for smaller framed people with smaller hands/shorter arms.

My reason for not viewing the .410 as a good starter gun, is simply that the inexperienced shooter, kid or adult, will do a lot of shooting but not a lot of killing. With a 3/4 ounce load and a fairly limited range, I view the .410 as the tool for the advanced/expert shooter-hunter.

I have the same POV concerning the .222/.223 in a rifle, again with guns designed for youths, a .243 is a better choice in my opinion.

I grew up during a time when all too often, someone, whether A Dad/Uncle/Older Brother etc. etc. etc. would find the hardest recoiling gun they or a friend owned and would gull a novice/inexperienced shooter into shooting the thing, and then set back and laugh at the person due to their reaction when the gun fired.

We still see that type of nonsense in some of the videos that show up from time to time including those generated at Saeed's personal gun range.

Another aspect all too often overlooked in my opinion, is that not all 6-7-8 year olds are exactly the same, and sometimes, even eight year olds are not mature enough physically to graduate from a .22 LR for plinking/shooting targets, up to a center-fire rifle.

It took a little longer than normal to finally get to what the topic is really about. Recoil. Is it wasn't for recoil there wouldn't be articles, thread and campfire arguments about what was enough gun. Everyone would just use something that has all kinds of power and there would be no debate. Magazines would board up their windows, forums would shut down and light recoiling cartridges would be discontinued due to poor sales. Who would want a good small gun if there were no downside to a good bigger one that does everything just as well and some things better? Someone who doesn't like recoil, that's who. Price would quickly adjust to volume and .375s would be 20 bucks a box. 243s would be priced off the market because the ammo makers wouldn't want to take production time away from 300 Wins. 30-06s would be obsolete the day afte Newtons law was repelled and its many fans realized that there wasn't anything magic about a 180 at 2700 after all when there was a 180 at 3150 option.


Theres not much use trying to get some people to admit their interest in a 243 is recoil related. He might not be able to admit it to himself. He certainly can't comprehend that to another shooter a .375 is a joke and a .458 is a lot of fun. He simply doesn't believe it.

Nothing wrong with being over-gunned as long as you are comfortable with the caliber. Going deer hunting with a 458 winnie is good practice for a buff or elephant hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
Nothing wrong with being over-gunned as long as you are comfortable with the caliber. Going deer hunting with a 458 winnie is good practice for a buff or elephant hunt.

I agree! I've taken my 9.3x62 deer hunting and my 458 hog hunting. BUT - My goal was to stay in practice and shoot those rifles (plus have some fun). I didn't need that much firepower to just hunt deer and hogs.

I see what I consider good "deer rifles" ranging from the 243 up to the 303 British and 8mm Mausers. Thus my post regarding the 270, 30/30, 308 and 30/06 these are in the mid-power/mid-caliber range of the deer rifles I've seen. They are certainly "time tested".

So... especially if you don't reload, Why not pick one or two of those cartridges in rifle(s) that best fit your hunting. If nothing else, set these as the standard and if you don't choose 1 or 2 of them, have a very good reason to go with something else.

I havn't gone above a 338 win for anything. It's heavy and has a real soft recoil pad. My pet has been a 270 with various 130 grain bullets. This is acceptable and enough gun but as I age, I'm looking at short action, thin short barrel and full length stock in 7mm Mauser, 6.5 x 57, or 257 Bob. I shoot a lot of 22-250's, 223's, 22 Hornet, and a .243 with a 70 grain for the long shots. A 243 with a 70 grain bullet and a minimum charge of Superformance is a pure joy to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
[QUOTE]Kinda like starting a 6 or 7 year old off wing shooting with a .410

I used to think along those lines, but with advancements in stock designs and such, I have reassessed my view.

Again, the .410 was only used to illustrate the need for a comfortable gun that doesn't have a lot of bite, or report. If that gun is a youth 20 bore, then so be it.
I'm a fan of the small and medium bore for the lower 48, but wouldn't hesitate to shoot whatever the game requires. I can also assure you that a .458 isn't what I'm carring to shoot gophers, or plink with. Each to his own, but I would enjoy a .223, or .243 much, much more.

If you can kill your animal from any angle, at any range you are capable of then I suppose its enough gun for all circumstances. No need to go up from there.