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one of us |
First let me say thank you to anyone who reads this whole post. I recently aquired a Cape gun and had a question about cal. Before I posted the question here, I sent an email to a Joe Martinelli, with drillinghotline.com. I was kinda suprised at his reply telling me I would have to pay for an evaluation. He also said I could bring it to a show and he would look at it. I ignored it as it seemed odd to have to go that route just ot get info on a caliber. BTW, I posted here at AR(should have in the first place) with great success. Anyway, out of the blue, I get unsolicated spam from that same company. I was furious. First I am told I would have ot pay to find out what 8.8 over a 72 could be, and then I am put on there spam list!!! I was pissed. My question, Is it not acceptable to ask an "expert" a question without excpecting to pay a fee? Here is the the exchange... Am I in the wrong here? My email: quote:His reply: quote:SPAM: quote:My hostle reply: quote:His last reply: quote:My last reply: quote:What do you think..? Not sure who else to ask. Thanks, JAG | ||
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I need to agree with Matt77. You are asking someone to contribute his time ( money ) to do you a favor. Indeed, he did offer to do you one if you would meet him at a show. I see nothing unreasonable in his position, but yours shows a lack of consideration. | |||
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| Moderator |
JAG, I would put this down to the "abrubtness" that often comes from using e-mails has resulted in a misunderstanding. The guy should have been a little clearer in saying that he needed to actually examine the gun to be able to help you and then set out the alternatives...ship it to him for $50 or attend a local gun show...I bet he gets a fair few such e-mails "fishing" for a valuation, a valuation which could make somebody quite a bit of money....As to the spam, at least it seemed relevant to your original enquiry...I would chill a little and accept the guy is just trying to make a living... Regards, Pete | |||
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| one of us |
JAG I agree with the above posters. Remember if you SEND him the gun for evaluation, he would have to take the time to unpack the gun, maybe do a chamber cast, and figure out the internal bbl measurements etc. Provide a written document about his findings. Re-pack the gun and send it back to you. Well worth the price of $50 IMHO. He did agree to look at your drilling for no charge at a gunshow. All that looks up and up to me. As for him sending you info about his site, Drilling users are a select breed [my wife hunts with one, sometimes she lets me use it ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} ], and he has several products that are useful to the Drilling Elite. It does not seem that he was out of line to me.[ 05-13-2003, 17:36: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ] | |||
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IMO, his first email was fine. You asked for a favor, he demurred. All's fine. On the other hand, the spam is unforgivable. My $0.02. Dutch. | |||
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| <Rusty> |
Jag, As I have read your enite post, I am inclined to say that I did not find his response to your request off the wall. If you had posted here or on another board and asked the membership their advice I would have suspected that you would have obtained several "free" responses. I do not think he was out-of-line requesting a fee for his evaluation. It is after all his business. I would not send a rifle to JJ Parodeau at Champlin's and expect his evalutaion for free. He may not charge me, but I would expect his expert opinion to have a fee attached to it. The spam email may have been a simple reminder of the show he had mentoned to you in his reply? Hard to say? I tend to think it was innocent. He had nothing to gain by giving you a free appraisal at the show. The rest of the emails are just you two pawing the ground over a misunderstanding. I am not trying to make you feel bad here. I think he was not wrong in requesting a fee for a mail in appraisal of the weapon. If you really want his opinion. . .I'd go to the show if it is convient for you to travel there. Just my opine here, but I'd email him first and tell him there has obviously been a misunderstanding. I'd try to make things right between you two if you want his evaluation! I'd ask him if he'd still look at the weapon, or I'd ship it and the $50.00. Time you pay gas parking and show fees it would be pretty close! Once again, I'm not trying to jump on the band wagon here, just trying to offer some way for you to get your rifle evaluated. Rusty We band of brothers! | ||
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Spam? You're not interested in gun shows? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} His first reply looked a bit like a form letter, but I guess that's what he had time for. His second reply seemed to make it pretty clear that it wasn't as simple a subject as you might have thought, and probably couldn't be answered with only an exchange of e-mails. | |||
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Do you ask your doctor for free medical advise? | |||
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| one of us |
I requested similar info on an old drilling from Joe and got the same answer. I understand his position but his reply did piss me off at the time. After I started with the chamber cast route I had a finer appreciation of what those old things can be. This one turned out to be an 1873 Werndl. No wonder the bore was still pristine. Abe Lincoln said a lawyers time and advice are his stock and trade. I guess that goes for all of us in business. | |||
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I can understand his position. I have a friend that sells vintage saxophones. He gets 10-15 emails a day from people asking "I got this old saxophone, what is it worth?". It's rather unfair to ask someone to spend their time(money) to help you make money, and do it for free. Simply put, if you expect some of his time, you should be willing to pay for it. Also, he can't give you an accurate answer without having it in hand(time). It's entirely understandable. | |||
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Thanks for all of the replies. I see what most of you are saying however, I never asked what it was worth nor if he was interested in buying it. Yes, my emil was vague, my fault I agree. I also understand his position on these requests. I was only interested in the caliber markings. I did a bad job of conveying that. This whole thing was over until the spam arrived. I felt I needed to say somthing. I dont expect free advice, but I also was only interested in the caliber. Then to recieve his mail from a "list", it was uncalled for. Well I guess I know better next time and stand corrected. Thanks again for your opinions regarding this matter. Next time, I'll just start here. Regards, JAG | |||
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one of us |
JAG, My working definition of spam is email advertising from an unknown sender, usually with forged header information. Reading your exchange above, I thought he offered to look at your gun for free, and then sent you an email where he would be. Maybe I get more spam than you do. Originally spam was mass advertising sent at once to a bulletin board or news list. Things have certainly changed over the years, and not for the better. When I get a mail from someone I know I read it before pulling the delete trigger. The other stuff gets {"front sight... press") right away. I will agree that the distance email imposes on a conversation doesn't help communication. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} jim dodd | |||
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JAG, I HATE spam with a passion, in fact if I were to ever meet a spam programmer that had sent me a junk email, bad things would unfold, but if I would've received that particular "spam" after an email to the guy and his reply stating that I could come to the gunshow and have him check out my gun for free, I would've taken it as a courtesy email letting me know where he would be in the near future if I wanted to follow up on his offer. This of course is my objective opinion, looking at it from both perspectives. Nothing worse than being misinterpreted through email. JMHO take it for what it's worth. | |||
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| one of us |
Only a handful of people speak with authority on drillings. European guns were marked a million ways, and you don't learn what those markings are (and more importantly, what they aren't, and why) overnight. How much is that worth? Subtract the value of a rifle in an unusable caliber that you don't want from the value of the same rifle in a desirable caliber that you do want. That's what his opinion, based on years of accumulated knowledge that you don't have, is worth. Why did he want to see the gun? Because he's been doing this long enough to know not to put a value on something he can't see. Also, I'd bet he takes pride in a correct answer. Since he offered to give you his opinion for free if you would just meet him face to face, I think the "spam" was damned gracious of him. People who deal in specialty items--doubles, fine shotguns, African rifles and, yes, drillings--can spend decades looking for just the right thing, and it's all done by word-of-mouth. I once found a rare S&W 44 for a collector. When he saw it, he didn't say anything, he just unloaded his carry gun (a very nice custom S&W 357), handed it to me and said "Finder's fee." Would I go the extra mile for him next time? You bet. This guy is your door to the drilling market, buy or sell. Clink on the links he provided if you have questions about that. If you decide to get rid of your gun, he can do it much faster than you can and get you more money--if you haven't pissed him off. I differ with the other posters about what to do next. If you're serious about fine drillings, and I get the impression you are, get to the next gun show where he has a table as fast as you can and apologize all over yourself. Guys like him are too rare to piss off over $50. Hope this helps, Okie John. | |||
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Moderator |
Considering you are asking about caliber information on a rifle the dealer has never seen, I see his response as perfectly reasonable, and very professional. Some things to consider, on older guns, caliber markings were inconsistant. There is the possibility the gun was re-chambered during its life. There is the very real possibility that he could provide eroneous information on a gun he's never handled, which could lead you to load the gun with ammunition that could damage the gun and/or injure you. If you don't want to go to the trouble of making a chamber cast, measuring the cast, and comparing it to dimensions of known rounds, why should the dealer do it on his own time? Assuming you've invested a signifigant sum of money on the gun, why wouldn't you want to pay an expert to verify that you know exactly what chamber you have? | |||
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Jag, I am with the other here. Older guns were often chambered in very diferent rounds than are available today. Just look at shotguns and specifically the 16 guagees. The 16 guage was chambered in at least three different lenths that I know of therefore just because it is marked 16 ga does not mean it can shoot modern stuff. THat is whay you need a chamber cast. 8.8 X ??mm only gives diameter and length. It tells you nothing of case tapper, shouler angle, shouler tapper, neck length, etc. All of these vaiables are required to find proper ammo. Yes his e-mail was vague on why he needed to actaully see it to evaluate it. A second e-mail or phone call as to why a physical examination would have been more helpfull. | |||
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Boy, I guess I was way out of line here then. Again, I wasnt asking for value, or history, just if he might have an idea about caliber. He replied during our exchange with a perfectly reasonable anwser, stating that quote:Had that came through the first time, I would have said thanks and considered an evaluation. One post said that it wasnt worth pissing off an "expert" over $50. I diagree. Yep, he may know alot about these guns, and may be the local authority, but the way this was handled, in my eyes anyway, will keep me from buying form him. There are ALWAYS other resources out there. I'll treat this as I do other dealers that I have had bad experiences with, I'll not support them. I gladly pay more for items, from a guy who would just as soon talk about guns then sell them. In this case, bad commo on my behalf, in the begining was to blame. For those that think his email wasnt spam, I suggest you take a moment to think what would happen if everyone you have had any communication with started sending you email. This mail was not sent to ME. I was added to a list, (proof is in the header) so it wasnt a "courtesy". This gun was an impulse buy, and kinda a step to a double, but it has caused more grief then it is worth. Maybe I learned my lesson. At least I know here, I will get a straight awnser, even if my question is not very clear.. Thanks, JAG | |||
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JAG, are you generally this thin skinned? You sound like a heart attack waiting to happen. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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JAG, IN your first e-mail you said you hoped to be able to shoot it or sell it. Yes he could have given more reason why he needed to look at it for caliber but he would need to look at it in case you wanted to sell it because you could not shoot it. | |||
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Good luck, whatever you decide. Okie John | |||
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quote:FWIW, I think that sums it up rather well. I would also suggest that you "apologize all over yourself" as a good first step. Regards, Matt. | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
I would not charge you to determine the caliber of a gun, but I am not in the gun business. What a lot of people fail to understand that people who are in a certain business need to have some return on their professional time and efforts. For example, I used to raise and train Tennessee Walking Horses as a part-time business. Many of my friends could not understand why I expected to be paid something to evaluate their horses, or to teach them/their horses something!! But when it came to tax time, the I.R.S. expected me to show a profit after a few years!! Didn't he offer a free consultation if you brought the gun to a show?? Not at all unfair, IMO!! [ 05-15-2003, 21:46: Message edited by: eldeguello ] | ||
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Dutch, Thick-skinned, thats funny. I guess at times. I just did not see the fault until going through it many times and conversing with Joe again. The whole thing has been completely resolved and I have seen the error of my ways. I will continue to be on the mailing list as I was asked if that would be ok. Thanks again everyone for straightening me out! Regards, JAG | |||
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one of us |
JAG, call Bob Jones in Ft. Worth, TX. Sorry, I don't have his phone number but he advertises in Gun List, Double Gun Journal, may have a website or try Ft. Worth telephone directory. He's a foremost authority and dealer in drillings and a very cordial guy. Here it is: www.bobjonesguns.com [ 05-22-2003, 01:18: Message edited by: fla3006 ] | |||
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