Gents:

I'm a new member, but have been trolling these pages as a guest for some time now. The discussions always great and it's obvious that there is a lot of combined knowledge and experience here.

Our state governor has closed down gun sales with the assistance of our State Police (...and whatever you think about that, I'm sure I agree with you). But assuming we can all get through this COVID-19 thing, I'm going to pick up a Pre-64 Model 70 at my local gun pusher's.

The rifle dates back to '59 and appears to be in good shape. A buddy of mine finally talked me into going on a buffalo hunt with him (American Bison, not anything in Africa, Asia or Australia), and I was planning on taking that rifle with me. I'd like to develop some loads that will be both accurate and effective. I swore off Magnum 30's a couple decades ago, but it appears I've got the bug again.

That said,

1. What about heavier bullets in this rifle; e.g., 200 - 220 grains? Obviously I want the quickest kill possible to minimize suffering by the animal.

2. Would you be worried about higher pressures in this older rifle? I don't personally reload, but have used Superior Ammunition in teh past and they put together a couple great packages for me.

3. I know this is probably an impossible question to answer, but what kind of accuracy should I expect from this rifle? I just don't to be unrealistic.

4. Lastly, I am thinking about ordering a new Model 70, or maybe two: one in .338 Win. Mag. (the new Alaskan) and one in .375 H&H (the new African). Experiences?

Thanks for any feedback, fellas. Be well.

First post; good.
Accuracy: no one can tell you that. Too many variables; you will get from .5 to 5 moa.
Most humane on a bison; walk up and shoot it in the head and if you walk beside a horse they won't mind. I have done that and they can't count legs.
Want to buy larger calibers; I am all for it; anything is better than a 30 caliber. Many will disagree. I don't use them because everyone else does.
I have killed 5 bison. They are easy to kill, but hard to make them realize it. Unless you brain them, or break both shoulders, which you don't want or need to do.
I once shot one right behind the shoulder with a 450 Nitro double rifle; both barrels, the bullets sailed through and the buffalo just walked for 50 yards and laid down.
I have also used much slower lead bullets with better effect. 45-60 in a Win 76. The place I used to go would not allow any modern cartridge. I am for using a historic BP cartridge; any modern thing will certainly do the job with any bullet. Punch a big hole through the lungs or heart but that is very low and hidden by the leg bone, and they will die. Usually will lay down very soon.
So, my take on using a 300 H&H on a bison; sure if you want to; it will be easy. I would use a 200 grain bullet.
And you definitely have to start reloading.

The Alaskan model 375 HH is a better balanced 375 HH than the Safari Express. The Safari Express in 375 has the 458 Win barrel contour.

The only issue with the 375 Alaskan is the fold down Rear sight that can be easily addressed. If you are lucky you might find one of the SS and laminated stock Alaskans.

In anything, but the largest 30cals, I would be happy with our great premium and faster bullets. I can’t see anything I want to do with a 300HH walking away from a 180grain Aframe, Accubond, Barnes, or Tipped Trophy Bonded Bearclaw at 2900-3000 fps. I would use he Barnes on bison. Barnes are longer for their weight than lead core Bullets bc soild copper is not as dense. Sedond would be Aframe. Jim Shockey used 180grain, 300WM Partition on a Woodland bison with full winter coat. It worked well.

If the older, Pre64, rifle is solid then it is safe. The pre 64 actions are still used for custom builds for much heavier and high pressure cartridges.

Thanks much for the feedback, brother. I think you may said some time that you had a Searcy double? Always wanted to meet Butch. His brother lives out here where I live and he's a great guy.

Interesting to note your experience with the 45-60 and a BP cartridge. That is righteous. I'm curious where that hunt took place? I didn't realize that was a thing (other than "muzzleloader only" seasons). It sure sounds fun!

I do have a love for the old nitro cartridges, of course, but the black powder cartridges have such a storied history in America - particularly with the great buffalo - that you might have just provided me with an excuse for another rifle/project/hunt/trip. Label me grateful.

And yes, reloading needs to commence around my pad soon: it's inevitable (and from what I hear, therapeutic).

LHeym500,

Thank you for your feedback, amigo. I took note of your commentary regarding the balance of the Model 70 Safari. That Alaskan with the stainless and laminate stock looks like the perfect all-around, travel-the-globe rifle. I noticed it on Winchester's website last night, actually (although I can't remember if they're still making that same configuration). I think you just helped me decide that equation.

Also, I ordered a couple boxes of Federal Premium 180's with the Trophy Bonded Tip - we'll see how they shoot. If nothing else, it will help me get that rifle figured out and some fire-formed brass to boot. Also, I think I'm not going to shy away from magnification on this rifle. I can't shoot any better than I can see and even though I've never really bought into the long-distance hunting thing, my 53- year-old eyes just aren't what they used to be.

Again, my thanks for your time.

The laminated and stainless has been discontinued. There was one in 338wm on gunbroker 2 months ago. I would ask in the classifieds, check Guns International and Gunbroker.

My father in law has a 375 Stainless Steel and laminate stock Alaskan. Sadly, I can’t even buy it.

The walnut and blue Alaskan is still better to my hands in 375 HH than the Safari.

Of course, the new Alaskan is available in 338 WM. The original Alaskan was the pre 64 338WM Model 70.

This one sold, but so you can see one.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/92...Laminate-375-H-H.htm

Scroll to bottom.

There’s probably no one that’s own more .300 H&H,s than me over the past 30 years. Still my favorite caliber. I’m with DPCD, go with a 200 gr unless you use a TTSX in 180 gr. But go with what your rifle shoots best. My first .300H&H was a pre 64 model 70, it shot great and dropped some nice deer.

MD is right of course. I went to Dodge City Kansas to a ranch on one of the original bison grounds. Hawes ranch. He only allowed period cartridges with lead bullets. After all they worked to wipe out the entire bison population in the 1870s. Big lead bullets work for them. Do not shoot them too high.; nothing up there but bone and meat and the spine is small, in the hump.
I did get the one with the 450 at another place.
A 375 might be fun to use,; I like the caliber and have 4 of them. but I would stick with BP cartridges; more of a challenge and you feel like they did in 1870s. My friend always used a Sharps 40-70. You get the idea. They aren't cape buffalo. They are easy to punch a hole through.

LHeym500,

Thank you or your efforts to search and provide me with that link. I appreciate you, amigo.

Dr. Stewart (I presume),

It's your affection for this grand, old caliber that tells me what I need to know. Of course, there's no substitute for experience, either and that is why I prefer the site to certain others (think black and semi-automatic).

lpcd,

Aren't you the bloke with that beautiful little Rigby-Patterned Mauser for sale? The 7x57/.275 Rigby on the '09 Argentine action? You gotta tell me about that build. Did you direct the work? Who performed it? Who built up the action into a square bridge? I have an historical connection to that caliber and maker, but I won't bore you with that. Suffice it to say that I've used it on a dozen hunts with a custom Ruger No. 1 and the damned thing was just a magic wand - I pointed it at something and it died. I traded it like an idiot and have regretted it ever since.

Sorry for all my typos - I meant "dpcd."

Adam, the 200 grain modern controlled expansion bullet is an extremely effective projectile when placed right. DPCD has built some guns for me. His knowledge is vast as his understanding of guns generally. He made me 9.3x62s and is working on a 7x57 twin to the 9.3 at the moment. He favors Douglas barrels and certainly knows how to put a gun together. There are more knowledgeable hunters here than any other forum extant. Glad to have you aboard. I have family in Ruidoso.

Jeff

Thanks for the compliment but you know I make half this stuff up.
As for rifles, I do everything but the checkering and bluing.
Blue and Dr Stewart are far more experienced hunters though.

I did a hunt for bison some years ago on the ranch they used to film "Dances with wolves".
Crawled up through the light snow cover to the top of a rise, picked one out, and the guide told me to wait until it turned it's head sideways, and put the slug 2" below the ear hole.
Damned if it didn't drop like a sack of potatoes.

Adam,

The 200 gr Nosler Partition is a very good one bullet for everything match for the 300 H&H. In your Pre '64's 26 inch barrel you should be able to get 2900 fps. With that load anything at reasonable ranges is in big trouble. Put one right behind the bison's front leg and you have loads of steaks, roasts and burger. No worries about an older rifle. You can run that Pre '64 as hot as anything available today.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Bell:
LHeym500,

Thank you or your efforts to search and provide me with that link. I appreciate you, amigo.

Dr. Stewart (I presume),

It's your affection for this grand, old caliber that tells me what I need to know. Of course, there's no substitute for experience, either and that is why I prefer the site to certain others (think black and semi-automatic).

lpcd,

Aren't you the bloke with that beautiful little Rigby-Patterned Mauser for sale? The 7x57/.275 Rigby on the '09 Argentine action? You gotta tell me about that build. Did you direct the work? Who performed it? Who built up the action into a square bridge? I have an historical connection to that caliber and maker, but I won't bore you with that. Suffice it to say that I've used it on a dozen hunts with a custom Ruger No. 1 and the damned thing was just a magic wand - I pointed it at something and it died. I traded it like an idiot and have regretted it ever since.

Not a doctor, but once played one on tv (joke). MD stands for Michael Duncan Stewart. Hard to get more Scottish than that.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Thanks for the compliment but you know I make half this stuff up.
As for rifles, I do everything but the checkering and bluing.
Blue and Dr Stewart are far more experienced hunters though.

What a joke.

For what its worth...

The old Pre 64 M70's are a work of art, but don't be surprised if the old factory one isn't as accurate as you hope. That being said, it will undoubtedly be more than accurate enough for a bison.

The .300 H&H is one of the more forgiving .300's to load for. It tends to shoot any weight bullet reasonably well. I've seen a bison killed with lesser rifles- like a .270 or a 7mm mag using 140 grain bullets. It also tends to beat the shooter up less than something like a .300 RUM or .300 WBY. If you want to use a 220 or 200 partition or a 200 A Frame, you will have no issues with penetration.

As others have said, if the rifle is in good shape, no worries about any reasonable load in a .300 H&H. I have a custom built pre 64 M70 in .300 RUM, and it has no problems whatsoever- but that is a new barrel, etc.

I would expect hunting grade accuracy out of a 1959 era M70, and would not be too surprised if it is better than that. Most rifles of that era were 1.5-2" at 100 yards.

The latest M70's with CRF are every bit as good or better than the old ones from a function point of view. I've got a couple, and they are 1 MOA or better with their preferred loads. No issues with a new one. As to cartridge choice, if you have a .300, I don't see a .338 WM as being that much of a step up; the .375 is a big step up in power. With the .375 you will be fine with anything that walks the planet, so if you decide Africa or the biggest bears are on the menu, you will be ready. Coincidentally, to me, the recoil of a fast .300 or a lighter .338 is much sharper and more unpleasant than a .375.

I sold my 300 H+H a few years ago. It was a great rifle + calibre but I was not using it. I personally prefer the 375 H+H. I have not shot a bison but I have a nilgai + they take a decent calibre to put them down.

Gents, I'm just overwhelmed. Why the Hell didn't I join up earlier? I thought about it and realized that 20 years goes by in roughly in what seems about five years when you're raising your children. Now that they're out of the house, my old obsession has resurfaced with a vengeance - kind of like a happy case of Siphilis.

Individually (and I don't know quite what I'm doing on these blog sites yet, so forgive my ignorance of technique and protocol), but...

crbutler, thanks for that scoop on the fast 30's. Again, I think that's what got me away from them 20 years ago. Love to say I never flinched, but I did every third shot or so. With '06 and below I didn't and could place my shots right. I'm a better shooter now for sure, so I hope I'll have a better experience with these bigger calibers. I hate those damned muzzle brakes, too, although I realize they're a practical addition for certain rifles. But WOW they suck for your buddies! I heard that the 300 and even 375 H&H had more of a "push" than a sharp slap.

Mike, I, too am basically a Scotsman. Bell is Scottish, complete with it own tartan. We were originally a sept of McMillan until the Queen outlawed us for stealing her cattle (a "reiver" clan). You Stewarts have quite the story, though!

DPCD, I was actually relieved to find out you had sold that little carbine. I was literally trying to come up with excuses for She Who Must Be Obeyed when I saw it, and that was before we had even talked.

Mark, I'm now following your Facebook page! I got a feeling you and I are gonna meet, brother. I'm in Vegas at least once a year for courses related to what I do for a living and they're always the best. I think folks that do what I do are just drawn to that place like flies (...or fleas, perhaps).

Tom, Dances With Wolves? That's just f*$&ing awesome! Is that South Dakota? Don't know why I'm thinking that.

bluefish, are you in the Great State of Montana, by chance? Or Wyoming? I spent three weeks out in Wyoming last year at a beautiful ranch. Didn't get to do any hunting, though, but it definitely stirred up the gut!

Again, what a great way to be welcomed, gents. Appreciate you guys.

Norman, I think you posted while I was drafting my response. Thanks for the shout-out, bro. There's a chance I'll be moving to Austin in the next year and if so, you'll have to tell where I can go to shoot these wonderful things. Great city and just "lit"! I can't believe the videos my daughters are sending me from there (both of them moved to Austin). It really does look like an apocalypse happened.

I have five 300h&h rifles one of which is a pre64 M-70 Supergrade. It is very accurate and will put 5 bullets into a ragged hole at 100 yards. I personally prefer 200gr bullets with the 300 mags - they give you higher sectional density than than 180’s and more velocity than the 220’s. I guess you could say I’m kind of partial to the caliber too.

Thanks, Mike_TX! You've got FIVE? Wow! What else besides the Pre-64 M70? I can see where people can get addicted to one classic caliber like that.

I'm hearing real consistently that the 200-grainers are just kind of ideal in this rifle. I became partial to longer-rather-than-shorter bullets hunting hogs in Texas with a 7x57. I even used some "vintage" ammo in that rifle (a Ruger No. 1) and the cartridges looked like something out of 1925. If nothing else, the research conducted by US SOCOM and others with respect to the 6.5 Creedmoor has really proven that sectional density is a valid consideration. (Of course, the Swedes figured that out in what - 1891?)

I do hope it's a shooter, but I deliberately bought a "hunting grade" rifle, rather than a collector grade rifle (which is what I used to do), so that I can feel free to do whatever I want to it; e.g., have someone true up the action, install and contour a nice Krieger barrel for it, etc. So either way I plan to have fun with this rifle and actually hunt with it. I think too, that I may have spent too much time in the US Army - I have a habit of using my rifle as a weed whacker, and the like, so maybe going in for perfect blued steel and walnut is not, in the end, a practical choice for me.

Mr. Bell, If you think I am hijacking tell me. I will delete this post.

Gentlemen;0: Please tell us stories, pictures of game, rifles, or targets would be great.

Better than anything on tv and all new movies.

Adam, I am actually located in Maine but spent a nice.summer working in Yellowstone in college. Thought western Montana was.really something.

LHeym500,


I think you're a genius and read my mind! Being the freshman here, I didn't want to overreach.

We could turn this into a classic thread on the .300 H&H with a request like that!

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Bell:
Thanks, Mike_TX! You've got FIVE? Wow! What else besides the Pre-64 M70? I can see where people can get addicted to one classic caliber like that.

The other four 300h&h's are custom rifles I had built:

Two were built by Duane Wiebe using Mauser actions
Rifle 1 built on Chilean 1935 action....has 25" barrel
Rifle 2 built on Brno ZG-47 action.....has a 24" barrel

Hagn Single Shot built by Ralf Martini....has 26" barrel
--shot a cow elk with this one last year. Used 200gr Nosler Accubond that chronos at MV=2950fps

Hagn Take Down Single Shot built by Martin Hagn......has 26" barrel

As far as building a 300 H&H, I am working on two of them now; one on P14 Enfield action and one on a smooth feed Model 70; no need for "crf" if you know how to operate a bolt action rifle. If you train on them, as the Army snipers do, you will never have a problem. Trust me, rounds are fully controlled in them; but that is for another thread. Bolt face on the P14s is already magnum size and the actions are made for long mag cartridges.
Douglas barrels; use the best and most responsive to my custom orders. All others, pale by comparison. Most in serious ways.
One will have a semi fancy walnut stock; not sure about the second one. Just started with them so it will be a while. Other barrels to finish first.

On your question 4 about new rifles - I have bought several over the past couple of years. To a rifle, they are accurate out of the box with factory ammo. By accurate, I mean 1"- 1 1/4" groups. I have seen the best accuracy with the Extreme Weather version of the model 70 - 3 guns with less than 1" groups.

I have several pre-64 and pre-war model 70's. All are accurate. All are dependable. However, in my opinion, I see NO difference between the pre war, pre-64 and the new actions. To me, the new ones are excellent. Further, I have had 4 pre-64's that were all original. None shot as well as the new ones. The pre-64's functioned fine but just did not have the less than 1" groups. I used factory ammo on those. I suppose reloads would give better accuracy, but I really am not overwhelmed or dumbstruck by the mystic or the pre-war/pre-64 actions. Todays barrels are better than 50 years ago - no doubt in my mind.

Anyway, a .300 HH will be fun and should shoot very well with some tinkering.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_TX:


--shot a cow elk with this one last year. Used 200gr Nosler Accubond that chronos at MV=2950fps



Mike_T
Curious what your loading is with the 200grain Nosler Accubond @2950fps with a 24-25” barrel?

Today's barrels are far better than factory barrels were 50, (or even 30 years ago). Is a very true statement.
Even the cheapest factory barrels nowadays shoot very well, on average.

quote:

Originally posted by 4WD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_TX:


--shot a cow elk with this one last year. Used 200gr Nosler Accubond that chronos at MV=2950fps



Mike_T
Curious what your loading is with the 200grain Nosler Accubond @2950fps with a 24-25” barrel?

The Hagn Single Shot has a 26" barrel

Load Data is.....MAX LOAD in this rifle, so you need to reduce and work up for your rifle. It was too HOT for my bolt actions!

200gr Nosler Accubond
71.0grs H-4831sc
Remington Brass
Fed.#215 primer
OAL=3.6"
3 shot group print <1/2" at 100yds

As a comparison, Factory Federal 180gr Nosler Partitions chrono at 2969fps in this rifle. It has a gain twist barrel and it's a pretty fast barrel.

My bolt actions are pushing the 200gr bullets at 2850-2870fps.....granted the barrels are 24" and 25".....

Adam,

I bought my pre 64 300 H&H and whilst decent it wasn’t that great. Best groups would hover around 1.5”.

A few years ago, I decided to put a new barrel, Timney, custom stock and clean up the action. Huge difference! Now it’s .5” gun with 5 shots at a 100!.

My favourite load is a 180gr TTSX at 3030 feet per second (26” barrel). With that combination I’ve taken many eland and giraffe. Bullet placement is important but you definitely won’t be short of penetration on broadside shots!

Best wishes
MD

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_TX:



The Hagn Single Shot has a 26" barrel

Load Data is.....MAX LOAD in this rifle, so you need to reduce and work up for your rifle. It was too HOT for my bolt actions!

200gr Nosler Accubond
71.0grs H-4831sc
Remington Brass
Fed.#215 primer
OAL=3.6"
3 shot group print <1/2" at 100yds

As a comparison, Factory Federal 180gr Nosler Partitions chrono at 2969fps in this rifle. It has a gain twist barrel and it's a pretty fast barrel.

My bolt actions are pushing the 200gr bullets at 2850-2870fps.....granted the barrels are 24" and 25".....

Mike_T
Thanks for your reply.
I load for my .300 Weatherby and I am at 2950fps with IMR7828 and Nosler 200 grain Partitions and Accubonds. Very accurate.
I have a .300H&H 25” barrel, on the way. I have IMR7828, Norma MRP and IMR4831 to try with Nosler 180grain & 200grain Accubonds and Partitions.

I would recommend getting the following book if you are a RELOADER:

African Medium Game Cartridges
by Pierre van der Wall

has lots of medium bore loads besides just the 300H&H, but on the 300H&H it has load data for 250gr, 220gr, 200gr, 190gr, 180gr, 170gr, 165gr, 150gr and 130gr bullet weights. Pretty comprehensive list of loads (6 pages of load data).


He has another book for big bores - African Dangerous Game Cartridges which has lots reloading data for big bore rifles.

Both books are excellent. Get them from Safari Press or Amazon.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_TX:
The other four 300h&h's are custom rifles I had built:

Two were built by Duane Wiebe using Mauser actions
Rifle 1 built on Chilean 1935 action....has 25" barrel
Rifle 2 built on Brno ZG-47 action.....has a 24" barrel

Hagn Single Shot built by Ralf Martini....has 26" barrel

God, but you have exquisite taste, my friend. Nothing finer could I imagine! (Although an original Holland Super 30 with the Holland side mount sounds pretty bitchin'!) And it's interesting to hear that your load on the Hagn was too hot for your bolt guns - that was a surprise, for sure.

The ZG47 is one of the better rifles I have owned. I had one in 7x57 I bought at a pawn shop next to an Air Force base. I wasn't in the military anymore when I bought it, but this particular military base near my home in San Diego just had a ton of guys going to and from Europe and I thought they just might have some interesting hardware - sure enough, they did. Sold it right after law school because all us new grads were just broke and couldn't find jobs.

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:
Adam,

I bought my pre 64 300 H&H and whilst decent it wasn’t that great. Best groups would hover around 1.5”.

A few years ago, I decided to put a new barrel, Timney, custom stock and clean up the action. Huge difference! Now it’s .5” gun with 5 shots at a 100!.

My favourite load is a 180gr TTSX at 3030 feet per second (26” barrel). With that combination I’ve taken many eland and giraffe. Bullet placement is important but you definitely won’t be short of penetration on broadside shots!

Best wishes
MD

MD375, thanks for that! I think I'm secretly hoping that I will "have to" get it re-barreled, etc. That's encouraging news! I keep hearing about that 180gr TTSX - that thing sounds like hell on wheels.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
On your question 4 about new rifles - I have bought several over the past couple of years. To a rifle, they are accurate out of the box with factory ammo. By accurate, I mean 1"- 1 1/4" groups. I have seen the best accuracy with the Extreme Weather version of the model 70 - 3 guns with less than 1" groups.

I have several pre-64 and pre-war model 70's. All are accurate. All are dependable. However, in my opinion, I see NO difference between the pre war, pre-64 and the new actions. To me, the new ones are excellent. Further, I have had 4 pre-64's that were all original. None shot as well as the new ones. The pre-64's functioned fine but just did not have the less than 1" groups. I used factory ammo on those. I suppose reloads would give better accuracy, but I really am not overwhelmed or dumbstruck by the mystic or the pre-war/pre-64 actions. Todays barrels are better than 50 years ago - no doubt in my mind.

Anyway, a .300 HH will be fun and should shoot very well with some tinkering.

Bwana 4 Shots, what is it about some guides and trackers that they are so merciless when we fall short of one-shot perfection? (I've had the experience, too - still feeling the sting 22 years later). Thank you for not only responding, but for posting those epic safaris of yours. Your posts really are as good as any book and I can read one in 15 or 20 minutes and come away inspired.

On that note, I've taken the liberty of sharing some of them with my wife, who has it on her bucket list that we are to climb Kilimanjaro together. My fitness level is going to have to go beyond "fit'ness taco in my mouth," if I hope to succeed.

I have two:

-Winchester 1885 High-Wall
-Winchester Pre-64 M70

I have taken white tails with the single shot, but have yet to shoot the M70. It was recently acquired and this damn virus has kept me from burning powder.

I bought a number of boxes of the Federal Premium 180gr. Trophy Bonded Tip. The load seemed to work well on the deer. My “Gun Jockey” gave me some light (maybe 150gr. or so) handloads. These came with the M70, so I haven’t shot them yet.

It’s a beautiful round. I have others I really like, but can’t wait to give the M70 a go.

Phil Massaro has written plenty on the .300 H&H. I believe he’s pretty impartial, unlike other writers, as it’s not like there are many new guns in the caliber that need the “love” in the gun rags.

Adam, here in central Texas as everywhere the sxxt has literally hit the fan. Are you the gent that I gave the phone numbers to a couple of my landlord friends for your daughter? If you move down here I'm out in the country + we shoot out here. I am limited to 100 metres but up the road, there is a 'Best of the West' range that goes to 1000.

Norman,

I'm not that guy, but if I'd have known you were on this site, you WOULD have been LOL! I say that because we just moved my youngest daughter into anew place about four months ago, in Austin.

Let's stay in touch, brother. I've spoken to the firm again and it appears that the job I'll be moving there for will be there, but nobody is sure of a start date yet. I'm still looking at at properties every day via email. You just answered a question that had been rolling around in my head; i.e., a longer range facility.

Thanks for the shout-out, brother!