Justc: Your comment speaks volumes. I've never seen an Echols, Biesen or David Miller rifles at BR matches either so I guess Weatherbys are in good company. jorge

I have seen sakos at the BR matches,..never seen a weatherby though

What are you talking about, fun matches?

Bench guns are Stolle, BAT, Viper, Nesika etc and reworked 700s and 40Xs.

Mike

Gentlemen, putting down an action because it's not found in the benchrest circles is hitting below the belt as far as hunting rifles are concerned.

You don't find Winchester M-70 or mauser '98 actions there and I seriously doubt that one can get away with calling these "poor actions" for a hunting rifle.

I'm surprised that the Sako barrel and action splitting debacle hasn't been hit harder than it has. It's almost as if we've all forgotten about this....or have we blamed Beretta...the importer.....? I'm still amazed at the refusal of Sako (and it's importer) to admit this and address it with a general statement and recall. That this has been allowed to pass is even more amazing.

That said I can also walk away from Weatherby for the crap I bought from them years ago. If this is not your experience so be it...it definitely is mine.

To compare weatherby to Sako is akin to comparing dirt to mud. To compare either of them to D'Arcy Echols is a true insult to a master artist.

Vapodog

Same deal in Australia with Beretta. I think Beretta own Sako and there is a connection that goes right back because I think Sako use to make rifle for Beretta but without the goofy tapered dovetails.

Personally, and I am not the only one in Australia, I would not even a fire a modern made Sako without wearing a suit of armour and Beretta's attitude only adds to that.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
I have seen sakos at the BR matches,..never seen a weatherby though.

Had them both,..and I would sell a wthby to buy a sako any day of the week. I am glad there are wthby collectors,..they make my job easier.

That's strange. I have seen Weatherby's at BR matches in both custom rifles using the Mark V action and in Weatherby calibers. I and a few others that went with me used to shoot BR matches locally. My rifle was a custom Mark V chambered for the 7mm Weatherby. The others used Weatherby calibers from 6.5mm-.300 to .300 Weatherby in their custome Mark V's. Of course I haven't been to a BR match since I started my own business in 1993(I always though when a person started their own business they were supposed to have all this extra time on their hands) so things may have changed. Lawdog

I like the Sako deluxe best. I think it's more for the way the stock fit's me than anything else, but hey that's kinda important.

Terry

I've got a safe full of pre-Garcia Sako rifles. They, together with some Mannlicher Schoenauers, are the finest factory guns I own. Having said the above, I would not touch a new Sako. I like my fingers and eyes just as they are.

Varmint class uses more of the Nesika, Stolle, etc custom actions but the majority of shooters I SEE when I GO TO the IBS matches are on rem700's. That being said,..the last match I shot was a 100yd match (which yes,..I shot for fun) had 2 very nice stainless sako actions on the line,..and they were very potent competitiors. As to wthby's,..I have yet to see one in serious competition, at least at the 600 and 1000yd IBS matches.

9 locking lugs makes it a very long and expensive process to get a square bolt and body alignment. My smith was able to lapp mine little by little to get them all to make contact,..and the addition of the remington barrel has made it actually shoot well.

Sako's are very true right from the box,..that is worth $$$ every day of the week.

as to hunting rifles,..let's be real here, they can be any old rig that shoots 1moa and feeds reliably. If one wishes to have all the engraving and metal work and fancy walnut stocks added,.then more power to them. But, the same rifle without all that would shoot just as well, maybe even better sitting in a mcmillan stock. Pretty is pretty,..that I can appreciate very much, but it has NOTHING at all to do with accuracy. My hunting rifles are just that,..hunting rifles. A good load is found and they are put in the safe to await the season.

accuracy seperates the performers from the lookers,..only the accurate make it on the firing line, everything else gets put back in the case.

Use whatever maker you wish to use and spend as much as you want,..when you get my answer/opinion, it is based strictly on accuray potential and out of the box performance.

the response about wood was directed at the "hunting rifle" or fancy custom rifle comments about them not being BR rifles but very nice and expensive and so-on and so-forth.

the reality of it is, wthby's garantee is worth nothing (TO ME) as 1 1/2" is a joke as far as I am concerned. hell,..even 1" is one which I will gladly pass along to those who would find that acceptable. Remington doesn't make any garantees,..but then again,..they don't have to. Of the 20 or so I have had and/or built rifles on later,..NONE were ever over 1" with factory ammo and with handloads all are 1/2" guns and better,..even with factory stocks and pencil barrels.

Now to re-iterate

9 locking lugs is a joke,..hence no 9 locking lug receivers EVER being manufactured for accuracy work by any other firm. Next, Sako actions have better locking lug engagement, better action faces, and more square bolt faces right out of the box,..that equates to accuracy. Both actions are smooth and finished in very attractive ways,..however, for equal $$ and equal caliber, I'll take the sako every single day of the week and sell every MK V I can get for a cheap price to finance the sako projects. Sako Barrels for one are far superior to wthby tubes,..unless you count the half assed kreigers thay are now using (button rifled, NOT cut rifled). Those are good barrels,..but then again wthby didn't make them. I have 2 NIB in the white finnbear actions in the safe and both even before putting them together have 50-75% lug engagement on both lugs before the gunsmith has ever laid eyes on them, the wthby's I have worked with, well lets just say I am happy with 30% on 4-5 out of the 9 lugs. Why hunt with a less accurate action when you spend about the same money? That makes little sense to me.

To each his own,..YMMV,....I have fired multiple examples of just about everything made. I usually end up doing the load work for just about everyone I know who doesn't load,..so I get to see just what all the other rifles out there can and can't do. Wthby's are smooth and attractive,..no doubt about that, even my MK V action (Frankenstein as I like to call the rig), but for accuracy concerns, there are better options (I for one want as close to BR accuracy out of my hunting rifles as I can get).

Yes, BR rifles are highly worked actions, because they are competing for accuracy scoring,..however, they had to have maximum potential in order to be chosen by the gunsmiths and shooters. No matter how you slice it,..sako is the only choice of the 2 in the original 2 choices for BR work,..and IMHO is the better choice for accuracy as a hunting rifle, whether it wears a pink and purple stock with polka-dots and lace trim or a $3000 peice of bastogne walnut cut buy one of the fine members here who specialize in that. The action is the foundation of the whole system, and I have found sako to produce a tighter action than wthby, at least whilst I have been loading and shooting them,..YMMV

almost forgot,..a simple rebarrel job on a NIB win70 or rem700 by Hart, PacNor, Lija, etc etc will run you the same price as the NIB wthby with an accuracy garantee of 1/2-1/3 the size of the wthby garantee. same money, much better rifle.

so AGAIN, in case it wasn't clear I'll take the Sako over the wthby every time,..and for the reasons I listed. The sako design lends itself to accuracy moreso than the wthby. 2 lugs vs 9 lugs,..ask a gunsmith.

One of our local higher-end gunsmiths aquired a few Sako 75 Actions to make into project guns. Accordingly he made the tooling to set-up and square the actions. The first M-75 he set-up was dead nuts on (I haven't heard about the rest yet), but he was saying he may have wasted time setting up the tooling for trueing the actions - they don't need it............DJ

In my experience with bench style rifles the barrel, bedding (or glue in), scope, mounts and ammunition make for most of the accuracy.

The main contribution from the action is such things as triggers and mounts that are obtainable.

Get a Mauser action or a Rem 700, Wby etc and if bedded correctly and scope and mounts are OK and of course ammunition is OK, that will obtain most of the barrels potential.

Now if you are talking bench rest competition things change.

I would agree that a Model 70 or Rem 700 with a match grade barrel added will most likley shooot better than a factory Wby, assuming same calibre. But add a match grade barrel to the Wby and it will be luck of the draw which shoots best. The Wby will cost more for sure. Also Wby offer the Kreiger cut rifle barrel and action work by Kreiger as an option.

Mike

Mike378,..very true and well stated. Now,..just between you and I,..what do you think that wthby with action and cut rifled tube would cost from wthby? $2500? $3000? How much remchester would that buy? maybe enough price difference to pay for a top end scope.

However,..don't neglect the importance of a true action at the face, bolt face, and lug/lug seats. The consistency that provides makes for a much better aggregate group size,..and even in a hunting rifle, that matters when shooting at more than the casual distance.

JustC

You won't get any arguments from me that the Wby is not going to win any price wars.

If I was having an accuracy rifle made and that was the main goal, then the Wby custom shop or even using a Wby action would be at the bottom of the list.

But Sako would also be at the bottom of the list as well.

If I was an American I could give a better car analogy but I am sure you will get the idea....you could go and buy a Camaro tomorrow and with some dollars leave the Porsche for dead and have money left in your pocket.

I see rifles in a similar light. At the end of the day it comes down to you what you want to own and also afford or are prepared to pay.

For example, if you want an accuracy rifle and wood stock and funds are limited by either choice or necessity, then a Wby Deluxe is not a good starting point.

Mike

JustC

PS,

A done up Accumark from the custom shop would be around $4000US with the titanium nitride finish and Kreiger cut barrel and action work.

Mike

Mike378,..we are on the same page The $4000 price tag would easily build a custom actioned, mcmillan stocked, nightforce glassed rig with no room for complaint.

let's face it,..other than the wait,..the cut rifled Kreiger blank is still shy of $400 and a good remchester action can be had completely trued up for another $600 even with a sleeved bolt.

But the sako is probably one of the best all around actions on the market for a fine quality, attractive "hunting" rifle. Slick as eel slime on a brass door-knob.

djpaintles,..my gunsmith said the very same thing on my 1st of 3 NIB actions. His comment was this..." if I try to true it up,..I'll screw it up". This is the guy who builds my benchrest rifles That is all the data I need If he runs my rem700's down to the .0001" of an inch tolerances, then that statement speaks volumes as to the sako product.

JustC

I agree completely with you on the Sako.

The only problem with them is for accurate rifles in say 375 where lots of shooting is done and the problem is the tapered dovetails.

Any mount for then that has a screw clamp on one side is fucked. Although Near have bases that you belt on.

A gunsmith in Australia (who is now dead) use to have bases made for them from some steel, I think is was called Wibrac, and the bases were belted on and he had mild steel shims between the base and the dovetail.

But don't bet against the Wby custom shop. It can be pricey but the service and gear is good. The pre packaged Wby custom stuff is not like when you go to "non catologued"

In terms of standard rifles I have always felt that Wbys best value was rifles in the 378 based calibres. Even if you bought a new CZ 416 Rigby and rebarreled it to 378, then organised a muzzle brake and did something with the stock the Wby would look good value.

The ideal Sako would be the ones that Beretta had them make many many years ago with a round top action.

With their tapered dovetails things would also be improved if the recoil stop on the rear dovetail was more substantial.

In Australia where the volume of shooting is much higher than anywhere else, one problem that will come with Sako on the bigger calibres is the base on the front dovetail will split.

But all this stuff is horses for courses and they all have their good and bad points.

Personally I think Sako had gone cheap with the action recoil lug and not having the scaled actions. It would not suprise me if this "go cheap" is related to the blow ups.

Main Wby problems are poor primary extraction and cam forward caused by the 54 degree bolt lift. Front screw not in the centre of the bedding flat and to compound the problem the screw going into the long recoil lug means very little stock material between the bottom of the lug and the floor plate.

Wbys also need strong magazine springs because the bolt in the open position has a row of lugs on the bottom which of course forces the case below the bolt nose.

That bottom row of lugs makes a mess of those expensive cases. The H&H bases Wbys also tear cases around a fair bit because of the feed lips on the magazine.

On the positive side, a Wby is about the most reliable feeder out there and much of that is because they do the lot from the magazine, much like the 303 SMLE.

The 378 based Wbys with their in line feed just don't miss when it comes to feeding.

If the brass is old and tired the combination of poor primary extraction and the parallel sided cases can mean lifting the bolt but then having to knock it back to free the case.

As to the Wby calibres, if the freebore diameter is too big and the barrel is only so so, then you will pull your hair out.....And for some reason such a rifle gets worse when bedded and floated.

The 460s with a bag of lead shot behind them are the most accurate big bores I have seen. But they are a semi custom shop rifle. A 500 grain Hornady usually needs to be tapped down the freebore section, which is about 3/4" on a 460. In other words on the 460 the freebore is right on bullet diameter.

As a side note, those 9 locking lugs when the bolt is closed have the two bottom set at 4 O'Clock and 8 O'Clock which allows Wby to have a very long magazine with what amounts to a Rem 700 receiver.

By the way, doing a Krieger cut rifle barrel does not add much to the waiting time. I suspect Wby has a bit more pull with Kreiger than does D'Arcy Echols.


Mike

Mike,..I totaly STOLE my finnbear actions these are the ones that sako manufactured for magnum research with the rem700 contoured action top. You just throw on the rem700 bases (I used Ken Farrel 10moa base) and you are off and running. The blow-out price on these was too good to pass up and I am glad I bought more than one as they are no longer for sale in the dealer catalogs. The picatinni rail with some stout rings makes them quite agreeable,..but I have not ventured up to the large bores you boys are shooting.

You know,..if they would just make 3 big lugs instead of 3 sets of 3 small lugs, that alone would be IMHO an improvement over the current MK V design. That would make good lug lock-up MUCH easier to acheive with far less effort.

I had mine barreled in 338RUM, any feeding issues I might run into? any fixes that you guys know of in case any of the issues present themselves?

thanks for that info, those were things I had not even looked at.

JustC

If you had 3 big lugs the first problem would be the receiver would be weakened.

In addition there will be at least one lug contacting from each row of three....and hence a tripod effect.

Three big lugs would reduce the bearing area under bolt set back.

Keep in mind the Wby has been well tested with the 30/378 being available in the cheap Synthetic Mark V. Not long ago I saw a posting from someone who had bought a 30/378 and asked for loads with 4895....because that was the powder he had on hand from loading his 30/06.

Also, the 9 lug Wby bolt is the most impressive looking bolt in the business and the facts are Wbys are about being eye catching rifles.

With your 338 RUM if you have feeding problems then buy the magazine box and follower for the 378 based calibres. These are in line feed and I think if the feed lips are bent in slightly the 338 RUM will feed fine. In fact the magazine and follower for the 378 based calibres might work fine as they come.

As a side note Wbys only use the magazine to control feeding. In other words the receiver for a 460 is the same when they were making 240 Wbys and 30/06s on the 9 lug action. These days those calibres are on the lengthened 6 lug VarmintMaster action.

Thus conversion of a 300 Wby to 460 Wby is quite simple as compared to similar conversions on other rifles.

To come back to the 3 big lugs for a moment. For accuracy it would make no difference because the Wby would still be limiited by its bedding configuration and also the action is not stiff because you have a big diamter bolt in what is essentially a Rem 700 receiver. Thus the right hand rail of the action is very thin.

The current Wby action fitted with a good barrel and asuming scope, mounts, bedding and ammo is OK will shoot extremely well. If chambered in calibres like 270, 300 Win etc you would need 20 or 30 Nesikas against 20 or 30 Wbys for a difference to show up.

If we equated accuracy potential from an action in terms of Horsepower then the Wby action is 190 Horsepower and the Nesika, BAT etc is 200 Horsepower. Kind of like racing cars. Two laps behind at the end of a 100 lap race means you have been lapped twice but the reality is you are only 2% behind.

Mike

Only about 3 lugs are actually in contact with W'by's. My gunsmith worked long and hard to get it up to 4 then gave up. The rest are good back up.

Sakos: I don't know why all those barrels blew up but Sako did recall stainless guns within a certain serial number range. With the barrels blowing lengthwise in three parts, I'd be willing to consider it a barrel problem rather than something else. The old Sakos were nice. I wouldn't touch a new one.

JustC,

quote:

Remington doesn't make any garantees,..but then again,..they don't have to.

So very right. Because Remington’s “company standard†is anything within 4 inches as quoted by Remington when I complained about a brand new M700 BDL that wouldn’t shoot groups under 4 inches no matter what type of ammo(factory of reloads) used. The rifle was fired by 5 other shooters(three gunsmiths(2 of which are retired Remington trained smiths - retired after working for Remington for 20 years) and 2 range masters) besides myself. The rifle was returned to Remington at their request and their own technicians couldn’t get it to shoot any better. I asked Remington to either fix it refund the money or replace it [G]and they did nothing including return it[/B]. Reason stated was the rifle shot “within company standardsâ€. Only took my attorney and 9 months to get a refund. I too own a number of Remington rifles but they were all made BEFORE the mid 1980’s. All are accurate but all required “tweaking†before they would shoot under MOA. All 11 of my Weatherby Mark V’s shoot under MOA and did so right out of the box. Guarantee’s do matter. Lawdog

Gary,..never had or seen that problem, not to say you didn't have it happen to you. I have found them all to be very easy to get to 3/4" and most all go to 1/2" before I stop trying to shoot match groups with them (something I have to work hard on when loading for factory rifles). I have actions spanning decades, and none have crapped out on me like yours did. However, only 3 of them remain as they came,..the rest have been used for "other" persuits BUT, they were all used prior to rebuilding them and none exibited that trait. I have one right now in 6.5x55 that needs huge barrel pressure to come under 1moa,..but that was discovered with the top of a pack of cigarettes from the range ground, and has been corrected.

I have worked up loads and fired factory "premium" ammo for a handful of MK V's, all in wthby calibers, and they were horrible. We did get one down to a little over 1". Not to say that yours aren't doing very well and mine were all just funky. I completely understand the law of numbers, so I can see how we have different experiences. But keep in mind also, my requirements are 1 colverleaf for 3 shots or it gets sold or rebarreled. My wthby currently at the smith with the rem BDL barrel shot great,..until the extractor crapped out, then the whole parts order, and the wait etc etc. This is the only one I have personally owned, which was originally a 257wthby that was deemed worthy or rebarreling. I bought it with a PacNor select match tube and redding custom dies, in a borden stock, for too little for me to say. it would NOT do right, no matter what I did. I put the barrel on the first sako action I bought, and voila, .6" at 200yds for 5 shots. Now, after the lug lapping, trigger job, new PILLAR bedding, and the rem barrel, the MK V action is under 1" with factory cheap ass remington ammo I don't know what changed,..but I ain't gonna complain about it either

Fish30114,

By changing stocks, did this improve any accuracy. I just bought the Finnlight in .270 WSM and its pretty light and tends to jump just a bit.

JustC,

quote:

I have worked up loads and fired factory "premium" ammo for a handful of MK V's, all in wthby calibers, and they were horrible.

I have a question. If all of these Weatherby rifles you owned shot so badly that they didn't meet the Weatherby guarantee why didn't you return them to Weatherby for fixing
or replacement? As long as the owner hasn’t altered the rifle in any form Weatherby will either fix or replace the rifle. I have seen this only twice but each time Weatherby fixed the one rifle and replaced the other. Other firearm companies could take lessons from Weatherby in honoring their guarantees. Lawdog

I have owned 3 SAKO rifles, all were the older 2 lug action. I have owned 5 Weatherby Mark V rifles.
All 8 of them were very good rifles. My brother has 2 of my SAKO's now.
I never had any problems with any of them.
Now I prefer the Blaser R 93.

because they weren't my guns,..so they weren't my problem I got them to shoot the best I could with a variety of powders and pills,..then the best load is the bsst load I have for it. After that,..

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
because they weren't my guns,..so they weren't my problem I got them to shoot the best I could with a variety of powders and pills,..then the best load is the bsst load I have for it. After that,..

I’m still curious as to why the owners didn’t contact Weatherby and return the rifles for fixing or replacement? It just doesn’t sound reasonable not to take Weatherby up on their accuracy guarantee. Believe me, as much of a backer/collector of Weatherby rifles that I am, if I ever purchase a Weatherby rifle(even a Vanguard which I just picked up from the sporting goods store) that doesn’t meet the accuracy with Weatherby ammo, it will be on it’s way back to Weatherby in a New York second. Lawdog

Althogh I am an avid sako collector, I don't care much for the 75. Actually, if I were looking for a rifle in 340 WBY, I would chose the Accumark. I also am a big fan of the 375 WBY. I have one built on a Mauser action.

sorry for not being as long winded as some
weatherby

most guys are happy at 1" groups when they ride a desk all year long, or shoot 2 weeks a year. For THEM, their guns were great. They will never see a need to get that looked at. Me,..I would sell a 1" gun or rebarrel it etc.