How rare is the prewar model A commercial rifle? I've just come across a 1938 half stock carbine in 8x60S.

/

Serial number 4224
Czech Nitro Proof and 38 (year)
Barrel also marked 1.032 and 8x60
21.5" length with standard front and 2-leaf rear sights. Sling swivel on barrel ring.

Receiver is identical to post war models except that it is a "large" ring. There is no thumb cut. Writing on left wall is forward, as if to allow for a thumb cut. Ring has standard ZB logo on square of fine checkering. Bridge has charger hump. Bottom metal is standard DST with bow guard. Bolt is standard butterknife, but shroud is large ring military 3-position. Safety has large grooves cut into it.

Stock is nicer than post war models with a defined comb nose. Cheekpiece has shadowline. Cap and buttplate are horn, not synthetic. Checkering only on grip. Forend has metal wedge to secure stock to barrel. Tip is a flat schnable.

This one has claw mounts with fine checkering. Front is dovetailed into ring, rear is mounted behind hump. Stripper clips work fine.

I'll post pics when I have a chance.

/

Left wall reads "CESKOSLOVENSKA ZBROJOVKA,A S, BRNO"
There is no writing where the thumb cut would be.
"Rifles of the World" list calibers for model A and B as 7x57, 8x57 and 8x60.
The only disappointment is that the horn grip cap and buttplate have turned brittle with age. However, they look like they can be replaced with any from a post-war model.
I am also in need of some 8x60 ammo, if anyone knows of some.

/

8x60 brass can be formed from 30-06 brass too.

KurtC
I saw one just like you described at a friends house. He gotten is from his relatives in Czechoslovakia. The only difference was that his was a small ring..

It had a clawmount that was fitted in the bridges on top of receiver. This one had a meoopta scope with is from factory.

Sellier bellot makes brass, and I think that you can get either horneber or old RWS brass for it.

I'm not sure how uncommon it's in NA, but I guess you will find a few in East Central Europe.

Pictures please
Cheers
/ JOHAN

Here's another nice 8x60, not a Brno, but the next best thing:

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=4824364

This shows the 21.5" barrel.

Right side showing butterknife handle and serrated military safety.

This clearly shows the large ring and the lack of a thumb cut.

Barrel markings and lug for stock wedge.

Clip slot and finely checkered claw mounts.

/

/

/

Alf, That's as nice a bunch of BRNO's as I've seen. My 375 is a clone of yours even to the scope. That Meopta scope on the #1 is cute.
I have a BRNO #1 that I decided to have a friend restock. One day I'll tell you about it-when my heart settles down. I's been 3 years but the fibrillation starts again when I think about it. (It's a beautiful rifle but WOW did Henry value his work!).

KurtC

After looking at the picture's of you rifle it appears that it is more differences between it and my friends rifle.My friends rifle is much more different particular on the top of the action. It has the same stype of bridges like the m-21/22. This rifle is very nice in condition, was it expencive?

I guess that they must have made some sort of commercial model of the vz-24 with a few refinements. I know that they made some experimental models of the vz-24 action, but never seen one

/ JOHAN

Johan,

My information shows that Brno made two commercial versions of the VZ-24 prior to WWII. The half stock Model A, and the full stock Model B. Calibers were 7x57, 8x57 and 8x60. During and after the war they seemed to have made only small ring commercial rifles, until the ZG-47 came about.

In the US, Brno 98 commercial rifles start around $600 for junkers and end around $2000 for rare or pristine models. This one was right in the middle. I almost passed on it until i realized it was a large ring.

/

Alf, nice rifles.

Serious question, though. How can one shoot properly with such a combination of low comb and relatively high scope mounting?

It goes against everything I know to be conducive to good marksmanship.

Brnos come up great with iron sights, not as well with scopes.

By the way, Champlin Arms had a ZG-47 30-06 for sale the last time I looked about a week ago. Lewis Drake has two, one by Dale Goens and another which is engraved (don't know if it's factory or not).

http://www.drake.net/html/vintage7.html

While it's show & tell time, here's three of mine (carbine length 21.5" barrels):



[ 08-24-2003, 00:50: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

Low combs and high scopes are more comfortable, allowing you to keep your head up, in a more natural position.

Back in the sixties, some gunwriters got carried away with the high comb - low scope theory. That's fine for shooting from the prone or bench, but it is not a natural position when one is standing. I see some folks trying to shoot like that standing and it seems like they either have to bring their shoulder up into their ear or lean their head almost sideways.

Rifles like Alf's allow you to keep your head and shoulder in a more natural position, which also aids in managing recoil. Give one a try, you will never go back.

/

Here's a pic of Brno 1 inch "see through" mounts. They place the scope especially high:



[ 08-24-2003, 18:25: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

Alf,

About your ZG-47 in 9,3x64 Brenneke.
-Did the magazine, receiver rails, feeding ramp, etc, had to be reworked to properly feed the 9,3x64?
-What floorplate, trigger, and triggerguard is your rifle carying?

About the 600's, just today I have been offered a good deal on an old but almost unshot 8x64, the one which carries a peep sight that may be put up or down.
-Would this receiver, I guess it is the 601, accept and feed the 9,3x64 cases?
I have a wildcat that I call 8mm MAZON which is the 9,3 case necked down to 8mm, and I would rechamber the 8x64 barrel into 8mm MAZON, as the rifle's barrel seems to be in perfect condition, shooting Sellier Bellot ammo into 1,5-2,0 inches without a scope on it at 100 meters.

Thank you very much, ALf.

montero

/

KurtC
Thanks for the great pictures.

It seems like soem of the Brno m-21/22 were made during the same time as Zg-47's. I have a Brno m-21 that were made after one of the ZG-47 a friend of mine got. I have seen a few Brno Zg-47's that were made in fullstock version with 24 inch barrel, have any of you seen such rifle?

/ JOHAN

I have a ZG-47 made in 1950 (SN44) and I once had a 21-H made in 1954. I believe Alf also has some very early ZGs made in 1950. Various books claim this model was designed in 1947. A friend has a 21-H made in 1950 with a ZG-47 bolt, numbered to the receiver, a hybrid or transistion gun of sorts.

[ 08-25-2003, 05:20: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

Johan,

ZG-47's are rare in the US. There were lots of 21/22 series imported in every possible configuration, but few ZG-47s (let alone a full stock one). I was surprised I stumpled upon this pre-war model A. I thought it was just another 21 until I got it home and looked at it carefully.

/

ALF, Kurt, I agree that the best posture for shooting standing is with the head fully erect and looking straight ahead. Tilting the head forward SLIGHTLY is not detrimental when shooting offhand, but I agree that tilting the head sideways is a very bad idea because it introduces instability as your inner ear tries to tell your body that it is tilting, when if fact it isn't. I'd rahter cant the rifle than tilt my head to the side. No, canting the rifle will not affect the POI. You just have to use the windage and elevation adjustments a little differently and only if your cant is extreme and you are shooting at more than 300 yards or so.

I can see how the traditional European stock, with some amount of drop, will force a more erect head posture. What I also see is that it doesn't provide adequate cheeck contact. Maybe I'm looking at it too much from the point of view of a target shooter.

Of all the hunting rifles I own or have tried, the Sako 75 has the best stock design. However, I am open to new ideas and may have to find a BRNO or CZ with the appropriate stock to find out.

I already have a CZ 452 with the hog's back stock. Does that approximae the feel of the stocks pictured here?

Alf, very thorough. I'll get my pics and serial numbers to you for your Man Magnum paper ASAP.

Orion,

The hogs back duplicates the position of the Sako, only the appearance is different. It provides the same stock weld for scope use, but the low pad allows you a more comfortable neck position than the "American Classic" straight comb.

The pre-war style stocks on the Brno's and Mannlichers are a little lower. Mainly because the iron sights back then were very close to bore, unlike today's adjustable iron sights.

ALF

I got a list over all the Zg-47's I have seen and a few more. caliber, serial number. etc. all written down.

Let me know if you need any of this data. I have a Brno mod 21 made in 1950 and one made in 1955.

Cheers
/ JOHAN

[ 08-25-2003, 21:01: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

Alf,
Brno also made some rifles in .358 Norma Magnum. I think it was ZG 47.s???

/Mats

/