Just wondering, as I don't have a real dedicated rig in 7mm of any type--(do have an extra 7 mag barrel for one of my 202 Takedowns)
is there a reason that if other things were equal, that a 7mm bullet going similar speed to a 30 cal wouldn't be just as good a hunting round, or is there extra speed needed in the 7 to keep things equal?

It is a matter of physics.

A little "bigger" bullet is a little better, on paper.

In the field a 7mm and a 308, using similar constructed bullets, of similar SD at the same velocity, I do not feel the game could tell the difference.

Woth the 7mm you might have a little less "thump" and make a little smaller hole.

The advantages are you can use a lighter bullet with the same SD with a high BC for a little less recoil, and still have good down range velocity, and energy.

quote:

Woth the 7mm you might have a little less "thump" and make a little smaller hole.

Unless you are using non expanding bullets,the unexpanded bullet diameter means very little.It is the diameter of the bullet as it expands that determines the diameter of the wound channel.The 7mm bullet may in fact expand to a larger diameter than the .308" bullet and leave a larger diameter hole.

Not much difference, but I would prefer the 30 over the 7s on Elk, Moose, Caribou, etc. However, if you have a 7, it will work just fine.

John

I would take 7mm over 30 cal any day, as a matter of fact I do, having owned a 7mm-08, 284 winchester and 7mm Rem Mag.

In my oppinion the better BC and SD's of the 7mm bullets easially make up for the .41" larger size of the 30 cal bullets.

The only advantage 30 cal has over 7mm is when you step up the the 200 grain bullets or heavier, and then you need a very large case to produce any significant advantage.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/seven_092105/index.html

quote:

Posted 28 August 2007 07:41 Hide Post
quote: Unless you are using non expanding bullets, the unexpanded bullet diameter means very little. It is the diameter of the bullet as it expands that determines the diameter of the wound channel. The 7mm bullet may in fact expand to a larger diameter than the .308" bullet and leave a larger diameter hole.

That is the essence of having an expanded bullet in the first place. Bullets expand to various degrees. Some expand very very little like the .308/170gr Privi Grom bullet - from 7.62 mm to 11.0 mm. The .284/160gr Rhino bullet expands to 17 mm. The expanded size of the bullet thus creates a bigger hole and severes more tissue than as if it was a solid or when a bullet expands to a smaller multiple.

Original caliber is just the starting point. Then we need to look at terminal momentum which encapsulates the striking velocity at range and the retained weight of the bullet. Instantaneous loss of bullet weight on impact causes loss of momentum. Then the bullet is ready to do its work .... to expand to max diameter without folding close to its shank when it goes through the vital organs, keep as much of its weight for deeper penetration so as to create the best possible wound channel.

Warrior

In the real world, there's nothing any .30 cal cartridge will do that a comparable 7mm cartridge won't do as well.

While I'll be hunting deer this year with my STW, common guys bigger is better.

That has always been my main two cals. Anyone that feels a .308" kills better than a .284" has their head stuck in the sand.

When you compare a good 160 to a good 180, you'll never be able to tell any difference in game stopping ability. The SD is about the same and the BC is usually alittle better for the .284.

The only advantage the .308" has is for those that feel they must shoot 200-220 grners.

When hunting NA game with carts such as the 300WM with 180s or the 7RM, 7WEA, or 7STW with 160s, you'll never see a difference between the two.

Good Luck

Reloader

Some of you that has not seen the Grom bullet or have not used it on game, here is an example of a retrieved .308/170gr Grom bullet. I shot an Eland behind the shoulder at 145 yds and muzzle velocity clocks at 2,500 fps (no major bone was encountered) and retrieved it on the other side, further back on the ribs, just underneath the skin. At that distance the impact velocity was calculated to be 2,177 fps. Its expanded diameter was 11 millimeters or 1.4 times - not bad as it held together, but the mushroom is too small for my liking.



A Barnes-X bullet will typically yield a 2.0x expansion of original diameter, which is generally acctepted as most ideal yielding a very good compromise between the size of the hole and depth of expansion.

Warrior

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tumbo:

In my oppinion the better BC and SD's of the 7mm bullets easially make up for the .41" larger size of the 30 cal bullets.QUOTE]

You might want to edit the .41" roger

quote:

Originally posted by Juggernaut76:
In the real world, there's nothing any .30 cal cartridge will do that a comparable 7mm cartridge won't do as well.

Then to follow the above logic;

In the real world, there's nothing any 7mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 6.5mm cartridge won't do as well...... which would mean that,

In the real world, there's nothing any 6.5mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 6mm cartridge won't do as well...... which would mean that,

In the real world, there's nothing any 6mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 22 cal cartridge won't do as well.........

quote:

is there a reason that if other things were equal, that a 7mm bullet going similar speed to a 30 cal wouldn't be just as good a hunting round, or is there extra speed needed in the 7 to keep things equal?

No. There is NO REASON! As a matter of fact, in my hunting experiences over the past 50 years or so, I have noted no USEFUL, PRACTICAL difference in the hunting performance of 7mm rounds vs .30 cal. rounds firing bullets of comparable sectional density, construction, and muzzle velocity.

For example, you can fire a 140-grain Nosler Partition bullet from a 7mm Rem. Mag. at a little over 3300 FPS, and a 165-grain NP from a .300 Win. Mag. at about the same speed.

If these two bullets each strike elk bulls in the same spot, unless the bullet is recovered, no-one could tell you which bullet hit which bull based on the amount of damage inflicted on them.

There is a THEORETICAL advantage to the larger-diameter bullet. But this advantage is ONLY THEORETICAL. The only instance in which such a thicker bullet is of value is in the case of solids being used on heavy dangerous game-the smaller (.264"-.284") bullets are more easily bent, which causes them to dive off track and miss things like elephant's brains.

How much difference can we expect 0.024" difference in initial diameter to make? They both expand......

With bullets of sim. SD, I doubt ther is much diff. You could make an argument for 200gr bullets @ mag. vel. for larger game like elk, moose & bear, but thre are no flys on the 7mm. I have never been a 30cal fan so I shoot 7mm & 338 & just skipped over the 30cals. (I do love my M1s though, 308 & 06).

quote:

Originally posted by free_miner:

quote:

Originally posted by Juggernaut76:
In the real world, there's nothing any .30 cal cartridge will do that a comparable 7mm cartridge won't do as well.

Then to follow the above logic;

In the real world, there's nothing any 7mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 6.5mm cartridge won't do as well...... which would mean that,

In the real world, there's nothing any 6.5mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 6mm cartridge won't do as well...... which would mean that,

In the real world, there's nothing any 6mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 22 cal cartridge won't do as well.........

ANY hypothetical premise, (such as yours)carried to a ridiculous extreme, becomes.... ridiculous!!.

quote:

In the real world, there's nothing any 6.5mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 6mm cartridge won't do as well...... which would mean that,

your argument falls apart right here.

anyone here take a 243 over a 6.5 swede?
anyone?
hands?
beuller?
faris bueller?

A little higher sd may mean a little deeper penetration depending on bullet construction for the 7mm.

A little larger frontal area for the 308 gives it slight edge in the Taylors KO factor.

That is just using the exact same bullet weights at the exact same velocities.

We are splittin hairs here, shoot the one you prefer it makes little difference. Or better yet shoot and enjoy both.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
ANY hypothetical premise, (such as yours)carried to a ridiculous extreme, becomes.... ridiculous!!.

of course it is ridiculous. But explain to me how it is any more so ridiculous than the original supposition, that a smaller bore will do anything a larger bore will do.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

your argument falls apart right here.

anyone here take a 243 over a 6.5 swede?
anyone?
hands?
beuller?
faris bueller?

It wasn;t my argument. i was just extrapolating someone elses argument.

I have 2 rifles that I always have taken one of to Africa for Plains game use. One is a custom Prewar Model 70 30-06 that I dearly love and the other is a 7x57 Custom built on a 09 Mauser that I also have deep feelings for. Both have been used very successfully on everything from Duiker to Wildebeest. Which one I take just depends on how I feel when I start to pack. I always have loads for both on hand and actually use only one load with each,175gr Nosler Partitions in the 7x57 and 220gr Nosler Partitions in the 06. I trust both implicitely to 300yds and don't really make any distinctions between the two as to what game I use them on. With the loads I use I have basically the same trajectories out to 300yds with the 7x57 a little flatter but not enough to make a difference. Have no idea what the energy figures are as I rarely pay much attention to them. If the rifle and round are accurate and I can place the bullet (in almost all cases a Nosler Partition) in the correct place I get the animal. It's as simple as that to me.

compare your 7mag to any 30 cal you want, some times it will have an advantage some times not, some times it will tie. compare same bullet weights,or lighter ones it doesn't matter. its proven its-self to many shooters many times.
its the shooters knowledge and ability witch make calibers shine. truth be told their all ausome. shot and enjoy that great 202 you own. regards

It would be just as good.

quote:

Originally posted by free_miner:

quote:

Originally posted by Juggernaut76:
In the real world, there's nothing any .30 cal cartridge will do that a comparable 7mm cartridge won't do as well.

Then to follow the above logic;

In the real world, there's nothing any 7mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 6.5mm cartridge won't do as well...... which would mean that,

In the real world, there's nothing any 6.5mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 6mm cartridge won't do as well...... which would mean that,

In the real world, there's nothing any 6mm cal cartridge will do that a comparable 22 cal cartridge won't do as well.........

That sounds like something my wife would come up with-don't be rediculous. I must, therefore, throw down the gauntlent: pick a .308 cal cartridge that'll out-perform a similar 7mm cartridge (.308 Win vs 7mm-08 Rem, .30-06 vs .280 Rem, .300 Win Mag vs 7mm RM, .300 Wby vs 7mm STW, etc...) in a hunting situation.

unless you are dealing with a Krag, the 30 caliber rounds are pedestrian. it is a fashion choice, really. 7 mag is a non starter and you have to shoot a 280 or 284 to even begin to command any respect.

The advantage in the 7mm will be its better BC for comparable bullet weights which means you can shoot a lighter bullet, lighter load for a given case capacity and have it perform better in flight than a comparable bullet weight in a bigger bore.

A 140gr bullet in 7mm will fly like a 165 in 308 and a 165 in 7mm will fly like a 180 in 308. This has benefits when choosing a rifle for a young shooter, woman or a person who is recoil shy. Otherwise, there ain't enough difference to sneeze over. Kudude

I find it hard to believe guys are basically saying a 7 mm mag kills as good as a 300 mag. I'm back to an STW this year but have shot 7x57s 280s 7rem mags and STWs. I've also shot a lot of game with 300 mags. While I don't really use 300s anymore to say they don't kill any better than a 7 mag is just plain silly. Obviously on small bodied Deer its going to be hard to tell. Shoot a bigger animal and tell me there's no difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Juggernaut76:
That sounds like something my wife would come up with-don't be rediculous. I must, therefore, throw down the gauntlent: pick a .308 cal cartridge that'll out-perform a similar 7mm cartridge (.308 Win vs 7mm-08 Rem, .30-06 vs .280 Rem, .300 Win Mag vs 7mm RM, .300 Wby vs 7mm STW, etc...) in a hunting situation.

So you are saying that, in a hunting situation, when comparing big-game cartridges/bullets, that bigger is not better?

What ever I personally have shot with a 7 MM Rem Mag has gone down . Ditto with a .308 or 06 .

How ever a large Moose or Brown Bear , Water or Cape Buffalo ,Lion , Leopard I would venture to say is a BIG NO NO with any of the above !.

A .338 Mag would be the Least too say a 700 Nitro Express I should think would do just fine .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

The bullet is more important than the caliber and that does not mean the caliber or cartridge is not important, as it provides the capability of bore size, the bullet mass that can be pushed at a certain velocity providing "terminal momentum" at range where the target/quarry is.

Most people have been overlooking the real contribution from the bullet itself -ie the type of bullet (frangible soft, bonded soft, partition, patititioned & bonded, solid shank with bonded front core, Barnes-X type bullets or expanding monolithics). Let us make it simple ... bullets kill !!!

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by free_miner:

quote:

Originally posted by Juggernaut76:
That sounds like something my wife would come up with-don't be rediculous. I must, therefore, throw down the gauntlent: pick a .308 cal cartridge that'll out-perform a similar 7mm cartridge (.308 Win vs 7mm-08 Rem, .30-06 vs .280 Rem, .300 Win Mag vs 7mm RM, .300 Wby vs 7mm STW, etc...) in a hunting situation.

So you are saying that, in a hunting situation, when comparing big-game cartridges/bullets, that bigger is not better?

Yes! Bigger is not necessarily better-hell, sometimes smaller is better. We're not comparing the virtues of a .243 Win vs a .375 H&H while cape buffalo hunting here. Comparable 7mm and .308 cartridges are so close in SD, BC, bullet weight/style, and level of development that nothing you would sensibly shoot with one would know the difference. Probably the only significant practical difference is in felt recoil. When it's all said and done, pick one, harvest game, fire up the grill, and enjoy.

Personal experience only, I would add that there is no practical difference, on game, between .264 and .284 and .308, given same weight/sectional density/velocity. I just can't see the .044" making that much difference. I use them all, like them all and have seen no difference on game. (Well, ok, I am partial to the .264.)

The 300 WM is much better than the big 7. Mostly because it can take a licking and keep on ticking.Pressures are too high in 7mm and .277 calibers and because of this throats and bullet stability are a now you see it, now you don't thing.I had rifles in both calibers and shot them alot.

quote:

Originally posted by Juggernaut76:
Yes! Bigger is not necessarily better-hell, sometimes smaller is better. We're not comparing the virtues of a .243 Win vs a .375 H&H while cape buffalo hunting here. Comparable 7mm and .308 cartridges are so close in SD, BC, bullet weight/style, and level of development that nothing you would sensibly shoot with one would know the difference. Probably the only significant practical difference is in felt recoil. When it's all said and done, pick one, harvest game, fire up the grill, and enjoy.

fwiw, I agree with you 100%, at least on NA game for which a 7mm (of any flavor) is adequate, since once you are hitting an animal wwith an adequate bullet at adequate velocity, adding to either does not generally produce "better" results.

Now if you were hunting brown bear or buffalo, would you pick up your 7 rem mag or 300 win mag?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by free_miner:
Now if you were hunting brown bear or buffalo, would you pick up your 7 rem mag or 300 win mag?[QUOTE]

Well I would not use either and just stand their and expect the Bb or Buff to fall at my feet after the first shot, nor would I expect or do the the same with cartridges bigger in dia.&momentum.
7mmRm or 300mag, as long as they have an adequate bullet for penetration, my main concern would be placement if I decided to take the shot(s).
I remember Bodington taking a B/B with a 150NP.300weathrby, adequate at the time he said, but certainly not his prefered choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Just wondering, as I don't have a real dedicated rig in 7mm of any type--(do have an extra 7 mag barrel for one of my 202 Takedowns)
is there a reason that if other things were equal, that a 7mm bullet going similar speed to a 30 cal wouldn't be just as good a hunting round, or is there extra speed needed in the 7 to keep things equal?

This is a great question to start an argument.

I like and use the 7mms (7mm Mauser and 7mm Rem Mag)but the 30-06 and the 300 Win Mag are my favorite 30s.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
What ever I personally have shot with a 7 MM Rem Mag has gone down . Ditto with a .308 or 06 .

How ever a large Moose or Brown Bear , Water or Cape Buffalo ,Lion , Leopard I would venture to say is a BIG NO NO with any of the above !.

A .338 Mag would be the Least too say a 700 Nitro Express I should think would do just fine . salute:

Dr. K. I agree with almost all of your quoted statement above.

The only bit of your view I do NOT quite sincerely share in is the part regards moose. I have shot more than a few very large moose, as have hunters I was escorting, and anything from 7x57 up worked very well on them provided bullets were put in the right place. And, if bullets can't be put in the right place on an animal the size of a moose, I would suggest the hunter stick to hunting lost golf balls. (Friendly Grin)

I agree with the majority (so I must be wrong) that any 7mm that produces comparable velocity to a given .30 with proportionally weighted bullets is as good on game.

If you want something substantially more powerful than a hot 7mm can deliver, you don't go with a comparably hot .30, you go further up to a comparably hot .338.

I've shot more game with a 7x57 and 160's loaded to 2750 or so, and it plain kills game even elk-moose-kudu size game. Hell I can't tell a lot of difference between shooting game with it and my .375 so I know a .30 bullet won't help things any. My belief is if a bullet expands and penetrates, the animal is going to die no matter what it's hit with. The mid=velocity calibers like the 7x57, .30-06, .375 are always the ones people talk about killing bigger than their ballistics. Shoot a rifle with good SD and 2500-2800 fps max and game will die.

There is a reason why 30cals are better than 7mm's.

It's because patches are almost always made for 30caliber rifles and they never seem to fit just right in 7mm's! Use the right size jag etc. and still the patches don't fit the 7mm's as well as the 30's.

So unless you're really good with a pair of scissors buy a 30cal! ...............DJ

quote:

Pressures are too high in 7mm and .277 calibers

I dont know where you got that idea, but it isn't true. Have a look here, and click on SAAMI PSI

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/