I'd like to get an accurate (sub-MOA) .308 for up to 300 yard shots on whitetails in N. Dakota. Any recommendations?

I've heard good things about Savage, Remington, Tikka, Sako and I think CZ for out-of-the-box accuracy.

And is it better to get an expensive rifle (Sako) or a less expensive one and have a gunsmith do custom work on it?

Total budget for the rifle not counting scope is about $1,000.

Appreciate any info.

Hunter308

I'm assuming that you'll be firing factory ammo vs handloads? If that's the case, I'd say it's a crapshoot as far as some sort of gurantee if any of those rifles will shoot sub moa with factory fodder.

I have a Ruger M-77 mk II ultralight, and everyone knows Rugers don't shoot but it is capable of sub moa accuracy with a handload that it likes. The chamber of the rifle is generous, and I'm using RCBS dies, which are far from the best. That's a long winded way of saying that if using ho-hum stuff in a .308 leads to such results, odds are you can pick any of those rifles and work up a load to do the same. And that rifle was purchased used.

For $1000, if accuracy was my sole goal, I'd look for a used Rem 700 and have a good gunsmith fit a new ss matchgrade barrel on it, $400 for used gun and $600 for smith work ought to fit the bill. Odds are better said rig will shoot most anything well vs the Sako w/ factory tube. Then again, $400 for used Rem, and you could get set up to reload, shoot a bunch of ammo, and get a scope with the remaining $600. Actually shooting sub moa at 300 yds consistantly isn't totally an equipment issue though

You can put a lot of money in a 700, but it will never be as slick and purdy as a Sako 75

If you have $1000 to work with then damn, you can do a lot. Most people would probably get a Rem 700 or Win 70 and have it worked on.

If all I was concerned about was accuracy I'd get a Savage and rebarrel it myself, then put the rest of the money into upgrading whatever scope I intended to buy.

If simply having a nice gun was my goal, I'd get a Sako. They are guaranteed to shoot 1MOA. I have a Tikka T3, a poor man's Sako, and it will easily shoot 1MOA with many factory loads at 100 yards. Sako and Tikka both use the same barrels, so I would expect a Sako to shoot at least as well. That's plenty accurate for big game...too bad I can't personally make it shoot that well in the field yet.

Price aside, if out of the box accuracy is the primary concern, you won't do much better than Savage irregardless of calibre. Unlike one of the above posters statement, it is unnecessary to rebarrel one. I have several Savages from 22-250 to 338 WM and every one of them was a shooter from the day they were bought. If you don't mind an ugly rifle (which I don't) then look no further.

Another option for sub moa out of the box accuracy is a Steyr-Mannlicher Model L in .308 WCF, They have a habit of going a half inch at one hundred yards.

LLS

Sub MOA

No factory rifle is a guarantee its a sub MOA. I think the absolute best is 1 MOA.

There are several semi custom rifles that will quarantee sub MOA. Jarrett, Georgia Pacific and maybe HS, etc., will guarantee this results. Bottom line you pay for it, price the above list.

Then comes expectations and gambling odds. All of the major manufactures make dogs ( barking) and gems. Issues sometimes are model related, all dogs or good throughout the model line. THe previous is rare in one case at least all good guns, doesn't happen always, rarely in fact. There is a dog in every batch of factory guns, you just got to go through the whole batch to find it. On great models that many of us on this board like a lot, features were right in the model, and there were few dogs. THe devil is in the detail of finding the rifle that is in the good group.

Personally I like CZ 550's, but in the .308 it has a removeable mag. Show stopper for me, not interested. WInchester does a nice short action rifle, bad news its way out of your price range.
Remington, now I show a little interest, Hmm, spotty quality definate highs and lows...how do I quarantee I get better, no quarantee, but I have much better odds through the custom shop......Yeah maybe a mannlicher Modek 7, intersting option.....but Tikka, shoot great, but no I hate plastic on guns and the bolt is cheezy. Well Sako makes great guns...except their new lock system ( sell your guns to lawyers ) and the last little incident with stainless barrels looking like Elmer Fudd and Daffy Duck, with the shotgun blowing up on Elmer. Ruger ?, I'm holding back my instinct to
PUKE move on, list list narrows, Hmm....Savage nah the new switch barrels are intersting and have great flexibility, I have heard they shoot great........Nope they are still ugly, kind of like a face only a mother could love, Oh* I know, Browning, no nevermind A-Bolts suck, their levers are Jap crap anymore, I know Weatherby, nah cancel that thought. Hell who's left?

Go buy something used, its a mixed bag, pretty much across the board on new guns, my choice would be find something I liked. My suggestions for 308's all fine rifle most are right in your price range, all are excellent rifles if your picky:

Belgium Browning. BLR

Sako 579, pre garcia is a little more desirable

Brno ZKK 601

Remington Model 7, old wood stock, be picky look for one of the upgraded models out of the custom shop accept some wear on these or minor fiddling, or one of the new custom shop Models, Alaskan or some such with a stainless, and synthetic stock. Couple of $ more I would be consifering the Titatnium version...hard choice there.

Sako 75 wood stock, blue barrel, pre bolt locking garbage

WInchester Model 70, new production, short action, retail was $2700, CDNN dumped them for around $1200

Winchester Model 70, pre 64. Not my favorite cartridge for this action, but one of these in good condition, stock would interest me.

I'm sure others can contribute to the above list, but its a good start, find one of the above in good or better yet great condition and don't look back.

The only sure things in this world are death and taxes, but a Steyr SBS Prohunter would be my suggestion. I have two (.308 Win and .376 Steyr) and both are easily sub moa with excellent triggers. I have experience with three others that my friends have bought after seeing the way mine shoot. They all can shoot under an inch, with one shooting factory ammo only. One of these with a Leupold VX II would run you just a bit over a $1000

Regards

Elmo

I dont have one, but have been looking at the Kimber Longmaster Classic (not the varmint).

Looks very nice

Why don't you like the mag box's on the cz .308's........just out of curiosity ??

Just bought a model 700 cdl in 7mag. with Zeiss Conquest 3-9. Whole pakage with Burris Signature rings and bases was just under $1000. Haven't quite got it fully tuned in, but early results are looking promising.

I would personally get the Rem 700 I've never loaded for one that wouldn't shoot sub MOA. The triggers are easy to work w/ as well BUT, if you don't know how to mess w/ a 700 trigger have a gunsmith do it. You could get a 700, A very nice Nikon Monarch scope from theopticzone.com, and Leupy bases and rings from toz as well for around 800 bucks. Then youd have money for a quality sling and lots of ammo.

I like Savages for their accuracy but they don't look nearly as good as the Rem 700s IMO.

I would strongly urge you not to get a Ruger although, several folks have them that will shoot. They simply got lucky IMO, I've seen several that were terrible.

You can get alot of different quality rifles and optics for under your budget.

Good Luck!

Reloader

If you want a bolt all the ones mentioned are fine. Lots of good bolt .308s to be had. I personally like the Savage and Ruger bolt.

Something you might consider also is a Browning BAR semi-auto. Every one I have fired gave very good accuracy. They are a little heavy.

Good thing you mentioned "accurate" and .308 in the same sentence.

Now I've only had 6 .308's - Winchester Model 70, Remington Model 7, two Remington Model 700's, a Browning BLR and a Savage 99.

However, based on this small sample, I'd say you'd have to be very unlucky to find an inaccurate .308.

As other's have stated, sub-MOA is awful hard to guarantee, but every one of my .308's was capable of at least 1" groups with selected loads. The 70 and two 700's could beat that with many loads.

In summary - great caliber choice. I'd base the decision more on whichever rifle floats your boat.

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Why don't you like the mag box's on the cz .308's........just out of curiosity ??

As a general rule I don't like box mags on hunting rifles, doesn't matter who makes them. If I had to have a mag I like them flush mount, my Ruger 77/22 is an example of this, I had another 22 that it stuck out the bottom and hated the feature.

This is just my personal opinion, I own a lot of auto pistols, and a couple semi auto rifles. Mags can be problematic. First they need to be made well or jamming is an issue. Not everyone makes good mags. I do like them on auto rifles but most of these have several brands you can buy. My second dislike is I have seen more than one rifle drop its mags in the field, turning your rifle into a complicated single shot. Which leads to the last part of my dislike, when rifles get older and are discontinued, buying replacements gets to be problematic. They can be a bear to find, and when you do they cost a lot. Been there done that, my most expensive mag to date was close to $300, it was an odd ball and rare, worse yet it was collectable. Bad news was it was correct and I needed it.

If I was going to get a rifle with magazines I would buy two extra mags when I purchased the rifle. Once the model gets discontinued very often if you want a new mag ( or even used ) the hunt is on and your wallet usually takes a big hit.

With solid bottom metal all the parts are attached, its all there nothing to loose ( I have teenagers and I can count on my youngest bird braining and dropping one ).

One last issue is all mags are not created equal, some are very well made, and work slick. Then there is the "other" crowd that weren't manufacturered well and you need to fiddle and fight to get them to work correctly, I have played with some firearms and the mags were poorly designed from the get go, and my whole histor of the rifle was fiddling and tweaking mags to get them to function properly. This is even worse if the OEM manufacturer made the only mags for your rifle, and your best option is to go buy another new mag and start fiddling with it.

One last dislike is I like a lot of older guns, I ahave seen a fair amount amount of these on the tables, missing mags, somewhere over the years they were lost, and the rifle is pretty usless without the mags.

Like I said I have a lot of magazines for my pistols and auto's, its gotten so bad I almost need to participate in magazine management. A short list is:
Colt 1911's, 3 cals 38 Super, 10mm, 45
Glocks, 3 types
Browning HP
Ruger 10/22 ( 77/22 )
AR's 3 types
FAL 2 types
AK's 2 types
and I know if I went looking through my safe, I would find a couple more, I know there are some Colt woodsman and High Standard mags in there.

In the end I like my hunting rifles simplified, if half my hunting rifles had magazines the above list woud just get longer, and I am sure I am not the only one that has spent the better part of a year chasing dowwn the correct magazine. The last bad news on hunting rifles is except for Ruger they change all the time, and because not a lot of these rifles were made finding a original replacement stinks sometimes.

If you like them, more power to you, when they are working right they can be conveinent carrying an extra, but in hunting situations I rarely need the extra mag, and solid bottom metal on a bolt action is my preference.

Reloader has it right. Go with the Rem 700 and load for it. My 700 VSSF has held .4 MOA for nearly 2,000 rounds. And it will shoot several different bullets and powders this way. Easiest to upgrade should you want to. Good luck and have fun.

One last though on mags, eventually you invest a lot of dollars in them, I bet if I sold all my mags I could buy another pretty high dollar rifle, my quick guess is I problably have $1000-$1500 tied up in magazines, its kind of a sneaky thing that creeps up on you little by little, one day I woke up and summed it all up in my head and realised, I spend as much or more dollars on mags as I do on reloading goodies.

Edit: I have a Remington 700 in .308 which is very accurate, but unless I was stand hunting or something where I wasn't packing it around, its pretty heavy. Stock from the box it is in your accuracy expectaions, but I would suggest you pick one up before you buy one just to confirm you want that heavy of rifle. And be picky when buying Remingtons, they are not all the same, going through three or four looking for the best rifle can pay off.

Good news is Remingtons are cheap and easy to fix or straighten out, lots of parts, and I think Remington 700's are part of gunsmithing 101 at the schools, finding a smith to work on them is easy.

Tika or Savage if you want a cheap rifle that works.
Remmington if you want a nice rifle you want to fidle with.

I have a Savage, ugly as hell, but shoots very nicly.

the 700 pss or ltr are generaly great out of the box I have gone three in a row sub moa with balistic silver tips 165 gr and 175 lake city match. the new savage trigger is hard to beat and can be adjusted by non mechanical types with ease. and they are cheaper than the speacialty remingtons. but for 300 yards or less I think the 700 light tactical rifle in 308 is it for out of box use on a budget. with the 20 in bbl and an adjused trigger it is real handy and accurate.

Another vote for a used 700. If it won't shoot, a name barrel and a good 'smith will fix that.

I also agree with the folks who recommend Savage, although IMO the plastic Savage stocks are possibly the worst stocks on the market. When I buy a Savage I buy laminate or buy with the knowledge that the stock will be replaced immediately.

I'd also add the Browning with the Boss system. Ugly and not my cup of tea, but every one I've played with has been a sub-MOA rifle.

I do take issue with the folks who claim a high percentage of Rugers won't shoot. Every hobbyist website has its own little prejudice, and I guess for the AccurateReloading forum it's Rugers. I've owned a stack of Rugers and played with a bunch of others, and with one glaring exception, they've all been shooters.

One of the most accurate rifles I own is a Winchester Model 70 Youth Ranger. I won the damned thing in a raffle. Cost me a whole one dollar bill. I took it out and it did not shoot worth a damn. When I took it out of the stock. I foung that their "El Cheapo" hot glue bedding job was all crmbly and falling apart. I har a Ramline stock for a short action Model 70 kaying around that I got as part of a trad e deal, so I put the gun into that stock and worked the trigger down to 2.5 pounds. Groups from that rifle with handloads run from .375" to .75" for the most part. With handloads it doesn't like groups run from 1.0" to 1/5". The difference depends on the bullet used. Scope is a 3x9X Leupold vari-X II.
Paul B.

I have used alot of .308 bolt guns. I find most to be ok accuracy wise but in my mind ok accuracy is not interesting. I like have a LH Tikka in .308 that is very accurate, beyond that it is a Blaser. Interestingly I have a SS model 70 Win in 30 06 that is splendidly accurate, but the .308 I had in the same configuration was a poor shooter at best. I have a buddy that just bought a Remington Spartan .308 single shot, it looks like it is going to be a shooter

Aleko

I have been through at least a dozen different 308's in the last several years. One of the reasons is that the 308 is such an accurate round. Most rifles in 308 will shoot well. My two favorites are Steyr Scouts and Kimbers. One of my Scouts has shot 3/4" 3 shot groups at 300yds, the other has shot several 3/4" 3 shot groups at 300yds - with 165gr Nosler partitions.
My Kimber is a 3/4 Minute or better rifle. A buddy of mine who shot it immediately went and bought a 308 Kimber Montana. I won't print what he claims for it because I haven't seen it myself but suffice it to say it's even better than mine and he's overjoyed with it.
The Steyr Scouts are out of your price range but the SBS's would be and if you found one in 308 it might be a good choice. But I think the best rifle you could get your hands on in your price range is the Kimber. They are nicer made than most others, often have very nice wood (or an excellent synthetic stock), are usually very accurate. Anyone I've heard of that's had a Kimber that wouldn't shoot 3 shots into less than an inch has sent them back to the factory and received great service. If they don't shoot Kimber will try and fix them. The current American Rifleman has an article about one in Africa, you might check it out.
A Sako Finnlite in 308 would be a great option, but I don't think you'll find one under $1000. My 270 Finnlite is scary accurate for any hunting rifle, much less a light one. I find the std model 75's a little heavy for a 308 - but about right in 338 win mag, 300 Ultra etc.
It's hard to go too far wrong with a 308 but I think if you'll check them all out the Kimbers will stand out as the nicest overall and your best option for a hunting rifle.........DJ

For $1,000 you can buy a Remington 700 Titanium and call it good.

I've got a question for all you 700 folks.

What are the best groups sizes and typical group sizes that you all have shot out of factory sporter weight barrels with factory ammo with nothing but trigger jobs on the guns?

I have nothing against the 700, but every gun mag I've read with tests have shown groups no better than 1MOA, but sub MOA groups with handloads.

If a 700 needs handloads to shoot sub-MOA and a T3 or 110 can do sub MOA with factory ammo, then why is a 700 a better place to start?
Is it simply the ease of finding smiths to work on them?

I would go with a Blaser R 93. I have 2 308 bbls for my Blaser, the standard sporter, and the 19 3/4" Tracker. Both shoot very well.
The tracker bbl has taken javilinas at 328 yards and at 412 yards.

Another vote for the 700 LTR. Mine is accurate with no tweaking. I mounted a Super Sniper 16X on it and use it in F class competiton out to 900 yards. It outshot several custom rifles its first time on the line. First place that day was won by a box stock 700P. If you want dependable no frills accuracy in a .308, neither of these is ever a mistake.

How much does one of those Rem 700 LTR's weigh? I believe it has a heavy barrel - is it suitable for hunting uses?

I went to Remington's site last night and couldn't find the LTR anywhere on it.

Thx for any info,

Hunter308

Hunter308,
Check out: http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700pltr.htm
7.5 lbs
I have one, just have not shot it yet.
Sako

I shot a guys CZ at the range several months ago. He told me to aim at the hole he just made so I did. First shot I ever shot from this rifle and at 100 yards I put my shot in the same hole! This rifle was right out of the box no alterations just a scope and a load he worked up for it. The adjustable trigger is great! It sold me.