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For those who have challenges with load development, you should seriously consider the Optimal Charge Weight method. Details are here. http://optimalchargeweight.emb...d-recipes/4533485759 Summary is for most medium capacity case you load ever increasing charges in .4 grain increments if large capacities say 65+ grains I would go in .6 and shoot them in round robin fashion each on a different aiming point to locate the accuracy node. In this example while Load 1 43.6 grains looks great, you can see that just .4 of a grain increase and its related velocity/pressure inrease causes groups to open up by an inch. That change in velocity/pressure could be driven by various issues on a different days - for example a slightly mis-dispensed load, increase temperature or slightly increased seating depth or a combination of any of the preceding etc. Where as Load 7 & 8, (46.0 & 46.4) have near identical group size and near identical POI relative to POA. So the optimal load is to split the difference and load 46.2 grains which gives the greatest assurance of a sub-moa group given variances that can occur. I find this better than the Audette ladder because the Audette ladder really needs a 200 yard distance which induces more shooter error and even 3/4 MOA is 1.5 inches which means if you get two shots that happen to be at "opposite ends of their theoretical 3 shot group" they can appear to be forming a cluster. Yes, that is a 90 year old milsurp rifle that has been glass bedded and scoped shooting sub moa groups with handloads from its original military barrel that has been cut and re-crowned..  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Thank you kindly for taking the time to write this down. It has been 95-100 every weekend. | |||
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I am familiar with the OCW, but have never used it myself for load development. Not trying to argue with your comments, but two things about the ladder method. 1) I would say the ladder method needs a MINIMUM of 200 meters, but more is better. If you can do a ladder at longer distances you will get better data about the load. But if you are not a good shooter, you will also get more non-load specific variables at longer range too, eg wind, shooting form, etc that make it harder to interpret the load. 2) The ladder method is very good at helping you find a wide "node" in the load. If you are only shooting out to say 100 yards, then nodes are pretty irrelevant because you are going to get acceptable accuracy even if your load is off a little. But if you are shooting at greater distances, you are much better off with a load that will give you an accuracy window of say .5gn vs .2 gn. The wider the node, the longer you are going to stay in tune through changes in atmospherics. Temperature stability of the powder will also help here, but the more you have on your side, the better in my opinion. | |||
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Well not sure of your math but the target above illustrates a window of .4 not a .2 window. If you are worried about .4 window vs..5 window then (in this case) you can go back and shoot 45.9 & 46.5 and see if you have a .6 window which I highly suspect you would. Alternatively, based on this target if you find ~1.25 inch is acceptable accuracy, just use 46.0 and now you have a .8 inch window because 45.6 and 46.4 have a similar POI. The OCW allows you to make various decisions because you have more data. You can evaluate group size, change in group size, POI vs POA, direction of POI changes. The preceding can't be done with Audette as you have a single round per charge weight and how do you know whether that 1 particular shot of that load was 8 o'clock or 2 o'clock of what would have been a theoretical 3 shot group. The other problem with Audette (as you alluded to is wind). Let's say you zeroed your rifle at 100 with some sighting ammo on a calm day (less than 2mph). Now you go to do load development and as you say if 200 is a minimum you go to 250, and their is only a minor wind ranging between 3 mph to 5 mph which that change is barely noticeable. The difference between 3mph and 5 mph of wind at 250 yards is almost is .9 inches for a typical cartridge. If your rifle has 3/4 inch potential it is theoretically a 2 1/4 inch gun at 250 but 2 mph wind change is 40% the size of your potential group. Audette just has more problems even for a good shooter IMHO. Its only advantage is shooting fewer bullets. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike You also posted this OCW info some time ago and as I was one of those "challenged by load development" I studied it with great interest. To my simple mind it seemed quite a logical approach so I embraced the procedure for my own load development. It worked really well and shortened load development time by giving good indications of which load combinations showed greater potential. Over time I adapted the system slightly to my preference, including all test shooting at 200 yds, and also found the system is not infallible but still such a sound method for load development I have happily continued to use. Hunting.... it's not everything, it's the only thing. | |||
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Old age is hell...I don't remember posting it...  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, I was not referring to your target specifically, just chiming in with my thoughts on the what I think is important in tuning a load. Neither OSW or a ladder test is"one and done" either. I would not use OCW or a ladder in isolation, they just help you find a load to explore more in my opinion. Just like verifying drop data on a solver with actual fire, it takes a couple of steps. | |||
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Another problem with Audette ladder I find is: Look at the upper right and middle shots in the 44.0, 44.4, & 44,8 when super imposed on each other they would all form a nice cluster in Audette ladder. That's 6 of 9 or a 66% chance of thinking 44.4 is a good load which is a ~1.5 inch group when the rifle has sub moa potential. Of course you can shoot multiple ladders but now your almost expending the same effort. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Interesting. I shoot at a range where wind is almost always a factor. My worst day was just at 8 MOA into the howling wind at 550 yds! Anyway I prefer to look at vertical dispersion and pretty much ignore horizontal drift except on those rare days it's actually calm. To me it seems that 46.0 grains has the least vertical difference and would concentrate my efforts in that area. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Classic OCW target - for those who have challenges with Load Devlopment
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