I was looking in my Speer reloading manual and noticed that the tables show the 8x57 with more velocity with less powder in the lighter bullet weights than the 8mm-06. Not until you step up to the 200 grain bullet did the extra powder show an advantage. I understand short cartridge more efficient and all but a 30-06 still has more velocity that a .308. This should basically be the same story. Are the books just being conservative as usual?

Seems to me that most 8mm-06 loads are developed using the same OAL as the 8x57. Thus, case capcity is damn near the same.

IMHO, there is no need for the 8mm-06 when it can be duplicated by the 8x57.

My Hornady manual shows (basically) the same thing.

One of the reasons I like the Hodgdon website is they show the pressures they got......and I suspect here that Speer and Hornady are loading both the 8 X 57 and the 8mm-06 to the same SAAMI specs....(pressure)

I'd bet that if both were loaded to it's potential, you'd see gains in the 8mm-06 across the board.....not a lot...but some.

To Z1R's comment.....my Hornady book shows the COAL of the .8mm-06 actually a about .025 less than the COAL of the 8 X 57!!!!!

I think the reloading manuals are being conservative and it might be related to the origin of the 8mm-06. Many 8mm-06 rifles are reamed out 8x57 war rifles.

If you want to see more of the potential of the 8mm-06 in a modern bolt-action, you can take a look at the data for the 30-06 and 338-06. The data for the 180 grain and 200 grain bullets is less conservative for those two rounds in the manuals that I have.

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
I think the reloading manuals are being conservative and it might be related to the origin of the 8mm-06. Many 8mm-06 rifles are reamed out 8x57 war rifles.

Yup!

If you load the two cartridges to the same pressure level, expect 100-200 fps more out of the 8mm-06. How do I know?? Because the 8mm-06 is a dead ringer for the 8x64S, and that is about the velocity you gain when going from an 8x57S to the 8x64S.

- mike

Old War rifles? The '98 action is the strongest action period. American manufacturers always low ball 8x57. Original surplus ammo velocities are as follows. German 8x57, 147gr bullet: 2900fps. U.S. M2 ball 150gr bullet: 2700fps. Hmmm
I shoot 175 and 180gr out of an 8x57 at 2700fps and still have 1gr more powder I can add to max, but would sacrafice accuracy, no need. 160gr hit 2800fps. Works for me. Both loads are very respectable.

The German military Mausers "liberated", brought to the US and subsequently reamed to 8mm-06 were of all years of manufature (including late time war production).

Besides, in the US there always seems to have been an issue with .318 vs .323 cal bores. Most US 8mm Mauser ammo is fairly anemic - perhaps for that very reason?

- mike

O.K. this is what I thought. I figured the books were being conservative. I doubt I will re chamber to 8mm-06 anyhow but wanted to think about it.
I just started working with the rifle and have many other things I need to do before I would have it re chambered anyhow.
The rifle was bought to use as a donor for the action. However the rifling was so sharp I decided to give it a try. My hand loads right now were for fire forming brass from 30-06 cases. I know you can buy 8x57 but I didn't feel like going shopping. With a starting load of IMR 4064 and Hornaday 170 grain round nose bullets I got an 8 shot average of 2460 fps and a one inch ragged hole at 50 yards. I am now spending some time to really clean the barrel. Hope I don't clean all the bulls eyes out of it.

the 8/06 was popular back in the days shortly after ww2 because of the abundance of 06 ammo and the scarcity of decent 8x57. bunches of mausers were around so to get ammo easy you just reamed it out & used 06 brass with 8mm bullets. yes you could shorted the 06 to 57, but it was easier to pay $3-5 for somebody to run a reamer in

Does one need 8mm-06 dies or can you just neck size with 8mm dies?

Jpat, my comments weren't disparaging of war rifles or the '98 action. Your point about American manufacturers being cautious about the 8x57 was exactly my point. The reloading manufucturers seem to be cautious about the .318/.323 bore and also about the unknown origin and quality of the rifle.

When used in a high quality action, the 8x57 and the 8mm-06 will give similar velocities, but the 8mm-06 does have a slight case size advantage and will give a little more velocity.

Donald, yes, you do need 8mm-06 dies. New dies are available from RCBS or you can often get used ones from Ebay.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:
O.K. this is what I thought. I figured the books were being conservative. I doubt I will re chamber to 8mm-06 anyhow but wanted to think about it. . . .

Should you change your mind and decide to rechamber, you might want to consider going to 8mm-06 Imp. After all, they're both hand loading propositions, and the Imp version would give you just a little more case volume.

Just a before-coffee thought.

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
Jpat, my comments weren't disparaging of war rifles or the '98 action. Your point about American manufacturers being cautious about the 8x57 was exactly my point. The reloading manufucturers seem to be cautious about the .318/.323 bore and also about the unknown origin and quality of the rifle.


When used in a high quality action, the 8x57 and the 8mm-06 will give similar velocities, but the 8mm-06 does have a slight case size advantage and will give a little more velocity.

Donald, yes, you do need 8mm-06 dies. New dies are available from RCBS or you can often get used ones from Ebay.

If in doubt, slug the bore! Simple to do.
I would not call American manufacturers cautious, Clueless is a word that comes to mind.

The 1888 Mauser commission was .318. The 1898 is .323. 1893, '94, and '95 were produced in 7x57.
The Turks re-barreled many to 8x57(.323)
The Turks also produced the '98 action at Ankara, a very well made rifle in 8x57.
I'm not sure why the U.S. manufacturers could not figure this out.
The '98 action was used to fire the 8x63 Swede round, The most powerful infantry cartridge ever made. I can see why they are so confused.
http://www.8x63swedish.pridham...idge_comparisons.jpg

quote:

The 1888 Mauser commission was .318.

The Germans rebarreld the Commission rifles to .323 in the 1920's. Both of mine have a .323 bore.

The top energy level of the 8mm-06 is just about 1/2way between the 30-06 and .338-06. Simple as that. You can back into the velocity of any bullet, all things being equal. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

The 1888 Mauser commission was .318.

The Germans rebarreld the Commission rifles to .323 in the 1920's. Both of mine have a .323 bore.

That is why the "was" for the '88 and "is" for the '98. The Germans started rebarreled in 1905. The 88-05, the last model was the 88-14. The Turks rebarreled all the way into the 1930's.

That is very interesting. I know that many mousers were not built to the same specifications that the german K98 was and this may have something to do with the conservatism. The difference between the two cases is marginal and falls under the same spell as an AI case. It will take more powder to achieve the exact same results but the added capacity allows for more yet. Unless they experiment in this added range you will not discover the benefit. It can be very time consuming and expensive to find that connection but believe me, us, it is there. These reloading manuals data is recycled edition after edition in many cases so you need to cross reference against all of them. I am guilty of buying all of them. I have given away many of my older ones but the data was Identical to the new editions. I should stop buying them but It's a sickness. ;-)

If I was to make a 8mm.06 or an 8mm.06 imp, I'd make sure it was build on a strong action, get a copy of quick load, and work up my loads according to the strength of the action, not the arbitrary low published pressures. All you have to do is look at the 338.06 to know that you could come up with some smoking loads.

quote:

If you load the two cartridges to the same pressure level, expect 100-200 fps more out of the 8mm-06. How do I know?? Because the 8mm-06 is a dead ringer for the 8x64S, and that is about the velocity you gain when going from an 8x57S to the 8x64S.

100% right! Why? Because in Europe there exists the 8x60S which is the 8x57 with a 2mm longer body and a 1mm longer neck.

Essentially a "Versailles Treaty" version of the 8x57 to allow German sporting rifles to be retained when Germany was limited to the amount of "war rifles" it could possess, collectively, as a country after World War 1.

And all that was done was, just as with the 8mm-06 conversion, a reamer was simply run up the barrel to lengthen the chamber on standard 8x57 sporting rifles.

If you check the loading tables from such as Vectan you will see that the 8x60S is loaded to about 5% higher velocity and has a higher allowable pressure than does 8x57.

Personally, unless you are going to 100% hadload OR going where military calibres are prohibited, I am not sure as to whetther the extra effort and re-chambering cost with 8mm-06 justifies the gain in performance.

For with it comes also the need to seat long bullets back further (to some extent) which nullifies any gain from the longerv case!

If you can live with its very limited availability outside Europe (although Privi Partisan make the cases) 8x60S is probably the better improvement on 8x57 rather than 8mm-06.

But the German military World War 1 loading for 8x57 was a 154 grain bullet at 2,900fps and there isn't much wrong with that performance in 2010!

The big handicap that I think you have with 8x57 in the USA is that your American powders seem designed around a "ought six" length case whereas the better double base Vectan powders are better suited to the shorter 8x57 case.

Certainly I'd investigate the performance with Vectan SP7 in 8x57 and 8x60S and there's nothing any animal on the lanet will notice the difference between them and 8mm-06!

But if it were a factory cartridge 8mm-06 would have a lot, even so, to recommend it. In 8mm-06 fact it is probably almost a BETTER compromise all around North Ameerican cartridge than either 30-06 or 338 A-Square.

As it shoots both 154 grain and 227 grain bullets as well as each of them but is better with the 227 grain than the 30-06 and better with the 154 grain than the 338 A-Square.

Enfield,

How are you getting on with your 8x60S?

I really like mine - 2,600fps with 200gr partitions and H380

I have a few of both, I keep going back to the original 8x57 chambering as the improved version only gobbles more powder without the expected velocity gain.

quote:

Enfield,

How are you getting on with your 8x60S?

I'm still not sure as to what to use with it. I've loaded four bullet weights 150, 175, 196 FMJ and Hornady 195.

I like the Hornady 195 except that the crimp groove is in the wring place. So may look at Speer's 200 grain offering.

I'd like to maybe try some of the GROM bullets that Henry Krank import. They are 185 grain and a sort of European version of the Barnes type but with a lead plug rather than a cavity.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
The top energy level of the 8mm-06 is just about 1/2way between the 30-06 and .338-06. Simple as that. You can back into the velocity of any bullet, all things being equal. roger

As is the 8X57 IS when loaded to the same pressure level.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
get a copy of quick load, and work up my loads according to the strength of the action, not the arbitrary low published pressures.

That is what I did.

Here are some results from a few loads I just threw together.





These results were from a 23 3/8" K98K take off barrel.

COAL was 3.132"

quote:

Originally posted by 303carbine:
I have a few of both, I keep going back to the original 8x57 chambering as the improved version only gobbles more powder without the expected velocity gain.

Absolutely correct.

My "Quickload" data shows only a 125 fps advantage W/the 8mm-06 A.I. when loaded to the same pressure (60,000 psi) @ a COAL of 3.132" for the 8X57IS & 3.340" for the 8mm-06 A.I.

I had an 8mm-06 A.I. & I was getting 2960 FPS form the 180gr Nosler BTs & 2850 fps from the 200gr Nosler Partitions.

The really great thing about the 8X57 is that it will fit into an "Intermediate length" 98 action.

That can shave as much as 1/2# when everything else, scope, stock, etc is scaled down to the 1/4" shorter action length.

The 1888 Commission rilfe is not a Mauser.

Larry Gibson