Paper argument, and I believe it is not true at all. My experience disputes everything you say here Larry, even with the light bullets.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
What am I missing here? ...

You are not missing anything concerning the 30-06 works better with 180gr and up Bullets than the 308Win. That will always be the situation due to the Volume availabe with a heavy Bullet "Seated" and the Slower Powder Burning Rate being better suited for them in the 30-06. The Physics of the situation is the Slower Powder will provide a longer, sustained duration Burn, reaching and maintaining a "high(within reason) pressure", which means more Energy is applied to the Bullet for a longer period of time - resulting in Higher Velocity, or dv/dt.

On lighter weight Bullets, you can have a Fast Barrel 308Win and a Slow Barrel 30-06 and the 308Win will actually have a higher Velocity than the 30-06. That used to be quite common. Normally speaking however, they are about equal with 150gr and lighter Bullets. Find a Fast Barrel 30-06 and a Slow Barrel 308Win and the difference can be 400fps, even with the Light Bullets.

What is confusing you are the posts by some rookies.

Why does all this have to be "complicated"?

All else being equal, the larger the case capacity the more energy (powder) you can put behind the bullet; and thus, the more energy (and velocity) the bullet will have when it leaves the muzzle.

The '06 has significantly more case capacity than the 308; and thus, it will always out perform the 308 - that is, all else being equal.

It also follows that the 300 WM will outperform the '06, and the 300 RUM will outperform the 300 WM, etc.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Why does all this have to be "complicated"?

All else being equal, the larger the case capacity the more energy (powder) you can put behind the bullet; and thus, the more energy (and velocity) the bullet will have when it leaves the muzzle.

The '06 has significantly more case capacity than the 308; and thus, it will always out perform the 308 - that is, all else being equal.

It also follows that the 300 WM will outperform the '06, and the 300 RUM will outperform the 300 WM, etc.

Regards, AIU

That's been my experience too.

308 user are always claiming 30-06 velocities, just like one of my brothers, always get's over 20mpg no matter what pickup he buys! lol

DM

I like to use a consistent professional source when comparing two cartridges.

For velocity comparisons and pressures I use this:

Hodgdon Reloading Center

Using Hodgdon's data and finding the max velocities with the following bullets.

308 Win

150 gr = 2937 FPS
165 Gr = 2767 FPS
180 gr = 2683 FPS
200 gr = 2514 FPS

30-06

150 gr = 3068 FPS
165 gr = 2938 FPS
180 gr = 2798 FPS
200 gr = 2586 FPS

The loads listed are all below SAAMI MAX. The 308 WIN has a higher SAMMI MAX. If both cartridges are loaded above SAMMI MAX, the differentials would still remain about the same.

If different powders are used in both, like the Reloader series, the numbers may change, or may not.

Individual rifles may show different differentials. It is possible to own a fast 308 and slow 30-06, and visa versa.

Bob

Shadow:

While it's nice to use a "certain" set of specs., it is only one source. I believe most of this discussion, is always based on this "published" data or another. I am certain, most who argue this beat to death comparison, do use some "data" or another, and do not really have the praticle experience of loading the 2 cartridges, and shooting groups and running them over the screens. Long ago, I abandoned the practice of using other data as "gospel", until I had the opportunity to check it with my own rifles and equipment, hence my position that the 30-06 is as superior to the 308, as the 300 Mag is to the 30-06.
Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Shadow:

While it's nice to use a "certain" set of specs., it is only one source. I believe most of this discussion, is always based on this "published" data or another. I am certain, most who argue this beat to death comparison, do use some "data" or another, and do not really have the praticle experience of loading the 2 cartridges, and shooting groups and running them over the screens. Long ago, I abandoned the practice of using other data as "gospel", until I had the opportunity to check it with my own rifles and equipment, hence my position that the 30-06 is as superior to the 308, as the 300 Mag is to the 30-06.
Jerry

Jerry,

I agree in part, with your statement. The 30-06 is superior velocity wise, compared to the 308, just as the 300 Win mag is superior velocity wise to the 30-06.

The data I posted does not refute this. Nor do I consider the Hodgdon Data as "gospel". I always test the data myself in my rifles.

But if my rifles deliver more or less velocity, than Hodgdon's list, is Hodgdon data wrong? Or is my rifle just different, due to a different chamber, barrel, COAL and powder lot?

Hodgdon's data is a good baseline for "comparison only", because of all the reloading data published they are the only one's to regularly provide pressure. And without pressure data one is only guessing between a 60k psi load and a load that might be 10% higher.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Paper argument, and I believe it is not true at all. My experience disputes everything you say here Larry, even with the light bullets.

Jerry

Jerry

In your "experience" you have actually loaed and measured both cartridges to equal psi's measuring the psi and the velocities? Considering that I have one could argue that my results ("experience") is based on actual measurements of such and not a "paper arguement".

None the less, the facts are the facts and the '06 will always out perform, by a considerable margin, the .308W given equal pressures in equal barrels. If the same powders are used ineach the margin will be less but if each is loaded to maximize it's case capacity the '06's margin of better performance will be greater. It's the same if you compare an '06 to a .300 H&H, a /300 H&H to a .300 Win Mag, etc.; given the same psi and the same barrel length the larger capacity case will give higher velocities.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
It's the same if you compare an '06 to a .300 H&H, a /300 H&H to a .300 Win Mag, etc.
Larry Gibson

Yes, but when you close the bolt on the 300H&H it sounds like, "Ahhhh...".

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
But the difference between the 2 really tips in favor of the 30-06 with 180 grain bullets or heavier. With a 180/ and 4350 in the 30-06, once can obtain 2850-2900 fps, and still be within safe pressure limits. I believe with the 308, because the case capacity is diminished by the longer bullet, 2500fps or so is what you can expect. Still no slouch at 300yds or less, but now you are at a negative of 300 fps. Significant, I'd say.

Jerry

Nonsense.

Again, in my fairly extensive experience with both rounds, in equal barrel lengths, the difference averages 150 fps.

Anyone loading a 22" bbl'd 30-06 with a 180 and 4350 at 2,850 to 2,900 fps needs their head examined.

All the 22" 308's I've loaded 180's in handle them at 2,630 to 2,660 no problem (RL15).

Lets stick them in 24" barrels, and give the larger 06 case time to burn the slow powder it can hold. Adios 308. As to head examining, I have severe doubts an 06 can be blown apart with a slower powder, say 4350 and a 180 bullet, in any combination that fits the case and bullet. I don't know why you are stuck on the 22" barrel, maybe that's the only way you feel you have the point of argument?????

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Lets stick them in 24" barrels, and give the larger 06 case time to burn the slow powder it can hold. Adios 308. As to head examining, I have severe doubts an 06 can be blown apart with a slower powder, say 4350 and a 180 bullet, in any combination that fits the case and bullet. I don't know why you are stuck on the 22" barrel, maybe that's the only way you feel you have the point of argument?????

Jerry

The same 150-ish difference will be found in 24" barrels. BTDT too.

You have no experience and are basically talking out of your azz... that's pretty clear.

You're last comment says it all about you, now dosen't it! No further comment from me. Oh by the way, you need to increrase the lenght of your mental barrel, as well.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
You're last comment says it all about you, now dosen't it! No further comment from me. Oh by the way, you need to increrase the lenght of your mental barrel, as well.

Jerry

In other words, you have NO experience with both... pretty easy to spot a fraud with only conjecture based on toilet-side reading.

You can have the last word. It's ok.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
You can have the last word. It's ok.

Jerry

In other words you have no experience with both, just conjecture based on toilet-side-reading.

You can fool the fans but not the players...

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
It's the same if you compare an '06 to a .300 H&H, a /300 H&H to a .300 Win Mag, etc.
Larry Gibson

Yes, but when you close the bolt on the 300H&H it sounds like, "Ahhhh...".

That's because it took so long to close the bolt, you're relieved when it's finally done. :O

Brad: Since I think you are full of BS, here is what I have been getting with one of my 30-06'S : 57Grains IMR4350/180 Nosler Partition/2873Fps. Room for more I believe, and a hell of a load on elk.

The Toilet Seat Sitter, FO

Jerry