Deer season is upon us soon, and each year I go to the range to see some dad getting irritated at his 12 yr old son, because he is trying to get him use to shooting the rifle given to him by grandpa. The recoil is beating the crap out of the kid, who probably never shot anything bigger than a 22 before.

Each year, I make an offer to some of these dads, that if they buy the componets I will assemble some down loaded ammo for their son, that will reduce recoil about 40 to 50 % yet still be able to take a deer at 200 yds, if the kid's aim can be on hide in the heart and lung areas.

I am also going to post this on the " favorite loads section.

But if you have a good load that is downloaded and you would like to share, I am interesting in cataloging it.

This goes a long way on teaching new shooters to enjoy hunting without getting beat up, and having dad get mad at them (and mom getting mad at dad.).

Appreciate everyone's help on this post.

I belive Saeed's kid load is 186gr of VVN550 under 750gr bullet in his .577Tyranno

What about auxiary cartridges, something like .30carbine/.308winchester etc, my friends use 7.65browning in 7.62x54R Mosins . . .

Jiri

well... first you find a bench next to the kid... then every time he is sighting down his rifle ready to fire, rip off a round from a braked 378wby. Do this about 5 times, then offer him to fire your 458 lott benched. Finaly, have him return to grandpas rifle and tell him there is little to worry about. Even though he might have developed a bigger flinch after that, in a month he can come back and feel better about shooting grandpas rig.

[ 08-25-2003, 17:20: Message edited by: smallfry ]

Seafire You are asking a pretty big question. If you check back in one of the older Lyman reloading manuals they listed reduced loads for every calibre in their book. These manuals are often availible at gun shows,gun shops that take consignments ,E-bay etc.

I'm sure you already have the youth loads at Hodgdon.com? HTH, Dutch.

Snow:

I have several of the Lyman manuals and it is a great source. The interest is IN WHAT DO PEOPLE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH. Not all of the downloads on their are very accurate. Asking for others experiences can save a lot of time.

Sharing of information is my orientation to coming onto this chatboard.

Thanks.

Seafire, good topic in the face of the current magnum mania that haunts us. In .308 I have loaded 150 speer mag tips with 40 grains of Varget for 1 moa accuracy at 2500fps. I had to use this load after a reconstructive surgery on my right shoulder and the difference was huge. If you need to go lighter use the 125-130 pistol bullets and keep the speed around 2400pfs at the muzzle.

And on the topic of magnums when are they going to neck the 50BMG down to .30 cal and get it over with?

Todd,

I hear you! I got attacked hand over fist coming on here in the beginning and made one little statement: " I don't think a good rifleman needs a magnum.... It is all about shot placement" You would not believe the attacks I took over that. I don't care what a guy carries if he can shoot it. However, too many guys who buy mags, can't shoot a 270 worth a dam.

On downloading stuff lately, and chronographing, I am amazed at how little velocity is lost at 100 yds, when the bullet starts out at lower velocity, at least according to the manuals. It is also amazing how much you can reduce recoil if you care to limit your needed range to 150 to 200 yds.

Loaded up my old 30/40 Krag tonight and will have fun tomorrow chronographying that. Got me going on it, based on the thread on Obscure calibers for hunting on here. I love those old long throated rifles. People back at the turn of the century knew a lot more than we give them credit for, ( and we know a lot less than we think we do in today's world).

PS: This is not intented to start a fight with anyone, so please just take it as one person's opinion, right or wrong. Thanks.

I shot some of the 170 gr Hornady FP ahead of IMR-4198 today out of my '06. Well under 1" at 50 yards. I will be loading up some more to shoot at longer ranges.

As far as the BMG necked down to .308, it has already been done long ago. Check out the .50 Cal Shooters Association website. They used to have pictures of the 20mm necked down to .50. The only thing keeping more people from hunting with them is higher cost of any action for a .50 BMG based cartridge. Sean

Seafire
I have had some real world experience with down loading for hunting and can share one major problem I had. Many years ago when my wife first started hunting with me I wanted a lower recoiling load for her to start off with so I worked up a reduced load in my 270. I don't remember what the exact load was but I was using a 140 grain Hornady BT bullet. The speed was about 2200- 2300 FPS at the muzzle. During practice the load was very accurate consistently grouping around 1". Everything was perfect.

We went deer hunting and my wife saw a little buck mule deer about 200 yards away up a very steep hill. I told her to take her time and shoot the deer. At the shot the deer fell out of sight like he was hit with a bolt of lightning. After the usual high fives and hugs we started to climb the hill to get the deer. We get up to where we saw the deer go down. No deer. After searching for about 20 minutes I finally see the deer about 200 yards across the hill staggering around. My wife shoots 3 more times at the moving deer and misses. She is now out of ammo(she forgot to bring any more with her from the truck). Since I was trying to help her get a deer I did not bring a rifle so we had to watch the deer slowly die from the first shot. This was very hard on my wife. Analysis of the bullet tolds the whole story. The bullet had hit just a little high and with the high angle of the shot had just caught the top of one lung and lodged in the spine. The bullet did not expand at all. The combination of reduced load and the distance had dropped the bullet velocity to below the amount needed for expansion. After that episode my wife said she will NEVER use reduced load for hunting again and I have to agree with her. I will use reduced load for practice but NOT for hunting.

MtElk:

Sorry to hear that experience with your wife's deer. One has to be careful about the bullet that is selected for downloading and that it will reliably penetrate or expand at impact velocities.

My preference is normally a round nose bullet. One reason that I do love the 6.5 bore so much is that bullets for it are also spec'ed for the older European 6.5 x 52's x 54s x 55, x 57s.
Many had a MV of only 2000 fps.

Hornady does list in their manual the bullets useful velocity. Since no slow calibers were ever made in 270 bore, it is harder to get a reliable performer. MY own choice would have been a 150 grain round nose or the Nosler Ballistic tips. The Ballistic Tips will expand right down to about 1500 fps, reliably. I assume shot placement was adequate on what you indicated.

A case in point in my current playing with a 30/40 Krag for Bear this season. A 220 grain Sierra Round Nose , talking with their techs, is really a bullet best suited for a magnum. They indicated that in a 30/06 it should be loaded to max to get reliable expansion out of it. However Hornady's manual lists their 220 grain Round Nose's useful velocity from 3000 fps down to 1600 fps. You do have to read the fine print so to speak. In the Krag, however, Hornady's 180 grain Round Nose, is not as low velocity friendly as Speers 180 grain Round Nose, for on game performance.

I do hope you both don't have to experience that twice in life, regardless of caliber or bullet velocity.


[ 08-27-2003, 02:47: Message edited by: seafire ]

I have a question while everyone is on this subject:

Do the listed Youth Loads on Hodgdon's site have a min/max range?

They list a very specific charge, but what if that's not very accurate? Can I play with it up or down a little, and if yes, how much? I'm thinking specifically of the 300WinMag loads. They show about 45gr of H4895.
Any experience with this powder? Before I set up with the exact charge shown I'd like to know if I have some flexibility.

Seafire--I started my grandson shooting when he was 7. I did not want to expose him to too much recoil,so we used .22 centerfires and often with cast bullets. You can greatly reduce recoil using cast bullets. I gradually moved him up to .243 which he could handle. He got his first deer at age 9 and that was with a .22 hornet. He got one with a .222 and I think the rest have all been with .243. We did try cast bullet in .243 and that was a bad experience. The velocity was high and I guess there just wasnt any expansion from the cast bullet. I'll not use cast for hunting again unless it is in a much larger cal. Grandson is now 14 and has gotten atleast one deer every year since the first one and .243 is as big as we have gone.

Gonzo,
Taken from the intro page of the Hogdon Youth Loads: Call Hodgdon Powder Company if additional information is needed. Loads may be adjusted up or down to achieve best accuracy. Do not reduce by more than an additional 10%.

Sean

I can't tell you how many times I've seen kids shooting 7mm and 300 magnums before deer season, and flinching all over the place (grownups too, but that's another issue). I can't figure out what their dads are thinking. Maybe inexperience in both generations.

By the way, Seafire, I grew up just down the road from you--Rogue River.

Fireform: I'll give Rogue River your regards when I pass thru there tomorrow going over to Medford. Amen on the kids and mags. Watch their dads flinch also.

Gonzo. while I have used H 4895 on downloading the 300 Mag, I have several more powders that I prefer myself. Depending on desired velocity, and I am talking 2200 fps range or so.
I like H 4198 or IMR 4198 in the 35 -37 grain range. The best I have tried is XMR 5744. 40 grains in a 300 Mag is great and one thing neat about 5744 is that it does not matter where the powder is in the case. It is a great download powder, not just as easy to find as the others.

seafire
After the episode with my wife I found out a better way of introducing a person (kid or person who has not shot much) to hunting sized rifles. I start them out using a .22 centerfire rifle Usually a 223 rem. I take them out and let them shoot the gun ALOT during the summer at targets and small game. After they have shot several hundred round and are comfortable with the 223 I then move to a 243 with light bullets (i.e. 75 grains) and let them shot this for a few weeks and them move to full power 100 grains in the 243. By this time they are so used to shooting they don't even notice the increase in recoil. I usually let them shoot the 243 for the first few years and then work them up to bigger calibers in the same manner. I have used this method with a couple of kids now and it worked well.

My recently turned 13 year old son shoots a 300 savage with slightly reduced(150g @24-2500fps) loads. He uses a recoil shield that we got from midway. I have him practice from field positions on deer archery targets; seldom does he shoot from the bench. That recoil shield has made a lot of difference!
He even takes a few shots (every now and then)
from my 30-06; a hard kicking remington mountain rifle. My limited experience with kids shooting suggests that the recoil shield is well worth having.

Mt Elk:

I agree with your philosophy on training a kid and moving up. However, the focus of this thread was loads that I assemble to help kids out, who have a inherited hard kicker ( to them) and their dads don't handload.

My son is only Nine but when he gets to be shooting age, ( he has not interest in it yet), his first centerfire will be a compact 223 Ruger ( with the 16 inch barrel)

I already have enough 243s on hand and 260s for when he gets a little bigger. I might even have one of the 243s rebarreled to 250 savage for him based on some recommendations on this board from Ray Atkinson and 9.3 x 62.

However sometimes we have to use the resources available. I am surprised on how many people only own one rifle. I'd wear out a barrel once a year If I only had one rifle.

a few years ago a friend bought rem # 7 with a 2x7 leupold for his son , 10 years old , he also wanted some reduced loads so his son could get used to the rifle in 7mm/08 so i used fed brass,
win lrp,speer 110 gr tnt and aa 5744 powder, seated 15 thousands off the rifleing, i tried 16 to 21 grs at 50 yards in 5 shot groupes, well every load shot under a inch with the best loads
of 20 @ 1737 fps and 1/4 inch groupe and 21 @1803
fps for 3/8 , i was very impressed for a brand new rifle ,and no tuning, although not good for deer after he shot about 300 or so of this load he was ready for the full power loads when he was 12 years old and legal to go hunting

I was never much of a fan of loading down a cartridge. It would be much better if the said Kid was given a rifle that fits. Most problems with shooting is a fitting problem. Also most 12 year olds can shoot a 243 6.6 x 55 or 7mm Mauser if the guns fit and they get to shoot some. A good load is a 120gr Speer SP in the 6.5 x 55. Light recoil and very accurate and its pure poison on White Tails.

Seafire, I have a 270 that I use a lot!! My son (12) was developing a flinch, tried the 223 trip, but when it came to larger game, flinch reared its ugly head. So I loaded 110 gr bullets (pretty much full house loads), and flinch gone, and guess what! Bloody sight more pleasant to shoot for Dad too!