Had an opportunity to talk to a very experienced gunsmith about muzzle brakes... I was looking to put one of the BP-Tec VA Comp brakes on my 338-378 Weatherby... The gunsmith (44 years of experience) said that the only brakes that are actually "loud" are those that push the gas out perpendicular to the barrel or backwards towards the shooter..

He noted that he had tried many different designs himself and any of them that pushed the gasses out more forward didn't raise the noise level to anything but what was in front of the rifle... Not a good place to be when it's going off anyway...

After a range session last week with the Weatherby, I did try to be away from the other benches but it was a busy day, I chatted with the folks on the benches next to me... None of them said it was an issue at all... Said the boom got their attention until they got used to it but it wasn't any louder then any other boomer they had heard... Being a 378 based cartridge it's going to be an attention getter anyway....

Just thought I would throw this out there for any other opinions or comments...

Ken....

If you look around it's never hard to find opinions that support the answer you're looking for.

The truth of the matter is a brake actually works by pushing the gas backwards. If it doesn't do that the brake isn't efficient.

I personally hate them. If you shoot one without hearing protection it'll cause hearing damage which is more permanant than a sore shoulder.

If the kick bothered me I would think about stepping down to a milder cartridge.

Terry

This squares with what my local 'smith told me. He only installs a brake that he describes as an "11 degree forward" brake. I do not know the brand, but he says the ports are slightly angled forward so the blast is not directed to shooters on other benches or back toward the shooter or guide. He also says that this brake is less effective since it diffuses the rearward motion of the rifle rather than counteracts it. I haven't needed one of these yet, but the concept sounds good.

Regards,

LWD

Would stand to reason that directing the blast forward would reduce the blast to folks on the side, and would also reduce the effectiveness of the brake.

The only time I've had a shooting session where I didn't shoot was a crowded day where the guy set up next to me with a braked 30-378. The muzzle blast was too much for me to sit at the bench next to him, let alone get any shooting done.

I've found there are many ways to deal with recoil w/o resorting to a muzzle brake.

To the extent that muzzle gas is directed some direction other than directly with the line of the bore, recoil will be reduced (at least marginally). The further rearward gas is directed, the more the reduction. If gas is directed slightly forward, then the recoil reduction less.

Similarly, muzzle blast is increased the more gas is directed away from the line of the bore (an toward the shooter), so yes, forward angled ports will not be as loud as rearward angled ports, but will be substantially louder than an unported barrel.

So yes, forward angled brake vents will still reduce recoil slightly (hardly worth the effort) and will still increase muzzle blast, but not so much as rearward angled brake vents.

Bottom line: Brakes never reduce recoil enough to make their increased muzzle blast worthwhile. Besides, when shooting from an offhand position they are unneeded, and when shooting from the bench a recoil absorbing rest (like the Lead Sled) can be used, making the recoil an non-issue anyway.

A muzzle brake, even the best, is (1) ugly, (2) potentially detrimental to accuracy, (3) costs money, (4) decreases the resale value of a gun, and (5) destroys the collectibility of an otherwise collectible gun.

A suppressor can be configured so that it both reduces sound and recoil. This requires a rather large and sophisticated mechanism, and besides, it's illegal to own or hunt with in most jurisdictions.

But let's examine the fundamental physics of muzzle braking. It works by reducing the mass of the forward-vectored ejecta. The ejecta consists of the bullet (let's say 300 grains) and the gases and ash resulting from the burned powder (let's say 100 grains).

If you could divert 100% of the gas and ash 90 degrees from the line of the bore, then that would negate 1/4 of the recoil; in other words that would be a 25% reduction. Worthwhile, one would say.

Now, in the real world with the most rearward-slanted vents, it might be possible to divert 10% of the gas & ash effectively 90 degrees from the line of the bore. This is 10 grains out of 400 grains of ejecta, meaning that the recoil reduction is 2.5%. Is this worth it? More importantly, is it worth it to loose what little hearing you have left?

Muzzle brakes, see through scope mounts, and crescent butt plates all have their place. Just not with serious hunters and shooters.

Muzzle brakes work by more than simply redirecting the ejecta of powder gas and ash, assuming gas pressure is more than atmospheric when the bullet leaves, which is true for every round I'm familiar with.

Brakes definately work, and work better the higher the pressure of the gas when the bullet leaves.

See through scope mounts are useless, crescent buttplates have their place, though not on modern bolt guns, and brakes have their place.

I'd say for those that have neck, back and or shoulder problems, brakes are a very important tool to allow thos folks to keep shooting.

I actually always seem to have time to put in a set of earplugs . I am always wondering how fast the game animals must be moving in some of the areas where the guys who worry about hearing damage live.

I usually have AT LEAST a few minutes to work with,..and I hunt a lot in the thick eastern coast wooded areas and marshes where shots can often be very close.

I have had good luck with the Vais breaks,..and they seem to be less loud than others,...the BOSS is the worst thing I have ever stood near.

Especially for spotting longer range hits,..it helps to reduce the muzzle flip and keeps the view in the scope still useable under recoil.

YMMV

I had the misfortune of having a range station next to a fellow with a muzzle braked 270 Weatherby Magnum a couple of weeks ago. I had to time my shots when he wasn't shooting. The percussion to the side was completely obnoxious. I can see why some of the african countries will no longer allow them with their guides getting deafened.

I recommend shooting more to get used to the recoil rather than jumping into a muzzle brake so you can shoot a bigger caliber. That's one shortcut that I don't think should be taken.

The BP-Tec brake looks promising, but I'll wait for more real world feedback. I hate muzzle blast more than recoil, and none of my rifles have brakes, including .338 Lapua, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby and .458 Lott. I would love a brake that cuts recoil AND doesn't increase the SPL and blast, and will embrace it but until then I remain on the no brake bandwagon.

IF you always wear ear protection when hunting or have the time to put in plugs great for you. In my hunting situations there are times when you simply don't have the time to fuss with ear protection...unless you wear it all the time. If you are on horseback and bump a buck, it is all I can do to dismount, get the rifle from the scabbard, chamber a round, clear the horse and get into a good shooting position before that guy is gone.

If one is not hunting alone and in a party situation the problem is magnified with most brakes. Even with great muzzle disipline others in your party may be affected. I even think the 4 slot Magnaport is too loud so I could be a total wimp

John

I suspected that this post would generate some comments and so far it certainly has...

Fundamentally there are two types of brakes. Those that simply divert the gas and hence reducing recoil which are very loud to those nearby. The other is the type that use the gas pressure on baffles to reduce recoil which are nowhere near as loud...

When they use the diverted gas to reduce the recoil the discharge is at minimum 90 degrees to the barrel and many push some rearward...

When they use the gas pressure on the baffles to reduce recoil they divert the gas in a more forward direction. This gives a slightly more directed muzzle blast. This blast is marginally more then when the bullet leaves the barrel and the gas is diverted by the tail of the bullet..

The baffle concept has been around for many decades but hasn't been around that long in the rifle industry...

The folks next to me at the range said it was the "thump" that they noticed more then the noise and that the difference with or without the brake was not decernable... This would be the factory Weatherby Accubrake which uses the baffle concept and pushes the gas somewhat forward... By the way, having shot the 338-378 with and without the brake I can say it's a very effective brake...

I do have the "luxury" of being able to wear hearing protection while hunting here in AZ.. I use electronic muffs so I can leave them on all the time (which is not a bad thing in the cold months )...

Ken....

One experienced gunsmith made me a one muzzle brake so that the holes are 5 degrees forward. It works well and takes the hardest kick away but when you shoot without hearing protection the noise is much worse than it use to be before.

I have the J.P. Recoil Eliminator on my .300 Win Mag. I love it! It is loud but not the sharp ear piercing sound most brakes have. It aldo knocks my .300 mag down to less recoil than a .260 Rem.
I have one because the whole idea that shooting more will get you used to the recoil don't float if you suffer from injurys. I can handle the .300 for one shot while hunting no problem but what about practice and working up loads? My shoulder would not take it. I put up with pain for years before I got the shoulder fixed. I had developed a huge spur that had the bursa almost crushed. Dr. told me if I wanted to keep shooting all the time I better start takeing better care of my shoulder. I can shoot my .300 all day now if I want with no pain and no one at the club seems to mind the noise. As a matter of fact I am seeing more and more brakes being used. As for that one shot when hunting how many years did you shoot without plugs? Up untill the last decade I seldom remember seeing guys wear plugs at the range. Yes now we are more aware of what is bad for us but it is not that hard to put plugs in before the shot. I forgot to this year and never noticed it with the brake I have.
It actually bothered me less than some of those damn small bores at the range do. Those 22-250s and hopped up 6mms are loud.

I have a break on my 300 and I love it! It is louder but GUNS ARE LOUD! Are breaks annoying, to some people probably.

It's louder than before but you don't notice when shooting a animal anyways. I have a gun I can shoot for as long as I want comfortably. Which makes me happy.

I have a brake on my 338 RUM and my 375 H&H that I take off for hunting. Only use the brake on the bench.

quote:

Muzzle brakes work by more than simply redirecting the ejecta of powder gas and ash

Paul, could you explain your physics a little more fully? Recoil is created by the accelaration of the ejecta. What else can you do to counter that accelaration other than to redirect part of the mass? And since the bullet (3/4 of the mass of the ejecta) cannot be redirected, how can recoil be reduced to less than AT LEAST 75% even if 100% of the remaining ejecta is redirected?

Has anyone out there actually used the BP TEC brake that claims to not increase noise?

I have a brake on a Browning 375 H&H , for bench work and load testing. http://www.muzzlebrakes.com/index.htm
Vais brake are not as bad as others that I have seen and been around for increaseing noise level.

quote:

Bottom line: Brakes never reduce recoil enough to make their increased muzzle blast worthwhile. Besides, when shooting from an offhand position they are unneeded, and when shooting from the bench a recoil absorbing rest (like the Lead Sled) can be used, making the recoil an non-issue anyway.

You are so wrong, philosophers weep at the sound of your voice...



And yes, this IS me and the brake is reported to be nearly 60% effective. It will also knock anything that is on the bench, OFF the bench. I don't go to the range with it too often, trying to be friendly ya know.

quote:

And yes, this IS me and the brake is reported to be nearly 60% effective.

"'Reported' to be nearly 60% effective"?

"Reported" by whom and "60% effective" at what? And measured how? If you are trying to imply that the brake is reducing recoil by 60%, then you simply are ignoring fundamental physics.

It is a wonderful thing that you can type and communicate by written media, Collins. The spoken word is obviously an experience of the past for you.

I had a brake installed on my 300 Winney some years ago and love it. It is a sub moa very old Zastava that weighs 7 pounds. The brake has no effect on accuracy and MV. I use electronic muffs and there is no noise problem. Some Smith in Arizona installed the thing....can't remember who or even what kind it is! Regards, Rick.

I only have one and it's on my AR. The brake is from JP Enterprises and it sure takes the sting out ot the .223 Kidding aside, it's fun to shoot PDs with it as there is absolutely no recoil so you get to watch all the action. I tried shooting a running Coyote once with it and my right ear rang for 8 hours 'cause I didn't use my muffs or plugs.

I've installed a bunch of brakes on everything form 22-250 to 7mm Mag and the folks who paid me to do it rave about them every time they see me. If it makes you a better shooter then you should have it, just be careful of everyone's hearing.

With a large magnum cartrige a large portion of the recoil is generated when the high volume of high pressure gasses escaping the muzzle pushes the rifle into your shoulder like a rocket. The inital pulse of accelerating the bullet is actually a small part of the recoil pulse.

This is why a brake can be so effective, Any redirection of gasses in any other direction other than straight out the muzzle reduces the recoil rather significantly.

I've found that if you go with a brake that has no ports on bottom the increase in noise in minimal (IF you shoot a 300 mag much without protection you'll go deaf brake or no) I believe this is due to bot getting sound and pressure waves reflected back at you by the ground.
In a wide open space in the field I cannot tell any diffrence in noise with my 300wby pre or post brake. The brake I purchased from scorehighgunsmithing.com knocked my 300 WBY's recoil down to the same level as my CZ 7.62x39.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

And yes, this IS me and the brake is reported to be nearly 60% effective.

"'Reported' to be nearly 60% effective"?

"Reported" by whom and "60% effective" at what? And measured how? If you are trying to imply that the brake is reducing recoil by 60%, then you simply are ignoring fundamental physics.

It is a wonderful thing that you can type and communicate by written media, Collins. The spoken word is obviously an experience of the past for you.

Sorry IIRC, 'Reported' to be nearly 60% effective. It's a BMG, I guess you may have never shot one.

Watch the video.

Physics is wonderful... I betcha can't tell me how much the smoke weighs!

Lastly...

quote:

It is a wonderful thing that you can type and communicate by written media, Collins. The spoken word is obviously an experience of the past for you.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I'm glad you can speak, your typing makes no sense at all

I put a brake on my 300 ultra mag and it is without a doubt the best money I have spent for that gun. I shoot alot and I was always coming home with a sore shoulder after shooting a box of rounds and since the brake I can shoot all I want and my grooping has improved since I no longer flinch from the recoil.

My buddy has a 340 wby in a mark v that is breaked. The recoil is like shooting a 270. I could shoot that rifle all day long.

But it sounds just like my ported 454 casull when it goes off. It is the loudest rifle I have ever heard. My ears are ringing now just thinking about it. When we hunt together I plug my ears (and hide) if I know he is about to fire.

If you don,t think muzzel brakes work or that you just need to be MANLY and hang on Go and check out the T REX videos.. at the AR video section...you can see what not haveing a brake on does.......I can,t even comprehend what the 12 ga FH would be like....

Heat: My main Elk Hunting (and spring Bear Hunting) partner has a 30" barreled custom 338/378 Weatherby WITH a recoil reducing muzzle brake on it!
The incredible muzzle blast (shock wave!) and unbelievable noise that is produced by this MONSTER is literally debilitating!
Headches are the norm for me even when I am many feet behind my friend when he touches this "bitch" off!
I was lying beside my friend on an Elk Hunt as we were sizing up a beautiful 7x7 Bull Elk here in Montana! As he made up his mind to shoot this trophy (with his 338/378) I knew enough to "reverse" belly crawl further behind him as he prepared for the shot. My head was at least 2 feet further from the muzzle of that "bitch" than my friends, when he touched it off!
I was instantly deafened! AND the resulting headache lasted til THE NEXT MORNING!
To this day I am thrilled and thankful that his single shot at that Trophy was ENOUGH to kill the Bull!
I do not think the 338/378 Weatherby Magnum with a muzzle brake is safe to shoot without top quality hearing protection!
The shock wave from my friends Rifle also actually induces pain in ones sinus cavities if you are within 20' of it at the shot!
If you are going to add a muzzle brake to your 338/378, be SURE to carry excellent hearing protectors with you as you Hunt - and use them!
Best of luck.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I'm an opponent of using brakes on sporting rifles for several reasons:

1. They are ugly.
2. They cost more than rifles without them (so you basically have to shell out more $$ to make your rifle uglier...)
3. They are absolutely obnoxious to be around when shooting - doesn't matter what kind.
4. There are no sporting situations where they would be considered appropriate
a. If you are hunting, you will never notice the recoil.
b. If you are on the bench, use a lead sled or a recoil pad (PAST works very well)
5. Simply adding a little weight to a gun will soften recoil considerably (my 340 WBY weighs 10lbs - if you think this is too much, see below)

If you still can't shoot the gun with all these factors in place, you need more practice or step down to something more appropriate to your skill level. It still applies the shot placement is far more important than the power. If you have a 460 and can't hit crap and I have a 375 that I can hit the X all day - who is going to get the game? Just a few thoughts...to each his own, but don't shoot your 300 winnie with the brake on the bench right next to me, please.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Heat: My main Elk Hunting (and spring Bear Hunting) partner has a 30" barreled custom 338/378 Weatherby WITH a recoil reducing muzzle brake on it!
The incredible muzzle blast (shock wave!) and unbelievable noise that is produced by this MONSTER is literally debilitating!
Headches are the norm for me even when I am many feet behind my friend when he touches this "bitch" off!
I was lying beside my friend on an Elk Hunt as we were sizing up a beautiful 7x7 Bull Elk here in Montana! As he made up his mind to shoot this trophy (with his 338/378) I knew enough to "reverse" belly crawl further behind him as he prepared for the shot. My head was at least 2 feet further from the muzzle of that "bitch" than my friends, when he touched it off!
I was instantly deafened! AND the resulting headache lasted til THE NEXT MORNING!
To this day I am thrilled and thankful that his single shot at that Trophy was ENOUGH to kill the Bull!
I do not think the 338/378 Weatherby Magnum with a muzzle brake is safe to shoot without top quality hearing protection!
The shock wave from my friends Rifle also actually induces pain in ones sinus cavities if you are within 20' of it at the shot!
If you are going to add a muzzle brake to your 338/378, be SURE to carry excellent hearing protectors with you as you Hunt - and use them!
Best of luck.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I guess next time you'll put your fingers in your ears

Forget muzzle breaks and if the calibre/barrel alowsw fit a sound moderator then you get the best of both worlds.
Less noise
Less recoil
Less muzzle flip.

Mark

After shooting my 300 Apex for decades with a Lyman muzzle brake which my friend 400 Nitro Express calls a "Friend Loosing Son-of-a-Bitch"
I replaced it with a threaded, knurled cap.

For me the best brake is no brake.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
After shooting my 300 Apex for decades with a Lyman muzzle brake which my friend 400 Nitro Express calls a "Friend Loosing Son-of-a-Bitch"
I replaced it with a threaded, knurled cap.

For me the best brake is no brake.

Excellent post Rusty.

I can shoot both my 375 and 404 (and reasonably well I might add) without the necessity of a brake. I believe that will hack anything on this planet!!!

If I owned such a weapon that required a brake to make it "shootable" It should be sold to someone else that can shoot it.

Interesting set of opinions here for sure...

VarmintGuy... One thing is for sure here is that the brake on your friends rifle used the released gas pressure as the recoil reducer... Baffled brakes are nowhere near as load and are actually more efficient...

Bottom line of the guys next to me at the range was that they had no issue with the noise or blast.. I certainly didn't notice the blast at all and always wearing ear protection there simply was no noise of any volume that was noticable...

It is the Weatherby factory Accubrake which uses the baffle concept.. They use the gas pressure against a set of baffles to reduce the recoil and send the vast majority of the associated ported gas more downrange then out to the sides... This whole concept makes the "negative" part of muzzle brakes (noise) an "almost" non issue... The noise is a BIT more but the muzzle blast is so well dicipated that it is a total non issue...

Though the muzzle brake concept has been around for decades, in the modern world it is still a fledgling technology... That is changing quicker then many think and I'll bet it's only a question of time before they become much more common place on high power rifles....

By the way guys, I've shot it with and without the brake... The muzzle blast is a bit more noticable without the brake and at the same time it is a bit less noisy... It is reasonably comfortable to shoot without the brake as it weighs a touch over 10 pounds.. You wouldn't want to run an entire box of ammo through it off the bench though...


Ken....

Clayman, I think it is inappropriate that you assume that someone that needs or wants a brake does not have the skill level to shoot that caliber rifle. I disagree that being able or willing to withstand physical punshment is a skill. A guy at 150 pounds compared to a guy that is maybe 250 is not going to take the same beating for the most part. Everyone can and should use ear protection at the range. Anyone with a brake should have courtesy to let guys know before they touch one off. I even carry extra sets of new earplugs for people who may not have any when I am shooting.

The use or non use of a brake is a choice just like caliber choice. Too many guys think that everyone who uses a big caliber is trying to make up for lack of shooting skills or hunting skills. It just ain't so. I can shoot my .300 Winny as good now as I could before but now I can do it longer and without pain.

I don't know how much some of you guys shoot who think you can just practice and get used to the recoil and pain but that is not always so. It is hard to shoot all day when you are in pain and then shoot again the next day or even next weekend for that matter when you are still healing.

One thing I can say, if you don't want someone with a brake shooting next to you don't visit my club. You would be hard pressed to find a bench.

In all the posting on this subject, all i read is OPINIONS. where is the factual data to prove good/bad-more/less-up/down. haven't seen it anywhere, so that tells me it's only personal and nothing more. same as whether you like winchester--remington--weatherby or mossburg. Big Whoop!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by two canoes:
In all the posting on this subject, all i read is OPINIONS.

well...read this by Heat....the one that started the thread.....

quote:

Originally posted by Heat:
Just thought I would throw this out there for any other opinions or comments...

Seems opinions are what was asked for.

Krochus: The ONLY reason my fingers were not FIRMLY stuffed DEEP into my ears was because I was using my binoculars to "spot" the shot for my Elk Hunting partner!
Its not so often that we get a chance at a 7x7 Bull Elk - on public land!
We have to make those opportunities count.
I have stood next to fellows shooting all manner of Rifles and calibers and spotted for them but this incident was VERY noteworthy for its effects and for the lesson I learned - put a set of those foam ear plugs in your day pack - they are not that heavy!
I personally would never own a Big Game Rifle with a muzzle brake on it. I have shot lots of Rifles with brakes and even PAID once to have Darrell Holland put one of his fine brakes on a custom Varmint Rifle in caliber 223 Remington. It does its job (rendering the already heavy Rifle into producing less recoil for spotting my own hits).
This brake works very well there on my 223 except for when I am shooting prone! Then it sucks up, into the scopes view, so much dust and dirt that the sight picture is obscured by that phenomenon!
And like someone said they are "unattractive"!
To each their own in that regard though.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Two canoes: Opinions can be facts!
I know my opinion of the muzzle brake on a 338/378 Weatherby and the noise and pain that it causes - IS a fact!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

When I was in the service we shot the M2 50 BMG some..........If I was standing next to it the concussion would make my fillings hurt.....Every one who would watch me shoot my 500 A-Sq. was pretty sure that I could shoot it just fine...........But after getting injured I should have put a muzzel brake on it...........I no longer have that problem I put breaks on my rifle ...,.,I never realized how many WIMP,s there were who posted on this site ... People should study the pic. of 500 gr shooting an inbound elephant.....What the professional hunter is doing is a good lesson to all ............I also carry extra earplugs with me............You see , I have learned that Proper Planning Prevents POOR Preformance...Varmit guy,, At what point did you realise that a 338/378 with a muzzel brake was going to be too loud???????????? And , as you don,t have to listen too closely when you have a 7x7 elk in the final stages of the stalk....I would imagine it was over 100 yrds away.. Why didn,t you stick your fingers in your ears...Or put some plugs in...........Can any one say that they want to be next to a rifle that shoots over 100 gr of powder with out hearing protection wether it has a muzzel break on it or not And your buddy with the rifle ,, Did he ever suggest to you you may not want to be so close????? And you blame the muzzel brake ...........Why don,t you take some responsibility for your own actions......

quote:

Originally posted by Jacobite:
Clayman, I think it is inappropriate that you assume that someone that needs or wants a brake does not have the skill level to shoot that caliber rifle. I disagree that being able or willing to withstand physical punshment is a skill. A guy at 150 pounds compared to a guy that is maybe 250 is not going to take the same beating for the most part. Everyone can and should use ear protection at the range. Anyone with a brake should have courtesy to let guys know before they touch one off. I even carry extra sets of new earplugs for people who may not have any when I am shooting.

Jacobite, I just meant that in sporting situations in the field, you never really feel recoil. The extra blast and noise associated with brakes is simply unnecessary. At the range when sighting in or practicing, a lead sled is far more effective than any brake, and it doesn't bother other shooters as much (ditto to your comment about wearing ear protection - I use both plugs AND muffs when practicing). If the lead sled is not your bag, a good recoil pad or a heavy coat go a long way in taking the sting out of the big boomers. When shooting from field positions, with my PAST pad or my hunting jacket on, the hard and fast slam of my 340 is reduced to a more manageable shove. I was not trying to imply anyone with a brake is a wussy, just saying there may be more effective ways at reducing the effects of recoil.

I think you and I both know there ARE people out there shooting guns, that even with brakes, are waaaay too big for their britches. These are the shooters to worry about at the range and in the field.