Keep in mind that my intention is not to argue about one or the other, but instead to present the information to those who are interested in learning some of the details about the .338-06.

http://www.quarterbore.com/library/articles/33806.html

Fairly good article, if somewhat prejudiced. He loses all credibility though when in his postscript, he admits to not ever owning one.
With that said, I'll stick to my .35 Whelen and .338 magnums, thank you very much.
Paul B.

Good article Ray.

I agree with most everything, but, even though the 338-06 does have a couple virtues over the Whelen, I think that they are generally over-emphasized and in the real world any difference would go virtually unnoticed.

In my view, both the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen are close enough to each other that on game it would be hard to tell which one is better than the other.

I have the latest Hodgdon manual and was amazed to see that with every bullet weight up to and including the 250 grain, the .338-06 is only 100 fps less than the .338 winchester.

Slowhand:
And if you look at some of the earlier reloading data, IE Speer #7, you will see that the 35 Whelen sends a 250 grain bullet down range at 2650 fps + which is less than 100 fps slower than the 338 win mag. And if it makes any difference with one heck of a lot less powder.

In my experience, and this is limited to MY rifles, I can drive every bullet I wish faster in the Whelen than I can in the 338-06. Thats what the cronograph shows, hard to argue with that.

Having always wanted a 338/06 I asked a local gunsmith who used one for hunting. he told me a story about knocking down a nice mule deer doe at 100yds. As he approched the downed animal she got back up and walked of taking another shot to end the show.

I then had my gun rebarreled to the .375 HAWK (375/06)and have had the most fun hunting of my life. When two calibers are close in terms of bullet weight and fps, I'll take the larger dia. bullet every time.

I still have my 35 Whelen for back up. What was the load for 2650?

Snapper

What a waste of reading time...He has compared apples to apples....and left some issues out at that....but one is as good as the other..

Now if you want to stir the troops compare the 270 to the 30-06 for the one millionth time, and it still rumbles, again it is ridiculas to compare them as they are equal, and toss the 7 mag in that barrel to boot.....

Ray:

I love the 270, own a couple. I liked Jack O'Connor as well. LOL. But I must confess, darn, I also own a slew of 30-06 rifles. I find a rifleman must have both, or he dosen't know what he is about. I feel the same way about the 338-06, and the 35 Whelen. If you are going to argue, which is pointless anyway, you better have the rifles and equipment to back up the talk. Unless of course, you are talking about the 270 Winchester, which is better than anything ever made. Just Kidding

Snapper:

The loads I have been using came out of the old Speer #8 Manual. I have been using these loads since the early 1970's, and have never had a problem. But you know the drill, always work up, because one dosen't know what his particular rifle will do with any given load. Speer loads up to 58 grains of IMR4064, I use 56 grains with the 250 grain bullet and get over 2600fps with my 24" custom Remington Model 700. These loads were tested over a Pact Cronograph.

Jerry

Jerry Eden:

Sometimes one barrel may shoot faster than another. You may have a fast one on your .35 Whelen. I could be wrong, but I imagine that barrel twist could also affect velocity.

At least in theory, .33 bullets of the same weight as the .35's, should fly a little faster, and penetrate deeper. The .35 bullets have greater diameter, but .33 bullets have greater SD.

There is an old article written by Finn Aggaard (I have a copy somewhere), where he explains why he would choose the .338-06, but also explains that in relation to ballistics both are about the same, and that one should expect the same result from both on game.

We handloaders always squeeze a little extra velocity from our guns, often not even thinking about the pressures generated. I wonder how much pressure buildup is felt in your .35 when you shoot a 250-grain bullet past 2,600 fps? It should be interesting to test it with a Pressure Trace. I have never used one of these, but "Turok" was testing some .338's not too long ago, and the results were very interesting.

[ 11-04-2003, 07:20: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

I also have a .270, 7x57,308,300 H&H and a 30-06, doesn't everyone, but I ask myself why..I have a 338 and a 9.3x62 and again I ask my self why...A 375, a 9.3x62, a 416, 404, and a 450-400 again I ask why...

I could keep the the 06 and the 404 and have the same thing...

I ask what has anything got to do with anything in gundumbville......

Ray Alaska:

In all the years I have been loading the 35 Whelen, I have had no pressure signs at all from the loads I mentioned earlier. I live in Arizona, and during the summer, some guys have lots of problems with overpressure loads because of the heat. I never have with 4064. As far as the velocity is concerned, my friend has a Douglas Bbl on a 98 Mauser, he shoots 55.9 grains of 40 64, and his stuff cronographs at 2590 +. We worked the loads up together and the results were very similar in both rifles.

As to driving the bullets faster in the Whelen, its because of the expansion ratio. The larger the bore the slower the rise in pressure. With equal bullet weights my 338, could not reach the same vels as the 35 Whelen without showing high pressure. This is not uncommon, as I have experienced it in other cartridges and calibers.

Good Shooting

Jerry

I own & shoot a .338-06. I have shot a .35 WHelen & several of the .338mags. I like them all, not much diff. between the lot, but I'll keep my .338-06 & let the rest buy the Whelen.

Ray,Alaska

I also have a Whelen that easily pushes a 250 gr bullet to 2600+ fps ( with great case life and no pressure signs) . There are several posters on AR that get nearly identical results . I doubt we all have exceptionally fast barrels . The wider bore will always give more velocity if all else is equal . Same as a 30/06 will drive a 150 gr bullet faster than a .270 .

I believe most of the traditional Whelen data is held to well under 50000 cup . Then folks come along and load the .338/06 to a max safe level and think the .33 bore is faster , but it's just not true .

I also have the Finn Aagard article on the two cartridges , but I don't read his conclutions quite the same as you do...........

There is not much difference between the two that you would ever be able to demonstrate in the field. However I do take exception to one statement the author made." The nature of of the cartridges themselves results in the 338-06 having slightly higher velocity". I have to call "Bull Shit". Both are nothing more than necked up 30-06s. When loaded to equal pressures with equal bullet weights the 35 will have the higher velocity.When he really has nothing to say he trys to dazzle us with bull shit. This is just another example of verbal diarrhea that some writers churn out with no first hand knowledge or experience.

Boys, all I can tell you is that I've only used the 35 Wheelen ONCE and was suitably impressed. With 225gr Swift A Frames behind 58.5gr of RL-15, I get nice 1" groups. I also achieve the same results with 55gr of IMR-4064 and 250gr Hornadys, shooting to the same POI. Sighted in at 2" high @ 100, it prints almost dead on at 200. I took it in the Maine bear woods in Sept and absolutely flattened a 320lb blackie. The range was 65 yards or so. jorge

Guys:

This is an interesting discussion, let me add some more to it.
I have decided to make my 338-06 into a 6mm Remington AI. I offered the 338-06 to my sons boss, but he is not a handloader, so he passed. As always, there seems to be a quandry when I am trying to make a decision on something gun related. A nice tuned up Mauser should make a nice platform for the AI.

Anybody need a 338-06 sizing die. LOL

Jerry

Good article, if one doesn't want to look at books to make the same conclusion. If a 270 is good enough for elk (and it is, with 150s) then a 30-06 is more than good enough, and a 338-06 is overkill, and a 35 whelen, LOAD RIGHT, is even better.

IMHO, the 338-06, with 225s at 2700, will cleanly take any north american animal, with the possible exception of bison, from any angle you would care to take the shot.

338-06 is Not a 200 yard gun? HOG WASH!!

the gentleman stipulates that an elk REQUIRES 2000ft/lb of energy to be cleanly taken... and states the 338 can't do this at 200 yards.. again, hogwash.

In fact, a 225 gr hornady, at 2700 (this is top load) is 2.1" high at 100, zero at 200, with nearly 2600 ft/lbs (which means little) and 1 foot low at 325 yards, with over 2000ft/lb remaining. This makes it a WHOOPING 4" lower than a 338 mag, at 2900, and 340 ft/lbs less energy...

Hmm, okay.. the guy read several books to compare the 3, and then decided on NONE of them

jeffe

Jeffeosso:

Your right, the 338-06 is good enough for any game around this country, including the big bears. I am glad you brought up the comparison to the 338 Win Mag, for I have felt the 338-06 and the 35 Whelen performed, equally with the 338 Win Mag. When I have pointed this out in the past, people kind of shrugged it off, but it is true. The 338 Mag requires another 30-35 grains of powder to achieve this monumental increase. Even some of the folks in this thread think, the 338 Mag is on a different platau than the 06 based cases.

I sure wish I could get 2700 fps out of mine, but I can't. Thats why its about to become a 6mm RemAI

Jerry

This is part of Finn Aagaard's article:

�If I decided to settle on just one rifle for all my North American big game hunting and wanted a little more gun than the .30-06, I would be inclined to go with the .338-06.� Then down the paragraph: �On the other hand, if I already had a good deer rifle, a 7x57, .308 Winchester, .270 Winchester, .280 Remington or something of the sort, and wanted something with more authority for the likes of elk, moose and bears, I would probably take the .35 Whelen.�

�The awful truth, however, is that when I absolutely must have more thump than my .30-06 provides, I would prefer to go all the way up to the .338 Winchester Magnum (specially with Federal�s new High Energy load), or even the .375 H&H.�
--------
According to what he says, his .35 Whelen is slightly faster than his .338-06.
---------
Jerry: Perhaps I have a "fast" .338WM, because at the range it is usually ahead in speed to the powder charges listed in the reloading manuals. For example, with the chronograph placed 20' ahead of the muzzle, it yields 2,830 fps with a Lubalox coated 230-grain FS and RL-19. If I use the maximum powder charge listed in the Swift manual for a 275-Grain A-Frame and RL-22, I get somewhere past 2,550 fps. With 250-grain A-Frame and RL-22, as well as 250-grain Nosler I stop at 2,690 to 2,700 fps. However, my hunting loads with these bullets yield 2,650 fps (or so), since 2,700 fps is way over the maximum listed.

I tested Federal HE with 250-grain Partition, with an ambient temperature of 55 degrees, and it yielded 2,770 fps, just 30 fps below the advertised 2,800 fps.

That's it Ray . I don't see where Finn said one cartridge was "better" than the other .

My opinion , if you select one of these medium bores over the 30/06 , you are doing it to gain bullet mass and diameter . The .35 just has potentially more of that . If you only want to shoot bullets in the 200 gr class , I feel you might as well stick with the 30/06 .........

[ 11-05-2003, 17:58: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

Boy but was I ever Lucky!! Two years ago I shot a mature bull elk at 300 yds with my .338-06 and 225 gr partitions at 2650 fps. At that distance I had much less than the 2000#'s needed as per the article!!

Must have been a mistake that the bullet killed that elk cleanly in about 5 seconds and maybe 25 yards!! What a bunch of BS.

I just love those "power required" figures. So if 1500# is THE number and it falls to 1490# the bullet isn't going to penetrate?? Or bounce off?

Years ago when I was an inexperienced elk hunter I felt one needed something with MAGNUM on the rim. I knew a group of Gentleman from the Helena, Montana area that were all dedicated rifle loonies, with a few being succesful benchrest shooters. Three of the group swore by their .338-06 model 70's. They took elk regularly and easily. I laughed at that small round and stuck to my various magnums despite the recoil,expense,etc.

Twenty five years later...... Now I easily fill my freezer each year and do it with either a .280 Rem or a M70 in .338-06. The only magnums I shoot also have "H&H" on the rim. Hmmm. Maybe I've finally grown up?

Been hunting with a few Whelan nuts and between the .338-06 and the .35 Wh I can really see NO big difference on game. Used my .338-06 in RSA a few years ago and it performed admirably on impala to eland. All one shot kills.

FN in MT

I too have shot a 338-06 for years and been very happy with its performance. I have also used the .35 whelen and cant tell the difference. Only advantage I see over the .338-06 is that you can find factory ammo sometimes...
Real point that I am making here is that you are back to the personal preference issue and all the ballistics in the world can't change that.
The .35 whelen & 338-06 really shine with those 250 grain bullets. As much punch as your belted mags but without a recoil blast that will knock your shoulder blades together. To me...that is the real virtue of these two calibers...and the fact that you can get 30-06 brass dirt cheap.

swede

I've been shooting my 338/06 since 1989. I used it on my last two safaris in Africa where I took 9 of the large african antelope with it. Three of them were gemsbok all shot between 220-250 yd. It knocked them down flat at thoes ranges. I've kill a moose and a large cow elk with it along with a few deer and reindeer. I used the 200 gr Barnes X behind 58gr IMR 4064 to take the African stuff and the elk. This is the last bullet I will ever try in it. It works. I don't know if its better than a 35 Whelen. You can't deny the killing effect of this med bore caliber on game.

Neither of these rounds have interested me...as I found the calibre that is the solution to the 338-06 & .35 whelens problems.......the 9.3x62 supurb to say the least

I guess the guy who made the article wanted to be covered from all angles. After his quote that Eldeguello snipped, he wrote this;

"The ballistics and energy levels obtained with the 338-06 make it an ideal Elk and Moose caliber to ranges approaching 400 yards, which is as further than I feel is responsible for any Elk or Moose hunter to shoot. With the 250 gr. to 300 gr. bullets, the 338-06 produces around 3600 ft/lbs. of bear stomping power at the muzzle using bullets that are strongly constructed and capable of breaking bone to stop an angry charging bear at close range."

I guess he couldnt decide which it was..

And once again we see the truth of the bold letters in Eldeguellos signature..

Jerry E,

Which powders did you try in your 338-06??

Finn Aagaard also mentioned in his article that even the 225-grain 338-caliber out penetrated the 250-grain .35-caliber bullet.

But the bullet with the most penetration was the 220 grainer out of a .30-06.
-------
All that said, I feel that a 250-grain bullet at 2,600 fps out of a .35 Whelen (or even a .338-06) is too hot. After all, a Remington load with a 250-grain bullet is 200 fps slower. One way to tell for sure is to use a Pressure Trace to test the handloads at the range. But who am I to argue with anybody about it?

[ 11-08-2003, 09:48: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

just for the record, an article in the September 15, 1923 American Rifleman by Townsend Whelen himself gives 2635fs with 250 grains in the .35 Whelen using 62 grains of the old Dupont No. 15 powder, "Very satisfactory. Pressure normal". Did not give the bullet make, but it was "spitzer open point" which gave better results than the original bullet tried, which was the softpoint 250 from the .35 WCF. Also got 2834fs with 200 grain SP .35 Remington bullet using 60 grs of No. 16 powder, same commentary "Very satisfactory. Pressure normal." Average grouping was 2.35" for the 200 grain and 1.90" for the 250, these would have been 10 shot groups presumably from machine rest Mann barrels at Frankford Arsenal where Whelen was CO at the time. By the way will send a xerox of this article to anyone who asks who sends a buck to cover postage and etc. Have also seen but cannot find right now, an inside back cover of an old AR with a Griffin & Howe ad claiming high speed with a 275 grain.

Anyone interested in the effectiveness of the .338/'06 need only read Keith's stuff on the .333 OKH, which is essentially the same, except that now, in the .338/'06, we have a lot better selection of a lot better bullets than Elmer had....

wstrnhntr:

The powders I have used in the 338-06 are, 4064, 4350, Rl15 and H380. The best groups I have been able to get, were with 57 grains of 4350, with a 250 grain bullet at about 2400 fps.

Jerry