I didn't know they made a 338 WSM. Thought they decided to go with 325 WSM.

they don't as of yet, but the time is a coming I would bet...

I just had it catted and was done with it

Mark D

Mark, like you I have a hunch we'll see the 338 WSM... also heard a rumor the wssm's are done, as in, no more rifles in production... now there's a suprise... not.

A freind asked me the other day why I had a .35 whelen built when there is a .338-06,30-06,.280,.270,and a .25-06 in the locker. Is there an answer that makes sense to an "outsider"? Probably not but I'll give it a shot anyway. It's because I didn't want to do a 8mm-06 or a 6.5-06 ....yet.

Then the other question needs to be addressed. Why custom when you can get a factory that will do the same thing, performance wise? It's because you don't see too many 03A3s not chambered for the .30-06. When you do it's usually something you like to hold and love and carress and snuggle with and show off to your freinds and Oh, and to shoot too. Then to load for. To handle every peice of brass and bullet. To carefully shape and trim and measure every round with the utmost care and the most precision I am capable of so not a single round is wasted. Every case fired to be savoured like a fine......venison steak? Being sure so confident when the rifle is fired at a live animal there is no errors in rifle or cartridge.


The short answer is simple. For the love of it!

45otto, if you have to explain, they probably wouldn't understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dobrenski:
they don't as of yet, but the time is a coming I would bet...

I just had it catted and was done with it

Mark D

I'd be inclined to take that bet. from what I read in an article on the .325 WSM, they went that route because if the went to the .338 WSN, they'd have to go to a longer action and they did not want to do that. Seems like the heavier bullets in .338 caliber are too long and would have to be seated to deeply for efficiency.
You never know though. They just might change their minds.
The excuse never made sense to me though. I would think a 220 gr. 8mm bullet would be as long or longer than a 225 gr. .338 bullet.
Who knows?
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by 45otto:
When you do it's usually something you like to hold and love and carress and snuggle with and show off to your freinds and Oh, and to shoot too. Then to load for. To handle every peice of brass and bullet. To carefully shape and trim and measure every round with the utmost care and the most precision I am capable of so not a single round is wasted. Every case fired to be savoured like a fine......venison steak? Being sure so confident when the rifle is fired at a live animal there is no errors in rifle or cartridge.

LMAO

otto - you need to get out more!!

PS - Be careful, you'll expose us all!!!!

Since the 338/06 folks are here does anyone have a favorite load for the Barnes 338/185 gr XLC bullet? Ought to be an awesome combination!

Back on topic, the 338-06 is a fine round. It will always suffer it seems from the shadow of what will it do that the 30-06 won't and why is it needed when there is a 35 Whelen.

THe Whelen question is easy, better bullet selection. Oh yeah I know there is a lot of 35 Cal bullets, I am not interested in the handgun bullets, if the reduced loads and fiddling around with them is your bag go for a Whelen. There are very few 275gr 35 cal bullets, that is the weight I would use if I was interested in the 35 cal. There is a much better selection of 338, 250 gr bullets.

In comparision to the 30-06 it is always said just use a heavy bullet in your 30-06. This for practical terms ends at 220 grs, there are no real heavy 30 cal hunting bullets still prodcued. I have been looking for a replacement for the Barnes original 250 gr bullets for quite a while, the are NON existant. So that arguement only goes so far, and the 250 gr 338 bullets I have a choice of spitzer and round nose bullets. With heavy 30's it was always round nose only.

Another interesting sidenote is that the 9.3x62 and the 338-06 are the energy winners on a 06 case. They both come in at 3500 lbs of muzzel energy with good loads. None of the other standard loads one the 06 case really break that 3500 lb barrier, the new Federal HE loads are producing a couple of 06 loads that break the 3500 lb mark, but I can't reproduce them on the reloading bench.

As to why not just get a 338 Win Mag, the main reason is recoil. I have both 30 mags and 375 H&H rifles, if I need that level of performance I use one of them. I want a heavier bullet and less recoil, my hunting conditions are either, under 75 yards, or over 400 yards, nothing in between generally. On the short shots I don't need the additional performance. On the real long stuff I want either a 30 mag or a bigger 338 mag, like the 340 Weatherby or the 338-378, and I don't want to pack those heavy rifles around in rough country, and they are even worse on recoil, and as I age I am unwilling to take the cross canyon shots anymore.

So why the 338-06, how about it works well for the type of game and condidtions being hunted, without excessive weight and recoil. Will it do anything the other big 06 case cartridges won't do, truth is not really, the 338, 35 Whelen, and the 9.3 are all about what floats your boat, the 338 is marginally the flatest shooting of the crowd, and the 9.3 is the heavywieght on bigger game. The difference between the three are marginal and there is little point argueing the small differences between them.

The 338-06 is a fine round, I am glad it has Saami spec finally, and I would like to see rifles chambered for it. It doesn't need to fight for identity crisis against the 338 Win Mag, following that train of thought why do we need a 30-06 when the 30 Mags beats it hands down? The simple answer is most N American hunters don't want or need that magnum level of performance.

For N American use ( outside Alaska and BC ) the 338 WIn Mag is a more specialised round in my mind, great elk, moose and bear rifle (probably "the" all around best) but a deer rifle they aren't. I know a lot of guys that hunt elk with them here in N Idaho, as soon as the elk tag is filled, they are packing a smaller rifle for deer, for the rest of the season.

I also think that many of the factory 338 Win Mags rifles are too light, by at least a 1/2 -3/4 lb. Kooteney hunts with one of the nicest factory 338's ever made, and I know Allen D uses a custom 338. I know the Model 70 Alaskan isn't a light weight , and I doubt Allen would have put together a featherweight 338, especialy knowing who he likes to build his rifles, I am sure his is properly proportioned. Most out of the box 338 Win mags aren't built like that. I have a friend that wanted a 338 and bought a Savage, and I helped him sight in that rifle. I would rather mud wrestle with a alligator than shoot that rifle, the first day we brought it back from the range I told him to sell it. It still sits in his collection, I bet it hasn't been shot in almost 8 years, its vicious. Another friend uses a Rem 700 in the same chambering, a little better than that Savage not much though, both are simply too light of rifle for the caliber.

Both would be better served with the 338-06 they hunt the same country I do and packing those kicking beasts of rifles for 100 yards shots makes no sense to me. I am not sure the guy with a Savage could actually hit an elk at 400 yds with that rifle, he has developed a nasty flinch with it and I don't see that being corrected. This is a definate lead sled on the bench rifle.

I think that rifle simply sums up why a 338-06 when there is the 338 Win Mag.

If I didn't have my 375 H&H rifles a 338 Win Mag would be an excellent addition to my rifles, and if the right rifle comes alone I will still probably get one, but its a definate overlap in my scheme of rifles.

Schromf, that was a great post, and a very and logical comparison. Very well thought out set of ideas!

The 338-06 has gone from being a good wildcat, to a legit factory cartridge, and now it's back to being the perhaps the most popular wildcat in the country, at least in the western U.S. and Canada. More than anything else, I think the 338-06 has suffered from a lack of imagination and proper promotion by the major arms and ammo companies. If it would have received the promotion it deserves from Olin, Remington, Hornady, or Federal, etc., and if said companies would have lit fires under some of their gunwriting stooges to better push it, the 338-06 might be a solidly established standard factory cartridge by now. Weatherby chambered it for a short time, but basically did nothing to promote their own product, and in my estimate they blew it.

Personally, I have no use for the 338-06. The 338 Win. Mag. outperforms it by some 200 fps. across the board, ammo is widely available everywhere -- even in Africa now, where it is well-established -- and the difference in recoil simply isn't all that great between the two. My 338 Win. Mag. is really well balanced, weighs 8.5 lbs. with a 24" bbl., and I don't mind packing it up any mountain.

To me, the .338 concept is all about heavy bullets, and that requires more powder capacity that the 30-06 case offers. Just as the 338 Win. Mag. offers just enough case capacity to get the job done properly with all bullets thru 250 grs. without undue powder consumption and thus recoil, so the 30-06 case is at its best as a 30-06 with bullets weighing between 150 and 180 grs. In fact, on a proportional basis, the 338 Win. Mag. and 30-06 parallel each other almost identically, and each one is perfectly balanced for its bore diameter and range of bullets.

AD

schromf,
Great post, that pretty much explains why I own one and am thinking of having another one made.

I personally have been duly impressed with the performance of my 338-06 on everything I have shot with it.

I certainly understand allen day's thinking also. But I feel that the 338-06 is more efficient than the 30-06 especially if you look at energy levels. I am getting 2850 fps with the Barnes 210gr TSX's out of my 338-06 and about 2725 with Nosler 210 Partitions. What won't those two loads work on in N. America or Africa for that matter? (excluding the big five)

I've said this before, I can't imagine even using a 250 gr bullet out of my 338-06 unless I was going after Cape Buffalo or the Coastal Brown Bear.

quote:

I for some reason or another can't get over how I like the feel of the Black Shadow.

Just a confession is not enough. I would be concerned.

quote:

Personally, I have no use for the 338-06. The 338 Win. Mag. outperforms it by some 200 fps. across the board

Allen,

No arguement on that, and like I said in my above posts if I wasn't so entrenched in 30 Mags and 375's I would certainly be a little more interested. Actually if I had to boil them down and get rid of rifles and only have one good rifle, I cannot think of a better choice than the 338 WIn Mag. Why? I am impressed by the 338 bore, its all about bullets, yes the selection isn't as wide as some calibers. But the bullets out there are all good, yes there are premiums and Noslers, but I can't think of one really bad bullet in a 250 gr 338. Yes some are better than others, but no really bad 250 grs, the Sierras are probably the worst and they are still a good bullet.

I figured your D Arcy was built right I couldn't see him putting together a rifle wrong. With scope, sling and ammo loaded are you at about 9 1/2 lbs? That would make sense to me just a tad under what a 375 fully outfitted weights. That is a good weight on any magnum really, when they get down around 8 lbs I think they built them too light.

Truth be known I think the 338 is a more flexible round for all of North America than the old 375 H&H. More versital when most N America game animals are factored in. There are only two animals in North America that I would rather have have a 375 H&H. One is bears in dark timber, up close and personal, and buffalo.
For all the rest of N American game I would rather have the 338 Win Mag I think. Certainly this is a premier fine big game round, I am not denying that.

A FYI I just checked on Winchesters site on weights on the Model 70's, The 30-06 is 7lbs 8 oz, and the 338 WIn Mags are 4 oz heavier at 7 lbs 12 oz. I figure these are about 6-8 oz too light, not the cartriges fault at all, just how most of the rifles are made, if the manufacturers built the 338's right recoil would be less of a concern. Personally I think most of the magnums currently produced are on the light side, the only light magnums I see much use for are under 7mm's, from 30 on up they are all across the board built too light for my tastes.

My take on all of these cartridges is that it's a personal thing. I started with the 358 Win for woods use up North and it did very well but some other round would have sufficed.

I have also participated in saying that this or that round is not optimum or practical but what the heck you can find the right bullet and make a lot of rounds do this or that if you use them well.

Now there is a 338 Federal! Good grief. I give up trying to buy them all. I am going to walk around with a couple of .308's in my shirt pocket for a while and see if they make do. This is a firm decision <---- subject to change at a whim.

quote:

I am going to walk around with a couple of .308's in my shirt pocket for a while and see if they make do. This is a firm decision <---- subject to change at a whim.

Schromf, my Echols 338 weighs 8.5 lbs. empty, and with a 2.5-8x Leupold on top. Add a sling and four rounds in the magazine and it weighs about 9 lbs.

I think the current factory rifles are engineered by technical paper-punchers and theorists, and not riflemen and hunters. I completely diagree with light 338s with 26" bbls. The 26" tube simply isn't necessary, in fact it's a liability, and the factories would be better off chopping 2" from the bbls. and adding that same volumn of metal, plus a bit more, to the diameter of the bbl.

Winchester's post-64 Model 70 in 338 Win. with 24" bbl. had exactly the right contour for a 338 Win. Mag., and that's what USRAC should go back to now. In so many ways, the folks who are building the current M70s are as clueless, inexperienced, and dull-witted as a collection of fence posts...........

AD

quote:

In so many ways, the folks who are building the current M70s are as clueless, inexperienced, and dull-witted as a collection of fence posts...........

Yup, my thoughts exactly.

Why they aren't chambering it in the African Express model beats me, they are making a 458 Win Mag, a different tube on that rifle and they would have it right, and at a reasonable price point for a mag.

What is being made by gun manufacturers nowdays makes me shake my head.

I agree about factories adding more weight to barrels and my 338/06 was 23", and my 338 WM I owned also was chopped from 24 (700 SS) to 22.5, and with the expansion ratio, either 338 can work well at 21-23".

I seen the pic of Allen D. He looks like he can take a little more recoil than my 180lb frame. The 338 WM is a great round, but I never liked being discriminated against with a magnum round having 3 vs 5 in the gun just because and I simply KNOW and like the performance of the WM version and feel confident that with a good partition even 210 it will kill all I need to 400 yds or so.

My preference in mine was a 225 partition as it shot 2670 in my 06 version-flatter than a 250 and better downrange smack than lighter bullets of equal construction. Just some added thoughts.

I don't think any animal decently hit will know what cartridge a 338 bullet came from whether the WM or '06, as they should be dead with any decent hit, at any sane range.

DB Bill, you dont get the338/06? ...I do

Some folk rarely shoot over 200yd and may do so in thicker/ varying terrain. They see the advantage of heavier bullets.
Yes ,you could down load a 338win( by the way,iam ver fond of that round).
But people probably like the 338/06 for the same reason people like the 9.3x62. It offers so much in most circumstances,withreduced recoil/rifle weight & handiness. NO round is perfect for everything all the time,but some suit some peoples needs verywell. I could live with a 338/06 and not complain too much. Personally though I am a fan of the 9.3x62.
Technology can play a part in things.
Look at the link below to see what bullet design can do to improve the performance of a STD.size case based cartridge. I know its the 9.3 but The same rule would apply to the 338/06 to some degree.
Such bullets are not a gimmick and still cheaper than buying another rig.

For busting elk in heavier country,I would like a light swinging 338/06 with say a GScustom 200gnHV over a std30/06200gn load(the .338/200GsHV@2900 is a great long range load as well) but still have the option of carrying afew heavier pill loadings to deal with bear(notspecific hunting them,but just to save my ass)

http://gsgroup.co.za/9362.html

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:

I really just don't get it...why build a .338/06?

DB Bill-

Before I answer, please understand this is not meant as a smart-assed comment...

Are you not trying to sell a sub-7 lb 450 Marlin bolt gun in the classifieds right now?

So let's turn it around... Why did you build it?

Because YOU "wanted" it, and that was all that mattered.

I'm sure a lot of guys are looking at your "Lightweight Thumper" and saying "Huh? Why?"

But you obviously felt a need or desire for it. Same with the 338-06.

And this is quoted from your ad.... "6) Finally I've found that a rifle, especially a custom rifle, need only please it's owner and it's done that."

Still wondering about the 338-06?

(I think you answered your own question with #6 there...)

Heck, if I had to justify all of my gun decisions, I would've quit years ago. Sometimes I just WANT "it". (BTW, yes, I built a 338-06 a couple years ago, and LOVE it! )

Yeha we gotta justify it to our wives (at least some do), lets not justify it to our own kind on these forums.

Mark D

Make it your best day!

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dobrenski:
Yeha we gotta justify it to our wives (at least some do), lets not justify it to our own kind on these forums.

So true!!