Hi all,

Let me get back to the always equally difficult topic of perceived recoil and recoil tolerance.

I was on the range yesterday shooting a 6,5x55SE Mauser, and a Lakelander bolt rifle in 9,3x62 - and of course the 9,3mm bruised my shoulder.
Now, I'm exceptionally sensitive to recoil (in my opinion), and although my father now minds the recoil of the 9,3mm not at all, I dislike it.
To make things more difficult, the old 8mm has pretty much come to the end of its life's service (after 90 years I think I can allow it to be retired), so I'm playing with the idea of a new rifle.
The prime candidate is a double in 9,3x74R, but if the recoil feeling is the same as on the 9,3x62 bolt then it's a no-go.
Perhaps a better fitting stock and more effective recoil pad would do the trick, but I have not had the chance to try out anything else but this one rifle yet.

Having shot the 6,5mm I daresay it feels like a smallbore rifle, and also the .308 feels like a toy to me.
Thinking that the 8mm feels "good" i.e. not too hard to me, but the 9,3mm exceeds my tolerance level, are we talking sense if I think of the .338 and .358?
What in your view is the recoil level of the .338 Federal, and .358 Winchester?
Would you estimate the recoil to be about on the par with the 8mm Mauser (8x57); less; or more?
If I think of the recoil of the 8mm, it's on the upper end of what I like. Things may be made worse due to the gun being the m/1895 Winchester whose felt recoil is notoriously bad.

My main quarry is Nordic Elk and wild boar, i.e. big! To a lesser extent it'll be roe deer and whitetail deer, as well; but these often mix with the bigger ones so I'm not overly keen to go down to the 6,5mm or 7mm class.
I know them to be good calibers, indeed, but I do consider them to be on the light side especially against boar which dislikes you shooting him...

- Lars

I am pretty recoil tolerant. A soft recoil pad like the limb saver and a little adjustment of the stock can make a tremendous difference. I had a 416 that I originally had a hard butt plate on. My gunsmith put on a good limbsaver and took a rasp to the stock to make it fit me. Before work, I had to think my way through the shot, after Tim worked on it, I could shoot 20 shots off the bench.
I have found the the two doubles in 9.3 and one drilling, that I have owned, have been a little rough on the bench, better off sticks. They tend to be a joy to carry and come to the shoulder nicely, but 20 rounds at the range are about my limit in them. My 375, on the other hand fits a little better. I can shoot it as long as my wallet can stand it.
The 358 recoil is a bit more than the US factory 8mm. I would put them closer to 8mm Norma ammo. I doubt you would notice the differenct, IMO. Both are a good bit less than the 9.3, especially if you have a well fitted stock with a good pad. No experience with the 338's. Just had a bunch of 8 mm's and 35's and over.
Good Luck
Bfly

If it's a game gun then you can practice with it offhand once you have it zeroed. No use target shooting with a big bore that is no fun. A good recoil pad should take out the pain and turn it into a push. On my 45-120 "nitro" I have the thickest kick-eez pad they offer. I believe it is 1.5 inches thick. It turns what would have been a horrifying experience with the metal buttplate into what feels like a punch by a big fat lady. All the force is there but it's squishy.

if you're happy with your old rifle, why don't you just buy a new 8x57?
for something bigger a .358Win would be my pick
in a double i would go for a 8x57IRS

Hey Lars, If you would consider "Reloading", you could get the larger(more recoil) cartridge and use Starting Loads until you accustom yourself to the higher Recoil.

A buddy of mine wanted to Hunt Elk very much. He had read enough that he wanted a fairly large diameter Bullet - 0.338" - but had owned a 338WinMag which beat him like a drum. He was convinced that he wanted no part of another one.

So, he swapped around and got a 338-06. He began reloading for it and in about 3 months was at the Safe MAX load level, because he became accustomed to it.

One night I was flipping through a Manual and noticed his 338-06 MAX Loads were right at the Starting Loads for a 338WinMag. Huuummm. Mentioned it to my buddy and now he was interested in a 338WinMag. He swapped his 338-06 and got a really nice Stainless and Synthetic 338WinMag. Moved the scope to the new rifle, made some Starting Loads and though he anticipated the worst, smiled after the first shot. Now he is up to a Safe MAX in the 339WinMag.

It does have a nice R3 Recoil Pad. And any heavy recoil rifle can benefit from one of the newer Recoil Pads. The Softer Recoil Pads do not seem to shoot quite as accurately as the Firmer Pads, but plenty accurate enough for a Big Game rifle, well under a Minute of Angle.
-----

So, I'd recommend you get what you want and Reload for it.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen:
if you're happy with your old rifle, why don't you just buy a new 8x57?

Because I am happy with the old rifle as such...

But I get your point; and this is certainly a consideration especially as there are plenty of good makes that chamber in 8x57.

I use a 9,3x74R double quite a bit.
While it is not a bench gun I do not find the recoil in the field to be a problem.

A 9,3 double would be perfect for the hunting you have described.

But if you shoot at the range a lot then consider an 8x57 double. With heavy bullets it is a good killer too.

quote:

I use a 9,3x74R double quite a bit.
While it is not a bench gun I do not find the recoil in the field to be a problem.

Agree.
In the field you barely feel any recoil at all; but on the range you do which makes practising difficult.
In fact, my friend says he can barely fire two shots with his .416 Rem Mag on the range, but in the field he shoots it like his .308 Win.

quote:

But if you shoot at the range a lot then consider an 8x57 double. With heavy bullets it is a good killer too.

It is for sure!
That was another idea of mine. Even better if one obtains switch barrels in 8mm and 9,3mm. Then the smaller one can e used for practice, and the heavier in the field.
Of course the 8mm is such a dandy caliber that there is no reason not to use it in the field, as well!

i'm not very recoil tollerant. i once had a 7 mag that i shot about a box full at the bench at one sitting just before deer season started and got bruised up pretty good. when deer season rolled around, i really didn't even want to have to shoot the rifle, even knowing that you don't feel recoil in the field like you do at the bench.
one thing i found to help minumise the butt- kicking at the bench, is to set your rest up high, so that your head and torso are relatively straight up, just like you would be standing, instead of being a little crouched down into the gun. the more erect position doesn't let the shot pound into you nearly as bad. it works for me anyways....

First while I believe bigger is better only if you can shoot it well, bullet placement is far more important than power, if you doubt that read WDM Bell's writing he killed one heck of a bunch of elephant with his .275 rigby (7x57).

I think a 270 is plenty for elk, so that's an easy problem. For dangerous game you've got a lower limit, but you have options: Mercury recoil reducers and muzzle brakes, but I wouldn't do that to a double rifle. For a double, I would just load it down a few hundred feet per second, make sure the stock fits and have an nice Pachmayr recoil pad put on it, and don't shoot it off the bench! Those PAST shoulder pads help a bit too.

Regards,

Chuck

Lars,

I'm not particularly recoil affected and I've shot many Boomers but I sure do have respect for rifles that deal out more than a civil dose.

There's much you can do as mentioned above to reduce "felt" recoil, both physically, pads, stocks, stocks, etc. and with technique; (how you shoot) & Practice. The less you shoot the more sensitive you'll become IMO.

Personally, I think you've already got it figured out; either a new 8x57 with modern accoutraments or the same in a .358 Winchester. The .358 Win. would be my choice.

Have fun!

quote:

Personally, I think you've already got it figured out; either a new 8x57 with modern accoutraments or the same in a .358 Winchester. The .358 Win. would be my choice.

In Germany? That's an interesting one, Gerry!
You may have answered this (I've dome some searches on the .358 Win on the forums), but do you have one? If so, how do you like? What's your bullet choice and what kind of velocities do you load it to?

- Lars

Lars,

Sadly I do not have a .358 Winchester. I am though; actively lurking in the Left Hand Community here on AR, gleaning all I can about the new L/H'd Ruger Short Actions. Because if I can obtain one it WILL morph itself into a .358 Winchester posthaste! With a 20" medium stiff barrel & a Red Dotted 1.5-4.5x26mm scope on it. IMO the perfect Fairy Wand Red Deer & Wild Boar smacker (with the right bullet, like a .358 200 gr. Hornady RN).

I have a German gunsmith who always asks if I have any American Mllitary Pals stationed here who have Browning Lever Actions in .358 Winchester For Sale. He claims he can sell all of these he can lay his hands on. All for Drive Hunting.

I have shot quite a few .358 Winchesters; I find the recoil quite tolerable and the cartridge a miniature Rockect Launcher, a solid performer wth the right bullets.

At the moment the upper end of my battery is a semi-custom 9.3x62 L/H Zastava bolt-action which is my primary Drive Hunt rifle, a 9.3x74R Drilling & 2 .375H&H's; one a L/H'd Winchester Model 70 and the other a .375H&H standard contour barrel for my Blaser R93. I've used them all for Drive Hunting, High Seats & Stalking. While I don't consider myself a John Wayne by any stretch of the imagination I can shoot these quite comfortably and use them all regularly without even considering any potential recoil factor.

There are others out there but here is one recoil table you can use as a reference.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

By your statement

quote:

Having shot the 6,5mm I daresay it feels like a smallbore rifle, and also the .308 feels like a toy to me.
Thinking that the 8mm feels "good" i.e. not too hard to me, but the 9,3mm exceeds my tolerance

your problem leads me to say that you should try to make your 9.3 more comfortable before buying a new rifle regardless of the caliber. Bad fitting rifles kick so much harder then what they should... if that makes any sense. Exhaust the options you have on hand first.

Here are a couple things to think about and try.

1) Is it the bruising that is bothering you or the jolt of the recoil? If it is the bruising then try shooting with a past recoil shield or some foam rubber between the but and your shoulder. If it is just the bruising then a nice soft pad might help.

2) LOP. It might be short. Many shoot big bores that are 1/4" longer LOP then their "regular" guns. I prefer this. It sounds like the 9.3 might be short and getting a running start at your shoulder.

3) Weight makes a huge difference. What did the 9.3 weight?

4) Shooting style is important. Lots of guys shoot off the bench without even holding on to the forend. They also shoot with a very loose grip on the forend when shooting off hand. Make sure you hold on tight and pull the rifle tight into your shoulder.

Lars,

I'm not very recoil sensitive but don't like the recoil of the 338 Win mag. I don't have a 9.3X62 so don't have any experience with that caliber but have a 375 H&H and find that round fine to shoot as it's more a push than a jab like the 338.

Why not the 30-06 with 200 gr. or heaver bullets? It's pretty close to the 8X57 in power and recoil.

The 338-06 was also mentioned and I really like mine, but it is pretty much a reloading proposition as almost no one loads for it. Also probably no one in Finland

The 338-06 duplicates the 318 Westley Richards which had/has a very good reputation in Africa and while not a 500 yard round would be pretty good out to 250+ or maybe 300.

Roi

after reading all of this thread, I have to agree with 510Wells here or Hot Core...

handloading you can tame any cartridge until you are comfortable to shoot it...

I read 30/06 here by your input... with a 180 or my favorite, 220 grain bullets, you can pretty much take any game that is traditionally hunted in Finland..

when you say Elk I don't think most folks are aware you are speaking of moose..

I own a 338/06, a 338 Mag, several 30/06s...
I'd take an 06 over a 338 Federal or a 358 Win, and once again I am talking a good 220 grain bullet..

Another vote for 7 X 57. roger

Oopsie!
A lot of comments here - thanks to all; and let me tackle a couple of them!

Gerry: You're my kind of man!

Smallfry and GeoffM24:
You're both SPOT ON!
The 9,3 of mine has too short a stock, and I always get hit in my upper lip by my thumb when I fire it. More LOP needed. It's not as bad when shooting offhand, but pretty much all other positions (bench, sitting, kneeling) give me trouble.
Also the recoil pad is very old and rock-solid. A new one will be fitted once I get to it. While I'm at it, a piece of wood inbetween the pad and stock would give more LOP.
The angle of the stock is pretty good, styled a bit like the Weatherbys and it is like Boddington claims: it does move away from your face when you fire.
This is also why I'd like to try another 9,3 to feel the difference before ruling out a perfectly good caliber.
Haven't weighted the 9,3 but it's on the heavy side. The stock is sturdy.

510Wells:

quote:

The 338-06 was also mentioned and I really like mine, but it is pretty much a reloading proposition as almost no one loads for it. Also probably no one in Finland

But, my good man, where is your sense of adventure?
Incidentally, before I knew about the .338-06, I had "developed" it in my mind and I still think it'd be an excellent caliber. That said, the 8mms will do the same, and with readily available ammo in Finland. (Good job of you knowing it's in Europe and not Wisconsin, Roi.)
Frankly I don't see why Sako/Federal didn't introduce the .338-06 instead of the .338Fed (.338-08). I think it would have been commercially more viable; and would have laid a good ground for the smaller sibling at a later stage. But I guess Art Aplhin beat them to it...
So far from a bad choice. Also the .30-06 with heavy bullets, or the modern monometals like Lapua Naturalis are a good proposition. But the .30-06 is so banal...
So many guns; so little money!

Seafire2:
Moose, yes.
Matter of terminology I suppose, but I speak of Scandinavian moose (Alces Alces) which is bigger than North American elk, although not quite as big as its Canadian/Alaskan sibling.



- Lars

I own a Chapuis 9.3X74R. It has a sharp recoil off the bench. I dislike the rifle as it weighs now. I have a friend who has an Chapuis and he added weight to the stock and it tamed the recoil as far as I am concerned. I also own a Bernardelli Express 2000 in 8X57 JRS. The recoil of that rifle is more tolerable than the 9.3X74R.

My favorite rifle is a 10 lbs 450/400 3 inch. The recoil does not bother me at all. I consider myself to be recoil sensitive (recoil wuss). Felt recoil is a very individual affair.

I have a 358 win and love it
As far as recoil it shoves ya some but not much
I like to shoot 250 gr Hornadys
I killed one elk so far with the 358 one shot and game over it has also killed numerous whitetails...that little cartridge kills real good
Seems to me that the 338 fed is trying to reinvent something that has been around for quite some time
My rifle is a model 70 win compact with a 21 " Pac-nor ss barrel a real handy carrying piece

Most of my rifles can eventually whittle me down at the bench, but I can shoot about anything off hand, especially when hunting. The .338WinMag is a veritable pussycat compared to a 12GA firing 3.5" magnums with 2.5 oz of shot.

I am VERY recoil sensitive and have some experience with the 9.3x74r ( which is my favorite African Caliber although I have taken very little African game with it). I like it so much it is the personalized number on my Mustang license plates. I have had several Valmet O/U's in this caliber and found them to be not unpleasant to shoot. I had mercury reducers in their stocks. I had a Chapuis UGEX in this caliber and while it was accurate beyond ordinary it was one of the most viscious recoiling rifle I have ever fired. It was also the quickest SxS I've ever had. It was light beyond belief and I really never tried to improve it. Currently have a No1 and while it is not what I would call pleasant it is certainly endurable. The Chapuis just plain hurt to shoot which is the reason I sold it. As I said I had a scope on it and it had superb accuracy from the bench. Lest you think I don't shoot big bores I have no problem with 375H&H's,416 Rigby's and 470 Nitro's. Recoil is certainly a perceived thing and everyone has a different perception of what constitutes excessive recoil.