I have a pre 64 Winchester 88 in 308 I have had for 20 years or so, it has always shot good groups 1 1/2 or thereabouts. I had not shot it in a couple of years and had mounted a new scope, accuracy is terrible 4, 5 inches at best.

I have checked and double checked the rings and mounts, tried two scopes just to be sure, looked at the crown with as powerful a magnifying glass as I have 10X or so. I can find no problems. The gun has been cleaned good and the screws are nice and tight. The only thing I can think of is it possible to have a crown problem I can't see? or could I have a copper problem? If so what is a good product to remove copper and not damage my bore?

I am at loss..

Should I have posted this under gun smithing?

If you have cleaned the rifle vigarously, without a muzzle protector, I would suspect damage to the crown.

remington33, if you have not changed other components, i.e. a different load, or a new box/case of ammo, then I would suspect that there is an issue with your rifle not liking the cleaning of the bore. I have had/seen rifles that took as many as forty shots after a really thorough cleaning to settle back into pre cleaning accuracy. This is not that rare, some rifles just like a 'dirty' bore.

If you haven't changed the ammo you are shooting, then I would try shooting 5 shot groups, one target at a time, giving the barrel enough time to cool between shots/groups, and see how accuracy progressed over say 40 rounds of ammo. If it is getting progressively more accurate, then you are on the right trail. If it degrades in accuracy, then I would be thinking of other culprits. If the only change in your rifle was the scope, and you have tried two other known to be good scopes, than I would probably think it was the bore issues as above, or something else that was loose. I might try putting the old scope on just to see if accuracy 'came back'.

It is incredible how different certain lots of ammo can be from another, and I have actually seen significant accuracy differences from lot to lot (even case to case) but not typically as severe as you have described, but that can be an issue.

Good Luck-- keep us posted as to how the sleuthing out of the problem progresses.

Thanks Fish,

it is the same bullets from the same 1000 I bought at Midway and powder bought the same day IMR4064,

I have the barrel soaking as I write this and if time will allow will try again soon. I am going to put a Leupold 2X7 on that was just returned from the factory in "as new " condition. But I doubt it is the scope.

Never had a rifle start to be so bad just out of the blue so to say.

Am I correct in thinking you have a wood stock on the rifle? Have you moved residences, stored the rifle in an extra dry location (like the same room the water-heater or furnace is in) or, vice versa, had it in an area more damp than where you used to keep it?

Obviously I am asking these questions because I suspect bedding changes due to either wood moisture content change, or just plain age.

As you already know, wood is a "living", ever-changing, stock material, constantly either gaining moisture content or losing it, unless kept in a pretty well controlled environment. Even glass bedding might not completely prevent wood movement, swelling, or shrinking, due to those moisture content changes. It doesn't take much of a move of the stock contact with the barreled action to completely bugger accuracy.

Very good points by Canuck, it does in fact only take a small amount of stock contacting the barrel where it didn't before to throw things into a tizzy.

remington33,

What bullet weight and powder charge are you using?

My personal opinion is the "new" scope is faulty or the bedding off do either to screw tension or warpage of the stock. All this assuming thet the crown is in reasonable shape as you pointout.

Good luck as the 88's are nice rifles.

Cor-lokt's 150 grain IMR4064 about 48 grains or so it is the max in the 47th Lyman manual. We have been using this load in this gun and another 88, vintage 59 with no problems for almost two decads. I shot a nice under 1 1/2 three shot group with the other 88 same load and bullet. It is a hunting load for deer, elk etc. This gun has ate this bullet load combo great for a long time. Something new is afloat or a new scope is bad.

rem, Please keep us posted on the progress. I'll bet on the scope factor as rifles which see normal use and care rarely go bad so suddenly without extenuating circumstances.

Well, there is no doubt that some % of all new scopes ARE bad, but that is not difficult to check. Simply put the new scope on another rifle which IS currently shooting well, and see how it does with the scope in question. If it continues to shoot well, it's not the scope.

Or, if you want to spend some bucks, go over to BR.com and look in the ads section for the scope checker. (I have one, but don't recall who made it.) They are about $35 dollars, or were a couple of years ago.

With the scope checker, you can put a known good scope and a suspected scope on the same rifle at the same time. Adjust the suspected scope 'til it is pointing at the same place on the target as the good scope. Then you fire shots while aiming with the good scope and note where the crosshairs in the suspected scope are after each shot. If the crosshairs appear to be moving in the scope being checked, then you know things are awry in there, and by about how much.

what type of sights were you using to shoot those 1.5" groups prior to the instalation the new optics?

quote:

what type of sights were you using to shoot those 1.5" groups prior to the instalation the new optics?

A Leupold VXII 3X9 that is on a Savage .223 and I am not perfect but with that scope and gun I have a nice 9/16 five shot group.

OK back to the 88. Took it out today with a just returned fron the factory Leupold 2X7. Put over 20 rounds thru and finally after about 20 got it close to the bulls eye. Shot the 22 for 20 minutes or so letting the 308 cool completely.
I then ran four thru it without adjusting anything. Shots ran in a straight line up and down or very close but they were at least 6 inches apart, top to bottom. Two were close together one about 3 inches down and the last one 6. So apparently the gun is shooting lower each shot as the barrel warms up.

The way a 88 is made I am not sure what I can do to improve. I don't think it can be free floated and I am not sure I want to glass bed a pre 64 and ruin the value. So at the moment I am at a loss just exactly what I am going to do.

This gun used to give me nice 1 1/2 inch 3 shot groups which is fine for a deer, elk rifle, but ths is not OK.

go back to the original sighting system and appologize to her for giving another girl her favorite dress.

The M88 and M100 were both bad about having the Termite Food stocks "crack" in the thin portion. It is sometimes difficult to detect. You might try removing the stock and "twist" it a bit in a good light to see if you can detect a hairline crack.
---

Since you are using 150gr "PSP" Remington Bullets, it could be that simple though. I like them myself and have a good many of them on hand as well as the 165gr PSPs. But, within a specific Lot you can find all kinds of variances. I use them for Fire Forming and Off-Hand practice. Occasionally they will produce excellent groups and then they can open right up. Sometimes you can see a large difference by weight-sorting a group, but without a Junke(SP?) Machine, if the Bullet is unbalanced, you just wouldn't know.

Due to that, I'd recommend you get some Sierra MatchKing bullets to do your Testing with. They are ALWAYS consistent and you can rule the Bullet out. If they scatter, then there is something else wrong. If they don't, you will know the problem is within that Lot of PSPs.

Best of luck to you.

I know it's been mentioned here already but I'd take a very close look at the crown. I had one of these in the shop a few months ago and the owner had tried all sorts of things to shrink the groups--bedding, scopes etc. When I looked at the crown with a magnifying glass I noticed some irregularites so I used a piloted reamer to dress the crown. He now reports groups are back into the 1 1/2" range.

Thanks to everyone that replied, and I got her figured out I do believe.

KSTEPHENS I just lifted her original dress and did a little bit underneath. Sorry guys I couldn't resist.

I looked careful at the way a 88 is attached to the stock and got an idea. The way the gun was shooting it was like warming was a problem with the stock touching a barrel, but a 88 is made=with the barrel against the stock from the factory. So I got a few of tiny thin copper washers that would fit perfectly between the screw that holds the barrel to the stock. I only used two and that was enough to raise the barrel just enough off the stock to slid a new folded dollar bill between the metal and wood. That was all it took.

First shot hit the bulls eye 2nd was inch and a half to the right, then one about a inch to the left then she really settled in. I let her cool and then shot a clip full, four, and have a nice 13/16" four shot group right where it should be just above the bullseye on a hunting rifle.. Same bullets/powder as before but that is the best group I have ever shot with this gun.

I am a very happy camper at the moment as I wanted very much to keep this gun but it needed to shoot OK.
It has been a good rifle until this incident and I noticed today still has a bloody finger print on the stock I left after the last deer it took.

Rem33,

Thanks for keeping us posted as to your success and the cure required. I guess the finish has reached a point where with Global warming and all that some of the piss that Al Gore has been directing into the wind vaporized and found it's way into your stock. Damn sorry to hear about that, but mighty pleased to hear about the cure.