Hello first time poster here . I was loading 308 all brass was WCC 06 , all primers were Winchester LR . powders used were IMR-4350 / Power Pro 2000mr / Viht N-540 / Viht N-550 . bullets used were 190gr smk , 178gr A-MAX , 165gr SST . Yes I know the powder and bullets are not what most would use but It was all I could find at the time . I've had IMR 4064 / IMR 4895 , 175gr smk on back order for 8 months now and just wanted to start shooting again and was not going to buy factory loads after investing in as much reloading suplys as I have already .

I just started reloading a couple weeks ago . I went out and shot my reloads for the first time on Friday . out of 37 5 shot loads worked up from 4 different powders and 3 different bullets . I had a few heavy bolt lifts 10 to 15 out of 195 rounds fired. Some at the lowest charge and none at the bigger charges in that lot . Some in the middle none at the low or high end of the loads . Anyways The heavy bolt lifts were comimg at all different places and I was not able to get a read as to why I was getting them .

What is causing these issues . If you can be specific it would help . I know it's a pressure sign but why ? what's going on ? All the cases were FL sized using Redding die . My heads space gage did not arive untill after I went to the range . After getting home from the range the new heads space gage had been delivered that day while I was at the range . I cheked a few of the FL sized cases I had not loaded yet and say they were a little short . Then when comparing the sized unfired brass with the fired brass that had heavy bolt lifts . I noticed the fired brass was over the max headspacing .

Can brass that is slightly under minimum headspacing cuase the heavy bolt lifts I has getting ? Could it of made the case expand more then it is intended to and then not bounce back to the point it would be easy to extract . I have since adjusted my FL sizing die to size right in between the max and the min of my head space gage .

Should I try those loads again that had heavy bolt lift's with the brass at the correct head space or is that load no good period ?

I guess I'll leave it there for now and see what you guy have to say .

Thanks Metal

Well, first thing I'd ask would be what powders with which bullets?
Charge weights of the powder(s) used with what bullets would probably be next.

I loaded all bullets with all powders from low to high charge . I did not load the 190gr smk with the power pro because I did not have data for it . I use the Hordady and Seirra books . I had 36-ish different 5 shot loads

39.5gr Viht n-540 pushing a 190gr smk had 2 heavy bolt lifts of five shots fired

36.5gr Viht N-540 pushing 178gr A-MAX had 1 heavy bolt lift out of 5 shots
38gr same powder & bullet no issue
39.5gr same powder & bullet no issue
41gr same powder & bullet heavy bolt lift on 3 of 5 shots fired

46gr Power Pro 2000mr pushing a 178gr A-Max had heavy bolt lift on all 5 rounds fired and very flat primers . The charge was 3 tenths of max load .

43gr Viht N-550 pushing a 178gr A-MAX had 1 heavy bolt lift out of 5 shots fired . the lot was slightly compressed .

The next load was the first shots of the day and for some reason I have incomplete notes . I only have notes on 2 of the 4 different charges .
42gr Viht N-550 pushing 190gr smk had slight trouble on bolt lift . Note do not say how many out of the 5 shots fired .
43gr Viht N-550 pushing 190gr smk had heavy bolt lift . Notes do not say how many of the 5 shots fired .

Now I understand the heavier charges showing pressure signs . What I'm trying to figure out is do I scrap all of those loads or do I try them again with the proper headspace

This is a pic of how far off my FL sized cases were I have no way to measure but they were below minimum

Irrespective of head space etc, if you can close the bolt and fire a cartridge it will fire form to the chamber dimensions and should extract easily if pressures are normal and the chamber has no rough spots. A short headspaced chamber will show up when trying to chamber a minimum re-sized case where the bolt will be stiff to close. Nevertheless my first point holds.

Stiffness in lifting the bolt after firing a cartridge is a high pressure sign. Some cases with the same load my not show this pressure and extract normally as they may have thicker walls or adhere to the chamber walls better than others. For this reason make sure you're cases do not have any lube left on them. I roll my re-sized cases in a handy towel soaked (not too much) in white spirit leaving them clean and shiny and completely de-greased.

Check the method of weighing or throwing your powder charges - is this accurate and consistent.

quote:

I was loading 308 all brass was WCC 06

M-G,

Now this is an assumption since I'm not sure of the origin of your brass; but WCC sounds to me like Mil Surp.

If so, you've no way or knowing in what or where it was originally fired. While I may be aging myself here, Military Surplus brass was in my day (don't use it anymore) often fired from M60 Machine Guns that were notorious for questionable headspace.

Try some "civilian" brass; Remchester, whatever and see if the issue goes away.

Good Luck.

I'm confused on what you're calling head space. Are you talking about the length of the case?
Cases that are short compared to the book length are no problem. Cases that are too long may cause a problem. Once you have fire formed all of your brass, you want to trim them to a uniform length of the shortest case. Assuming that would be shorter than the book says.
As posted, you don't know what weapon your milsup brass was fired in so it would be best to full length resize it for your first firings.

quote:

Are you talking about the length of the case?
Cases that are short compared to the book length are no problem.

I FL ( full length )sized all the WCC 06 cases I used . When I say short head space I don't mean short OAL . It's the length from the shoulder to the base that is short . That is what the headspace gage measures . The headspace gage I used has a max and a min the case can be . All my cases were below minimum .

( If so, you've no way or knowing in what or where it was originally fired. While I may be aging myself here, Military Surplus brass was in my day (don't use it anymore) often fired from M60 Machine Guns that were notorious for questionable headspace.

Try some "civilian" brass; Remchester, whatever and see if the issue goes away. )

Does the fact I full length sized all the brass change your answer at all . I thought once you resize it , it should not matter what gun fired it last ? FWIW I weighed all the brass and only loaded the brass that was 176gr to 177gr . There was only 1gr difference between all 190 pieces of brass . I did dot do a volume test .

This is what I would do.

1. FL size the brass.
2. Trim to uniform length.
3. Select a single bullet/powder combination.
4. Load 5 rounds using the mfg's recommended start load.
5. Increase the powder charge in 5 round lots in .5gr increments until
reaching the maximum listed load.

Seat the bullets to the specified max OAL listed in the load data. Loaded rounds should chamber easily with very little (if any) resistance in your rifle.

Fire for effect and note the results. If you still have hard bolt lift I would suspect the mil-surp brass would be the issue. Also check the primers. Flattened or cratered primers can be an indicator of excessive pressure.

FWIW, I've been handloading for more than a few years and have never used, or found it necessary to use, a cartridge head space gauge.

Criagster : Thats pretty much what I did, just in a grander scale . I just had 4 powders so I took one of the pwders and one of the bullets and loaded like you do then did it again with the next powder light to heavy load . some lots I had 4 different loads others I had 6 different loads with the same bullet and powder . Only difference was powder charge . the range is 40 miles from my house and did not want to just work on one powder bullet combo at ma time so I did them all . Just at first I now will only work on the two that grouped well with no pressure signs .

I'm just making sure with this thread that all the others that had pressure signs are no good and there was not something else I could correct and try them again . It's looking more and more like I need to give up on all the loads that had heavy bolt lift and move on with the few that grouped well and had NO pressure signs

With out getting to deep in to the COAL the books recommend . I have a very VERY short throat in my Savage FCP-K . The longest I can load the 178 A-MAX is 2.760 . If I load to 2.800 like the book says should be OK the bullet gets jammed in the rifling and my bolt gets stuck . I had evrybody on another forum telling me it should chamber no problem at 2.800 so I loaded a dummy round to that OAL and forced the bolt closed . Needless to say I needed a malet to get the bolt back and the round extracted .

Hmm , maybe I should have told you guys about that sooner . The fact I have to seat the bullets deeper . Now I have less case space and that could add to the pressure issues .

To start , load the rounds to the OAL shown in the book . You can tweek the bullet seating depth down the road. As long as you stay with published load data and the specified OAL, you should't have pressure issues. One other suggestion, if I could find either new or once fired commercial brass, I'd use it rather than the WCC stuff. 80 miles round trip with the same results would suck indeed. Good luck, let us know how it works out.

I can't load to the OAL the book says . I have a real hard time closing the bolt because the bullet is being jammed in to the lands/rifling . It's my understanding having the bullet pressed and or jammed in to the lands ups the pressure as well . I was trying to keep the bullet just off the lands . To do so I need to seat the bullet deep enough to get a OAL of 2.760 . The books say 2.800 is what is recommended

I do have a bunch of Federal brass from GMM rounds I fired . I'll load some up in those and see how it goes . I'm going to load some up this weekend and go shoot sometime next week . I'll let you know how it goes

woo hoo just found and ordered some IMR-4064 and IMR-4895 . It's on now . I'll wait to shoot till I can load some of those as well . Should be here early next week

on a side note : What works best for slow burning powder and what is best for fast burning powder ? Is there a general rule to this . Slow powders for long barrels ? What pushes a heavy bullet better slow or fast burning powder . I was thinking all my powders I used are slow burning and all my bullets were on the heavy side for 308 . I have a 24" barrel so it's long-ish but no Palma barrel .

I would verify and re-verify the OAL. I would shorten the cartridge to 2.74 to be sure you are not close to the lands. Even Redding dies can allow that much of a difference.

Let us know how it goes with the new powders.

heavy bolt lift is too much pressure 99.9% of the time!!

WCC 60 brass like all milsurp brass it very thick and will cause high pressure if loaded with a standard load that would work fine in WW brass, but with less powder you will get the same velociy as a rule for the same reason, you have more pressure..Try the same load in WW brass in your gun and see what happens.

sometime a tight bench rest like chamber will cause the same problems, that usually is the result of a over educated Gun Smith or his association with bench resters! This problem can be in the neck as well as the shoulder...Bench rest chambers are not for hunters..Also at what point of use/wear was the reamer when your rifle was chambered as that can also effect the chamber in the same way. I have seen this in factory rifles where they tried to get as many chambering from the reamer as possible.

It's always easier to make all these determinations if one has a chamber cast to start with. That usually tells the story.

Yes it can. I've seen it several times. We've had primers so flat there was no seam between the primer and primer pocket, with factory ammo, but with a chamber with excessive headspace. Bolt was very hard to lift.
Had the barrel set back proper and issue went away.

Milsurp brass can cause problems and will cause higher pressures with a load for comercial brass. Changing brands of brass can do the same thing. Now having said that you may not have pressure problems at all. You may have bolt thrust problems. If a cartridge has excess headspace or is oily or the chamber is too smooth you can have hard bolt lift after firing. If your brass was shot in a machinegun or even a M-14 the shoulder could have been pushed back to cause excess headspace. Also you say you just started reloading. How are you adjusting your sizing die? How much and what kind of lube are you using? Lube can dent the shoulder of a case and push it back to have excess headspace. When a cartridge is fired with excess headspace the firing pin pushes the case forward into the chamber before it fires. When the cartridge fires the neck expands to grip the chamber and the case stretches to hit the boltface. When you go to open gun it binds because the bolt is locked back against the lugs. The same thing happens with an oily case but kind of in reverse. The case can't grip the chamber walls so it pushes hard against the boltface on firing and the shoulder moves forward blinding the lugs again. The 308 is one of the easiest cartrdges to load and it hard to screw up. I'd start by using new factory brass sized in your die adjusted to NOT touch the shellholder. Then I would use a recommended below maximun charge that is weighed NOT thrown by a powder measure. Seat bullets so they do not touch rifling and use standard primers. Clean your chamber with a dry pactch and clean your ammo with a paper towel with maybe a little alcohol on it to remove lube from cases. If you have issues with hard bolt lift then it may be something like and out of square boltface causing your problems. Try to eliminate all the unknowns first.

Update-ish , couple things I've done and found out . The heavy bolt lift is from the cases getting stuck in the chamber . The cases are getting stuck at the main body of the case . It is not the neck that is getting stuck . By heavy bolt lift I mean the bolt takes twice as much effort to lift up but does move pretty smooth and when I get to the top of the lift it takes quite a bit of torque to pop it open that last little bit . What I found is happening is the case is stuck in the chamber and the bolt is rotating but the case is not . Thats were I get the heavy bolt lift . Now at the top of the bolt lift , maybe 1/4" to 3/8" of bolt lift left the bolt is trying to pull the case out of the chamber at the same time it is rotating . Because the case is stuck it makes that last little bit much harder to lift then it should be .

I'm using Hornady oneshot spray lube and yes I have learned i'm getting to much lube on the shoulders and because of that I'm getting incansistant case sizing . . the difference at times is as much as 6 to 8 thousandths . Most of the cases are with in a couple thousandths but there is an extreme spread . I have found that sizing them twice gets me the most consistency . I pull the press arm down then back up and right away I pull it all the way back down .

I measure each load using a Redding #2 scale . I have check weights and a digital scale to make sure the loads are correct . I do not throw any powder yet . I'm not making enough rounds of the same charge yet for that to work .

The picture above that show my case in the gauge . The case is a little short by about 3 or 4 thousandths . That is the size of most of my cases . The gauge has a max and a min size the case can be . If I get with in a 2 or 3 thousandths of max . I get a tight bolt close . I can feel that the case is to long when closing the bolt . Because of this I've been OK with the cases bing a little short . SROSE : are you saying my short cases could be causing the cases the expand to much and stick to the chamber ?

I'm going to the range sat and sun to work this stuff out . I have loaded duplicate rounds that I was having problems with that were loaded in the WCC brass but this time they're loaded in Federal brass . I also got my new powders so I loaded duplicate rounds of those loads as well one set in the WCC brass the other in Federal brass .

I also received my chronograph so I'll have that info as well to work with this weekend .

Thanks for all the help and if you guys have any thing else you think I should do before this weekend or while I'm shooting please let me know

Thanks Metal

P.S. not sure If I said it before but I have about 250 to 300 rounds of factory ammo through the rifle . Almost all of that has been 168gr Federal GMM . I have not had any issue , NONE with factory ammo . I also always start the day out by shooting 4 fouling shots with factory ammo before I start shooting my reloads . I'm still not having any issues with the factory ammo .

quote:

Originally posted by Metal God:P.S. not sure If I said it before but I have about 250 to 300 rounds of factory ammo through the rifle . Almost all of that has been 168gr Federal GMM . I have not had any issue , NONE with factory ammo . I also always start the day out by shooting 4 fouling shots with factory ammo before I start shooting my reloads . I'm still not having any issues with the factory ammo .

Metal,

Please tell us you understand Atkinson's point: "WCC 60 brass like all milsurp brass it very thick and will cause high pressure if loaded with a standard load that would work fine in WW brass, but with less powder you will get the same velociy as a rule for the same reason, you have more pressure..Try the same load in WW brass in your gun and see what happens."

Data using 7.62 milsurp brass runs as much as 2-3 grains lighter than when using commercial brass. Indeed, old Hodgdon data manuals actually contained separate data sections for 7.62 and .308 - as though they were two different cartridges.

What are you using for a data source? And are the published loads specifying commercial brass?

There are other instances of wide variation in internal case capacity requiring different data sets: 5.56 vs .223 is one. .300 WBY Norma vs Rem brass is another.

Sam

Thanks for making sure I understand that mil-surp brass can give higher pressures . I do understand this but did not realize you could need as much as 3 grains less . It is aslo why I duplicated the loads using commercial brass .I will be shooting those loads this weekend . I will be using a chronograph this time as well. This should comfirm If the WCC brass is the cause of my pressure issues .

I'm using the standard 308 Win data in the Sierra and Hornady books . I have not seen data for military brass in the books but have not read them cover to cover . If you know the page in either of these books that gives load data for mil-surp brass please let me know . The Hornady book has service rifle data but they use the same case as the 308 Win and the data is about the same as the standard 308 Win
as well.

It would be great If you could lead me to a source that has load data using the WCC or LC brass

Thanks Metal

Neither the online Hodgdon data manual nor their pdf download give separate data. It can be found in the bound manuals. IIRC, the last was #26 but I am certain I have it.

You can sometimes find used copies online. If there's a specific load/projo/powder combination you need I'll dig it up.

Otherwise, start 2-3 gr under data for commercial brass and definitely use a chrono as you work up. I vaguely recall that commercial Winchester brass had/has higher capacity than Remington or Federal - but it's been two decades since I purchased new .308 brass.

Sam

Quote from IMR's manual:

"it is recommended that the powder charge be reduced 10% initially. (This reduction in powder charge weight should also be made each time that any of the components in the load are
changed.)"

Most manuals have a similar warning when substituting Military brass rather than seperate data developed in Military cases.

Although I agree that the problem is failure to reduce the charge when using USGI 7.62x51 cases, I also caution of using some liquid cases cleaners.

Most liquid case cleaning compounds have ammonia as an ingredient, which can soften the brass if allowed to soak too long. This will cause the cases to overly expand creating hard bolt lifts as well.

Metal,

I've been poring over my sources. I managed to get the manuals confused. It was Lyman that specifically calls for a 2 gr reduction with GI brass. The Hodgdon manuals do have separate data sets for hunting and match loads but both sets use WW brass.

It was Ken Waters' Pet Loads articles that I had read about two decades ago. The 1969 article finds GI brass to be 31 gr heavier than WW, 15 gr heavier than RP, and just 10 gr heavier than Federal. In the subsequent 1979 update Waters looks just at commercial cases and still finds an 8% variation in capacity. That percentage would roughly translate as 3 grains....roughly.

The overpressure concern using commercial data in military brass is also repeated in some Speer manuals.

Finally, if you read what Z1R just posted from IMR's manual, that 10% figure will work out to approximately 4 grains.

Bottom line seems to be a 2-4 grain decrement with powders in the .308-useful burn rate range.

Sam

Thanks guys for the repply's . I have read all the comments but have not reaearched it all yet . Just wanted to say my Federal brass weighs the same as my WCC brass after both have been cleaned and trimmed . Between 176gr and 179gr . I thought that was odd but it is what it is . My LC brass was 5gr heavier on avarage then those .

I'm in the process of pulling loads that are close to the books max using WCC brass . The loads I worked up for Saturday using the WCC brass had a starting load of 1gr less then minimum . I'll go another grain or two below minimum to start and see how that goes .

quote:

Originally posted by Metal God:
Between 176gr and 179gr . I thought that was odd but it is what it is . My LC brass was 5gr heavier on avarage then those.

So your LC avg would be just over 182 gr. In the 1979 article Waters found his WW brass around 160 gr. The heaviest was an older batch of Rem-UMC at 177 gr (same as your Federal and WCC). In that same article he suggested a 2.5 gr powder charge decrement for the heaviest.

So, yes, starting load ought to be about 3 grains below minimum charge in your book.

Sam

I have all my loads reduced now and I'm ready for Saturday . I even have a run of loads duplicated in WCC brass and Federal brass . with the chrono that should tell me a lot tomorrow .

I also thought I'd show you a picture of how deep I need to seat my 175gr smk to keep them off the lands


Hmm you think that might be where I'm getting my pressure issues lol

MG,

Welcome to the forum. It sounds like they have you on the right track concerning reducing loads for millsurp brass. The other thing you need to understand is that a "headspace gage" is a device used to measure the chamber of your rifle. Not your brass. What you have is a case length gage. They are usefull for benchrest type reloading, I have never felt the need to use one. It is not unusual for fireformed brass to come out of the chamber slightly different. Especialy if it is once fired brass from a different rifle. If a "chamber" gages out within specifications, then your dies should take care of the rest as long as the reloading process is done properly. Because dies are manufactured to match the precise specifications set forth for specific chamberings. If the chamber of your rifle does NOT fall within specs, then you have a headspace issue and a potentialy dangerous situation. But since specifications do allow for slight variations, that is usualy the source of variations in brass length for a given chambering when you are either using new brass or once fired brass from a different rifle. Once fireformed, many reloaders use neck sizing only as opposed to full length sizing to keep their brass a precise match with their chamber.

What is the weapon that you are using? If it was chambered for 7.62 NATO then the specs for that are slightly different than a 308. Although they are typicaly not enough to cause a headspace/saftey issue.

Your bolt lift problem is definatly from excessive pressure and those particualr loads need to be reduced.

To answer the last poster . The rifle is a Savage FCP-K chambered in 308 with a 1-10 twist .

Hello again .

I'm back from the range and I'll give a quick update now but need to go over notes and other data to give a more detailed report . That should be coming soon .

Thanks to you all and others I had a great day at the range . Cutting back the starting charges by 2gr and never getting past the middle range of what the book recommended seemed to be the trick I needed . I had very few pressure signs of any kind . Don't quote me on this cus I have not looked through my notes yet . I had a couple heavy bolt lifts and a couple primers back out a bit butt all in all 95% of the 150 rounds I shot had no issues . I even had many sub MOA groups

My gun seems to be creating much more pressure then one would think . I'll be more specific later but all my loads shot AT LEAST 150fps faster then the book said and one load/lot ( Power Pro 2000MR pushing 178gr A-MAX ) shot 400fps faster then the book said that charge should shoot . I could not even finish that lot because they were way to hot . The books starting load for the power pro is 39.9gr and that should get you 2000fps . My starting load was 39gr and I got 2410 , 2417 and 2407fps before I stopped . No pressure signs just did not like the numbers I was getting .

Anyways I'm already starting to ramble . I'll be back with a much more detailed report and some new questions . That will be most likely tomorrow some time .

Thanks again
Metal

If the load you mentioned chrono'd 400 fps faster than "book " velocity, I'd say you just might have a problem with your chrono.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
If the load you mentioned chrono'd 400 fps faster than "book " velocity, I'd say you just might have a problem with your chrono.

Agree. Is there any possibility the sky screens were a little too close to one another? It wouldn't take much - an inch or so might do it.

Did you get your Savage used? Is it possible that the previous owner removed and re-installed the barrel without using the proper headspace gauge?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Metal God:
powders used were IMR-4350 / Power Pro 2000mr / Viht N-540 / Viht N-550 . bullets used were 190gr smk , 178gr A-MAX , 165gr SST . Yes I know the powder and bullets are not what most would use but It was all I could find at the time .

Thanks Metal

I would fault the powder, millsurp brass and possibly even the data before the rifle. It is good that you have a Chronograph. 4064 and 4895 should produce more predictable results for you from your 308. It is my belief that sometimes even in new load books that they will use old, outdated, recycled data when it comes to unusual powders for a given caliber. Slower powders in smaller cases will peak rather easily, and the fact that you are using Millsurp brass is exacerbating the situation for sure.

I bought the rifle new . I bought it in Feb and it now has 500 to 600 rounds down the pipe .

I had a pretty good day on Saturday thanks to the help I've had here . The pressure issue were for the most part gone and the rifle was shooting great . I was at the range for 8hrs and it got to 94 degrees out there . Needless to say I was burning out by the end of the day and I think my shooting suffered a bit at the end .

CHRONO

When I started out shooting and really all day the Chrono was reading the shots around 150 to 200fps faster then the book said that charge should get . I was chauking that up to the fact of the higher pressures my rifle was generating do to the short throat and bullet seating depth . How ever later in the day I was getting errors all the time and I moved the chrono a bit thinking the reflector things were casting a shadow on the censers . After that it was working again . That just happen to be right before I shot the loads the were 400fps faster then the book . I also shot some GMM rounds through the chrono at the end of the day and they clocked in 250fps faster then what they were supposed to . I have a Chrony Chronograph . They are the type that fold up on them selves . I now believe the chrono was not fully deployed and that put the sticks closer together by about 1/2 inch or so . The fact I don't really know if that was the case all day or just the last part of the day . I feel I must throw out all the velocity's of the day . . I will keep the the differences in velocity's from shot to shot cus that should still be correct . YES ?

Military brass vs commercial/Federal brass

I had duplicate loads worked the only difference was the brass . Brass used was WCC 06 weighing 177gr-ish and Federal weighing the same 177gr-ish . Keeping in mind my chrono issues . Both sets of loads shot the same velocity's . I had 8-4 shot loads of WCC brass and 7-4 shot loads using Federal brass . Powder used was IMR-4895 and the bullet was 175gr smk . The huge difference I saw was the federal brass extreme spread was much less across the board then the wcc brass . WCC had at times 90fps difference and the Federal brass had a 30fps difference . Now those numbers are at the extremes but the WCC brass never got better then 25fps while the Federal brass best spread was 11fps . The other glaring difference was ALL my Federal groups were sub MOA . The spread in MOA with Fed was .540 to .980 MOA and the WCC was ..522 to 1.40 moa with 4 of the 8 groups being 1 moa or more while the Fed brass shot all sub moa groups .

I had 1 primer back out using WCC brass with a 36gr charge of 4895 and at MY new max charge of 38.5gr I had 2 heavy bolt lifts at the top . ( when I say MY new max I'm saying that because my starting loads are 2gr less then then the books minimum . If you take 2gr off of the books max my 38.5gr puts me close to the max ) . I did not get the primer backing out with the Fed brass or any heavy bolt lifts . The Federal brass was by far the better brass .

I did shoot some loads that I changed the brass from WCC to Fed and reduced the charge as well from the last time out . The powder was Viht N-540 the bullet was 178gr A-max . None had pressure issues and ALL were sub MOA .I did not have any WCC reloads at the reduced charge but did have some over lap of charges . My notes say I had pressure issue when shooting the duplicate over lap charges using WCC brass but not with the Fed brass .

I think I'm starting to see a pattern here . The Federal brass had , really no pressure issues and was much more consistent no matter what it was loaded with .

There is so much to take in on all this I'm not sure what to ask . So any comments are welcome .

On another note working with a Chrono and working up loads . How clean do you guys like your rifle to be ? I had guys at the range say I should be cleaning the bore anywhere from every charge to every 10 to 20 shots . My thought is to test the accuracy and the velocity in the conditions the rifle will be in when used most of the time .

I've talked about this before but I'll touch on it again . I plan to clean my rifle every 4 to 6 hundred rounds . Working on the copper equilibrium theory . You are removing as much fouling as you are leaving . you will have a more consistent rifle for a longer round count then if you clean your rifle every 20 rounds .

Because of this I have only ran a bore snake through the rifle once in the last 300 rounds . The guys at the range are saying that is giving me false readings because of the fouling in the bore . I say it's giving me a more accurate reading of what my rifle will shoot like under MY normal conditions . What say you ? One guy even said thats were my pressure issue and higher velocity's are coming from but he does not have the whole story .

I guess thats good for now .

Light conditions affect reliability of chrono readings. When testing shotgun ammo I always bring "controls" of known velocity. If the readings seem spurious I hold further chrono testing for another occasion.

Sticky bolt lift can be a very late sign. I once tested some .300 Win loads w/180 gr heads in a 24" bbl. I was upping charges in 1 grain increments. The fourth increment gave sticky bolt lift. Next time out I had the chrono. The second increment had my 180s going around 3100 fps. I should have stopped there but.......the third gave me a reading of 3375 fps. I did not try the fourth increment. The starting load was likely right at maximum.

As Wstrnhuntr has suggested, funny things can happen at the excessive pressure ranges.

Sam

I'd like to add a question about the WCC brass and military brass in general . I'd like to keep using it if it won't take to much work to get it shooting better . I'm thinking I'd be willing to anneal and make the flash hole more uniform if that is one of the problems . Turning the necks down does not sound like something I would want to do . I know I don't want to do all three . I'll just start buying Lapua brass if it becomes to much work .

I'll work on the brass if I can get it shooting like the Fed brass . I pay $68 for 250 rounds of once fired 308 military brass . That seems like a good price if I can get it shooting well . You guys have any short cuts , lol

I can buy norma range pickup brass for that price. If you use commersial brass it saves you a lot of time, powder and bullets.

M-G,

I'll let the other contribute for the brass & loading issues, sounds like you're making progress.

The Chrony:

I also use a Chrony (Beta). Results are only as good as you can be consistant - every time.

Go to Home Depot (or whereever ....) and purchase thin wooden dowels to replace the metal skyscreen rods. If you hit metal it's gonna be painful (why do I know that?) the wood just splinters and gives up the ghost.

Measure 4"-5" up from the bottom of the wooden dowels and mark with colored electrical tape so you can see from your shooting position that you are not too low, sinking, bags have sagged, etc. so you don't let one zip through (or into the face of the Chrony) too low. Remember to check this every shot.

Measure the display cable and mark off your designated distance; 10, 12 or 15 ft. from the display. If you don't use the table-top display, and read from the chrony screen on the Chrony, get a piece of string or cable (or even a tape measure) that doesn't stretch and measure your exact distance. Use this from the end of the table, muzzle, sand bags, rest or what ever; but use the exact same distance every time.

Get a sandbag (doesn't have to be too awfully heavy) and hook onto the tripod to keep it stable or from folding up or tipping over in windy, breezy conditions.

Remember, for every Chrony owner there are those who have already wounded or killed their's or are waiting to .....

Oh, yeah; when one your Buddies asks if they can put one over the screens - you do it, not them.

Have Fun!

I have the 9th edition of the Hornady book and they don't list the Viht N540 powder with the 178 gr A-max. They list N-150.
Check your powder to be sure it's the same as the book.
In my Sierra book, Edition V 6th printing, In the 308 data the last lines read "If military brass is used for reloading, the charges shown should be reduced by one to two grains. The thicker construction of these cases decreases the capacity, Making a reduction in charge weight a necessity."
Now using the mil-surp brass needs a reduction and you have to seat the bullet deeper needs a reduction. That could be part of the problem.
Also have you measured the neck of the mil-surp brass with a bullet seated. It could have thicker brass at the neck and it seems your chamber is on the tight side it could be the neck is tight in the chamber. This maybe raising the pressure as well.
Measure your Federal brass at the neck with a bullet seated to compare. You may find this part of the problem.
Leo

not sure what the ambient temp was on range day. In addition to the mil brass I'm sure there a few factors that played into pressure problems. Lots of great info here. Hope all is going well.

quote:

Remember, for every Chrony owner there are those who have already wounded or killed their's or are waiting to .....

Guilty as charged! At least SC gave me a discount on a new Chrony when I sent them the one with a hole in it.


MG, the guys above have provided great advice to way more detail than I can. My question in using the milsurp brass would be in consistency. When loading for my 308 Win bolt gun, one thing I checked was consistency of the brass by weighing it. While commercial brass may have variations in weight by a grain or two (if memory is correct), the mil surp brass I tried (LC or IMI)was a lot higher. So with greater differences in weight there is difference in internal volume and likely velocity.

Depending on all the factors of shooter, rifle, load, etc. it may not make that much difference, but for my scoped rifles I generally stay with commercial brass, and when shooting my iron sighted military rifles I run milsurp brass through them (ie LC68, LC69 in the Garand).

Good luck!