I am thinking of starting a new rifle project. I'm not sure exactly what it will be I am still deciding oon 2 main things. The caliber and the choice of rifle itself.

For caliber I want something that is extremely flat shooting caliber, with less recoil then a 308, and with more accuracy potential then the 308. I plan to load develop for this caliber so I dont care if any of the big ammo makers load for this caliber. I will only be shooting my own loads so that is not a deciding factor as far as caliber. I was thinking something along the lines of a 260, 270 or somewhere in the 280 side of things. As I have never shot any of these calibers I was hoping for some helpful insight from those of you out there that have. What are your opinions of these calibers? It seems like the 260s and 280s have been gaining a good reputation for accuracy. I am also open to any suggestions as long as the recoil is under that of a 308. I would also prefur to shoot a 22 cal bullet as opposed to a 30 cal.

Now for the rifle selection, I was thinking of something a little less mainstream like a Sako, Tikka or maybe even a Browning A-Bolt stainless stalker or something along those lines. I just recently tried my first Brwning, it was a Medalion A Bolt in 338 and my god the bolt/action was as smooth as glass. It impressed me immensely! So that is the one and only reason I put the A-Bolt on the list. The Sako I like for the same reason, the bolt/action is very impressive. I also love the new sporter, I forgot the model name but it is the one with the adjustable cheek piece. It is all wood, and I do not like wood at all, but for this project I might make an exception. I also like the Tikka for the same reasons as the Sako. Whatever I choose it will have to be a heavy barrel for sure. And I did not see that the Brownings even come in a heavy bbl. I like some other exotics like the Blaser and others like thaty but they only come in the main calibers.

Does anyone have some suggestions or ideas on this project?

7mm-08 is your answer for cartridge.

As to rifle, get a New Ultra Light Arms.

George

Most of the 1000 Yard shooters shoot the 6.5x284. They use bullets around 140 to 142 grains. They claim the same external ballistics as a 300 magnum
[external not terminal ] and about the same recoil as the 308.
A 260 or a 243 would also be a good choice. Some of the match shooters are using the 243 with a fast twist bbl for 200,300, and 600 yard accross the course shooting.
Some of the new short mag ctgs are good but their recoil will be more than the 308.
Norma/BlackHills load the 6.5x284. One of my buddies has a lightweight hunting rifle in that caliber, but I have not shot it.

No need to reinvent the wheel on the caliber: 6.5x55 Swedish.

The rifle? I'd get a Sako.

[ 05-15-2003, 01:57: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]

Iam with George...7mm/08..is just what you asked for.....sakofan...you got me wanting one!!
In Sako, of course...

Maybe look into the 260rem. Necked down 308. Can get it several rifles. Rem mountain rifle comes to mind.

250 savage

Unless I missed it, what is the purpose of this cartridge to be?
More accurate that a 308, is fairly limmiting. If you're paper punching, maybe a 6mm PPC?

Ifun you want a flat shooter try a 6mm-284

220 Swift.

Get 6mm/.284. It kicks a lot less than a .308, and shoots flat as hell. Mine gives 3400 with a 100-grain bullet, 3600 with an 85 grain! (26" barrel).

If you want extremely flat shooting, which to me meens 3300-3500 fps with hunting weight bullets, and mild recoil, then you need to look at the pea shooters, ie hot 25's. I know one of the members that dotes on the 257 Weatherby and 25-284. I've never shot any of those rounds so can't comment on recoil, but they can fling the lil bullets out at high speed.

If accuracy is the goal, then forget a factory rifle other then for the source of the action. You need a quality barrel fit by a good gunsmith.

I'm with George, the 7mm-08 is a terrific round. For a rifle I'm just looking at the new Rifles Inc. brochure and some really nice stuff there.

Embalmer

6,5-284 NORMA will give you 3100 fps with a 140 grain bullet. I have tried a friends rifle. He is very happy with it, used in on billy goat, dall sheep, ibex, persian gazelle, chamois and roe deer. His favorite load is 140 grain Nosler partitions. Recoil is less or simular to 308 but ballistics are much better. Hornady, Lapua and Norma makes brass for the caliber and Norma loads ammo.

The 6,5X55 lacks behind the 6,5-284. I would have gotten an old nice sako and swapped the barrel. Stick with a 24 inch barrel.

Good luck
/ JOHAN

[ 05-18-2003, 15:30: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

Extremely flat, recoils less than a .308, and is more accurate than a .308 - it's really hard to find a round that fills all three. The 7-08 gives you two out of three (it's not extremely flat), the .270 gives you one out of three (flat, but not more accurate nor less recoil; the recoil is about the same as the .308), .257 Mag or .25-284 give you maybe two out of three (not more accurate). You've created some pretty tough standards.

I think you may have to give up on the "more accurate" requirement, because in reality, almost any cartridge can be made to be very accurate, given a good quality barrel, good bedding, and good bullets. Accuracy can be gained that would more than satisfy anyone other than a high-level BR competitor. If the gun is for hunting, you can take your pick of any mild-recoiling, flat-shooting round and tune up the gun for outstanding accuracy.

If flat is measured by point-blank-range, the 6mm-284 is a good rig. The 6.5-284 might be a little more velocity for a given bullet weight, not sure how the cross-section plays out for trajectory. Cartridges in that realm, 30-06-size case capacity with .243 or .257 bullets, do well for trajectory with reasonable recoil.

6mm AI does nicely and allows factory ammunition, 25-06 is factory ammunition.

Tom

I would have to give the 7/08 a nod to for the reasons you gave.I have one in a rem classic with a 24 in barrel and it shoots great.Don't know wether the brands you mentioned has a 24 in barrel or not.the 24 in will give you a little more fps.I also have a 260 and I think I prefer the 7/08 over it,but both are great for deer.
I have gotten the 7/08 over 3100 fps with a 130 gr bullet,I just worked out a load for the 120 gr bullet tuesday I didn't check the fps but it should be over 3000 fps.
Good luck on whatever your choice.

Embalmer,

I am glad to see another shooter or hunter from Southern California.

I shoot .308s now, and I understand your requirements.

More than 30 years ago I built two rifles on Remington actions, a M721 .280 Remington, and a M700 6.5-'06. I shot metallic silhouette with the .280, and it works fine over the 200 to 500 meter course of fire with the Sierra Match King bullets.

The 6.5-'06 I use for Western deer hunting, and it is flat-shooting over the ranges I use it. Just now I am working up a load for it with the 120 grain Swift A-Frame. I used to shoot 140 Hornady, 129 Hornady and 125 Nosler Partitions.

Doing the same rifle building today I would move to the shorter case of the .308 Win. The 7-08 is mentioned several times above for good reason. The .260 Remington will work as well. Except this time around I would hunt with the 7mm and shoot target with the 6.5 mm.

I have Sako, Tikka and Remington makes in these types of rifles and I think the Sako has the edge in quality -- for those you mention.

Anyway, good luck with your rifle building.

jim dodd

I'd have to recomend the 6.5x55 Swedish.

Depending on the action length, I would choose the 6.5x55 for the long action or the 260 or
7mm-08 for the short. Although hard to find you can find Sakos in 6.5 SE and 7mm-08 - you will have to rebarrel an AII action for the 260. You will be impressed with a Sako rifle chambered in the above-mentioned cartridges.

Embalmer,

While reading your post, the new Kimber Model 84 in 7mm-08 came to mind.
Rich Elliott

Am I the only one that missed this line??

Embalmer said,

quote:

---

....I would also prefur to shoot a 22 cal bullet as opposed to a 30 cal.

---

22/250, 22/250 AI, and 220 Swift seem to be the choices.

Ihave enver shot a 7mm-08. What can it be compared to? Recoil wise and balistically?

I think most of us are in agreement about using the .308 case. It is inded a winner. That lays open the question of the .260Rem caliber or the 7mm/.308. We know about the excellent accuracy potential of the two other popular calibers with this case, the .243Win. and the .308Win. I would imagine the two mentioned above would feature the same degree of accuracy. Now the question arises, where do we get a commercial rifle with a heavy barrel in those calibers. You've got me there. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Just to be different, how about a 22-243AI with an 8 twist?
JLK 80gr bullet (BC .530) @ 3,650 with modest recoil. Very flat and wind defiant.

Heck, its everything you asked for.

VH

Man! There is few posts that one can argue with here. This group has it shit wrapped tight.

I shoot a 6.5 x55, a 260 Remington, and those are my favorites if long distance targets are the goal. Aerodynamic and great bullet selection. Althought trendy, the 6.5/284 does not do that much more for a handloader, so I did not bother building one after researching it.
A friend did and does not get anything more than my 260 Remington VLS does, except to the bottom of their powder can quicker than I do. A little more velocity, but not enough to make a real difference on the trajectory at 600 yds.

No one mentioned the good old 243 or 6 mm Remington. Good bullet selection, low recoil once again. Flat shooting, especially with a 107 grain Sierra Match or a 105 Grain AMax.

The 7/08, or 7 x57, are also real flat shooters and very versatile with low recoil. Although I own several 7 x 57s, to Herr Carcano, the 7/08 will do anything a 7 x 57 will. However I don't think you gain much with a 280 unless you are doing a longer barrel, and the heaviest bullets, the 175s. I see no need for a magnum in under 30 caliber.

Finally the good old standbys, not already mentioned. 270Winch, 250 Savage or 257 Roberts.
I prefer then all over the 25/06, strictly because they can be loaded to do the same and are more power efficient.

And not to forget the gentleman who mentioned the 6 PPC. Never owned one, or personally had the need for one, but also never saw one that was not a tack driver from hell. I take that back, if Ruger still had their Varmint/Target model in 6PPC, I would have one of those in the gun cabinet.

This was a great response from this crowd.

E, you didn't say if you were planning on buying a factory offering or building one from the ground up, whether you want to punch paper or hunt. Maybe a 6.5x.284 or .260 as a paper puncher, the .270 or .280 as a hunting rig? It's nice to have to make such tough decisions!

Sorry guys, a handloaded 7x57 will outclass a 7-08 anyway you cut it and by a substantial margin. The 7-08 is a fine round but appreciate its better qualities like a lack of recoil, compactness for short actions, and it ability to utilize lighter bullets...

MY thoughts based on your post would be a .284 Win. a much overlooked round that just about does it all in a short action...I also like the 250 Savage, it is one of my all time favorite rounds for varmints and deer and I shot a pot full of elk with it many moons ago...

However, I doubt if any of them will match the .308 for pure accuracy on an average.

Correct me if Im mistaken but wont the difference in recoil between a 7-08 and a 308 depend largly on the bullets selected? Im thinking a 7mm with 175 grn bullets is gonna punch every bit as much as the average 308 load.

The 6.5 variants are the first that come to my mind when looking for something to best a 308 in accuracy or flat shooting with less recoil, but as previously mentioned, your all over the map Embalmer! 22's and 280's have virtually nothing in common! You need to narrow down your caliber selection and then get some suggestions on a cartridge. And keep in mind that the 308 is never easy to beat for long range accuracy by anybodys or any chamberings standards, its simply one of the best!

Is this for punching paper or is there some hunting in this flat/accurate shooters future?

My personal choice for something to more or less fill that bill is a 257 AI on a Mauser 98.

[ 06-10-2003, 08:58: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

westernhunter:

Nice pick, a 257AI on a mauser 98. I love the 6.5 version of that, ( though don't feel I need the ackley, just me tho).

But a mid range caliber on an old proven action like the 98 Mauser, just plain works. Has been doing so longer than a lot of the newer cartridges which really don't improve much on performance of the old stuff. And if they do, they need a lot more powder and normally give someone an extra 100 yds. Any good shooter does not need it, because he understand trajectory.

sort of like comparing a 57 Corvette to a 2003 Vette. The 2003 has a lot more technology and runs rings around the 57 Vette in performance.
The only thing it does not have that the 57 has is timeless quality and class.

Give me the 57, or the 257 on a Mauser action.

I have been thinking about a similar rifle and for me the following show promise:

.25 Souper
.25 Souper Improved
.260 Rem
.260 Rem Improved

if you wanted to go with a longer action and felt you needed more "umpf" then

6.5 x 55
6.5 x 55 Improved

The .25 Souper really takes my fancy only down side is added expense ! Saying that i wouldnt turn my nose up at a sweet little .260 either.....

Englander

I have been thinking about a similar rifle and for me the following show promise:

.25 Souper
.25 Souper Improved
.260 Rem
.260 Rem Improved

if you wanted to go with a longer action and felt you needed more "umpf" then

6.5 x 55
6.5 x 55 Improved

The .25 Souper really takes my fancy only down side is added expense ! Saying that i wouldnt turn my nose up at a sweet little .260 either.....

Englander

[ 06-10-2003, 19:41: Message edited by: Englander ]

to help clarify my intended uses for this rifle.......

I will be mostly shooting targets with it. I am looking for a long range caliber with less recoil then the 308. Something I can enjoyably shoot all day long without the recoil getting annoying after awhile. I am thin in stature and it seems that recoil affects me more then most. Although I love the .308, something with less recoil would be more enjoyable for me to shoot. I know I can add a muzzle break to the 308 to reduce recoil, but I already have a .308 and am loking for my next project rifle in a new caliber.

I might hunt with this rifle, but that would be one in a million chance. Hunting is not one of my main concerns when selectiong rifles or calibers. As I do not hunt, but would like to someday.

As for my wanting a 22 over a 30 cal bullet, that can be removed from the equation. As it turns out that wont matter to me after all. My main needs or wants are less recoil then the .308 and a flat shooting caliber with great potential for accuracy.

The 7-08 is sounding interesting as well as a few others that have been mentioned above. With my clarification on what I am looking for, does this open up the floor for any new or different suggestions?

Also, where can I go to research the above mentioned calibers? As well as others that I am looking into? Is there somewhere on the net that has the ballisic and trajectory info sorted out by caliber? If so please post it here if you could.

Thanks for all the help and advice, keep em coming, you have all been of great help in this endevor.

Embalmer, I agree with all the posters who've suggested that the 6.5x55 and the 7x57 are top choices, along with the .260 Remington and the 7mm-08. All of these are great, but the 6.5x55 has more history as a light-recoil, long-range target cartridge. It would be my pick.

One other cartridge that I haven't seen mentioned, but might be just the ticket for you is the 6mm B.R. Remington. It is very close to the respected 6mm PPC, but is probably more practical. The recoil level is probably more comparable to a .223 than a .243, so you can imagine how light this is. It is also efficient. The people I know who use it, swear that it gives them velocities comparable to the much larger .243 with much less powder consumption and blast. I have personally seen people shoot winning scores at 600-metre matches with it, and I know people who swear by it at 1000 yards (with 107-grain bullets). It has been called the king of 300-metre competition, and it is a true benchrest cartridge, so its accuracy is unbeatable.

You might want to think about this little-known gem, the 6mm B.R. Remington.

Cheers.

After doing some reading it is looking like I will be going with either the 6.5-284 or a 7mm-08 with a poassability of a 270. BUt Out of the three the only one I have shot is the 270. I dont know what the recoil is like on the other 2. Balistically I think all three will perform as needed for me. Now I just need to know which would be less with recoil, and powder consumption and other minor factors.

Anyone able to clue me in on the minor specifics of either of these 2 cartridges? The 6.5-284 and the 7mm-08?

Embalmer
Based on your last 2 posts I recommend you go with the 260 Remington if most of your shooting will be under 600 yards. If you are going to do a fair amount of shooting out to 1000 yards pick the 6.5x284. Target bullets in the 142gr weight range will probably be your best bet.
A fast twist 243 would also work.

Accuracy is more of a funtion of the shooter and rifle than the shape of the brass, at least to the range limits of the cartridges. If this were not true potential prey of Soviet snipers firing 7.62x54R could relish in their expectations of a long life.

While it is difficult to top the .308 at 600 yds, if the range is 1000 yds or beyond where the .308 will slip below transonic speed the 6.5x55, .260, and 6.5-284 will do it for you. Under 1000 yds, the .25-284 is worth consideration.

The .270 and .280 have a sharper recoil than the .308, and the 7mm-08 is only slightly better than .308. The .243 is relatively mild.