Thanks Jeff!
Peter.

You can call it what you want....
Please translate this "speculative bullshit" too so some of you will not have the convenient excuse of not knowing or reading foreign language...
http://www.deportiro.com.ar/armaslargas/bl10.shtml
Blind as well are those who do not want to see...

Mannlicher7.

Mr. Mannlicher7 I feel you are doing nothing but spreading anti Blaser propaganda. As Blaser owners we have had to listen to bogus crap like yours for years. So if you are looking for a receptive audience you are wasting your time. There is no need to act so cranky because we question your information. You have the right to buy or not to buy a Blaser as we do just because we like them does not mean we will not do so on your hard to verify,vague,poorly lacking in details, one sided newspaper article.

Looks like you are right Ron.
Yes Peter, I speak, read and write in Spanish, and because of that I found that in the last few weeks the only focus on Mannlicher7 interest is to spread anti Blaser propaganda.
Here are the proofs:

www.club-caza.com/forum/displa...ge.asp?mid=264318#p1
www.club-caza.com/forum/displa...ge.asp?mid=264631#p1
http://forums.accuratereloadin...rtType=1&u=263103877
www.mexicoarmado.com/search.php?searchid=1865369

By the way, a photo the injured Spain citizen appears at the end of this link:
http://saxtech.eu/Waffen/Blaser-R93.htm

Regards

Kechutti

Will you give us the summary of the "Spanish" incident?

What surprises me is that the owners of Blaser are not challenging these allegations at all.

I am sure that Blaser must be fully aware of this post - and the potential damage it will do to the reputationn their product.

So where is their response????

By the way I am an R93 owner with 3 barrels.

There is no benefit in them responding. It would only bring additional exposure they don't want or need. Having read this topic for years, I would guess you have a much better chance of getting hit by lightning that injured by a Blaser 93. Both would seem to require less-than-perfect judgement from the injured party most if not all of the time.

That said, I prefer actions that blow the barrel forward when they fail over an action that blows the bolt backward.

It is curious that Kechutti is not translating my "anti Blaser propaganda" so people would know that I'm not talking exclusively about Blaser but the consequences that happened in a Spanish forum believed to be linked to them where they DELETED an entire thread TWICE!...
If people read carefully would realize that I NEVER EVER (not in a single post) blamed the manufacturer for the accident despite reaching the conclusion that they may be responsible as well.
I'm not the only one warning people as it should be. Look at French and nordic forums. There you will see some SERIOUS thoughts about this issue. After TWELVE serious accident worlwide I think that people should start thinking about the safety of this firearm instead of insisting on sweeping the skeletons under the carpet.
And I'm grateful to others that posted the previous accident so I got informed thus avoiding the purchase of an R93 scheduled for my birthday...

Mannlicher7.

I would be cranky as well if I had ordered a Blaser and had to settle for a lesser gun for my birthday!

Why did you not get a K95 or a BBF, I do not think anyone has managed to blow one up yet.

Ron Williams:
You are right. The K95 was my next choice. I've never seen the kind of accuracy that K95 provide just with factory ammo alone. But is a single shot rifle... so I thought about other brand that could fill my "high" aspiration but....
Merkel gives me the creep with all that plastic on the KR-1 and Mauser03 almost got me killed when it discharged as one of my friends took the safety off. This same person has a Sauer 90 locked in his vault because he chambered a round and then somehow it got stucked there to no avail. The gunsmith couldn't do anything and recommended sending it to the factory but the mail or any postal service we tried refused to do the transportation. Another one wouldn´t lift some .338 round sistematically every second shot... I looked to a Sauer 202 but the owner of the gunshop discouraged me about because he cannot make his 30-06 shoot straight after replacing the barrel and mounting it again....but is still on my list. From a Sako owner I learned that there were two accidents at the same month last year. It seems that somebody managed to get airborne his Sako's bolt and stopped it with his chest. No major injuries. Another person blew his Sako barrel and the windshield as he was sighting the rifle (very illegally) from inside his car... And Tikka...well...just look at the two Tikka pictures on the net... From Steyr Mannlicher I have a few and I'm very very satisfied but I refuse to buy the new Luxus with all that plastic and that awfull white painting on the side of that aluminium bulshit receiver. With Remington as far as I know accuracy is a lottery and they have a very bad tendency to get rust on their very first wet hunting expedition. I saw it happening. Twice. I hate stainless.... Winchester... I like some of them very much but the importer is a moron and he only brings in the Featherweight Model with the shorter barrel....
CZ I had one. Very rough with a huge chamber. Also a problematic feeder... Weatherby...heavy with an ugly stock and overpriced...Howa is another good choice but it lacks flavour... Schultz &Larsen is on my list but I'm affraid that this one would be a very expensive rifle....and a heavy one.
So...it seems that the only true quality and affordable choice could be the Husqvarna's 900 copy made by Zoli: The Z 1900. It looks very good built. I don´t know about accuracy but it has one of the best trigger I tried... I don´t know maybe this is it. I saw the nordic barrel test and anyway no accident yet. We will see...
Mannlicher7.



PS: I hope you are not going to accuse me of bad mouthing Blaser in order to promote Zoli now, are you?

Let me try to share with all of you what I just found in a few Forums from Spain and USA:

Alvaro Mazón Sanchez de Neyra ( aka "montero" in AR, "BBerg" in 24 Hour Campfire and Camino Real Hunting Consultants honcho) reported on July 24, 2009 ( www.corzo.info/foro/read.php?3,14499 and www.saxtech.eu/Waffen/Blaser-R93.htm) that about 12:00 hrs. on Canto Blanco shooting range, near Madrid, a person named J.N. (Juan Nieto) suffered severe facial trauma, when his Blaser R93 cal. 7mm RM blow up when he was shooting it with Remington Safari Grade commercial ammo. Juan Nieto was taken to the Ramón y Cajal Hospital and there is no medical report of the extent of his injuries.

The same notice was taken by 470NE (Pablo N; www.470one.com; 470Nitro: NitroExpress.com) and inserted in decaza.com (www.decaza.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13172) and with more or less the same words on"La Razón" and "20 Minutos" newspapers.

All kind of comments has been written on Hunting and Shooting forums from Spain, two of them from Mannlicher7, a lot from "19dragon75" (the worst against Blaser: www.club-caza.com/forum/displa...ge.asp?mid=264965#p1) a person that confess he works for Borches S.A.( Mannlicher, Remington, Bushnell representative on Spain) and other that works for Ardesa.

Excopesa, Blaser representative in Spain, ask to his clients to be patient until technical analysis could be completed and a Official Report published.

Nobody writes about the actual health status of Juan Nieto.

Most of the people that had written about the notice, like "Mannlicher7", said that they are only interested to warn people; as it should be¡¡¡ I hope that in the near future, Mannlicher7 write about his knowledge of blown up Mannlichers and others rifles. Lets see if He honors his word.

If "montero" reads this thread, could be very interesting to know his opinion.

IMO, there is a lot of issues that must be cleared:
-Why only in Europe, the Blaser rifles blow up?
-Why 12 of about 200,000 Blaser rifles on hands of shooters and hunters, had blow up since 1993?
-How this numbers are compared with other brands?
-How many technical reports (Official) of blown rifles has been reported and which has been the conclusions: Ammo defects, barrel obstruction, metal fatigue, wrong design, etc.
-Which is the risk of blow up of each rifle brand?

There is four options to live with risks:
Hide under Mother skirt: Coward
Forget about it: Irresponsibility
Transfer to somebody: Buy an Accident Insurance
Attenuation: Intelligently take care of all the generally accepted rules of security

Regards

Kechutti

Thanks for the info.

Mannlicher7

I have been shooting bolt rifles since before 1970. I have either owned or shot most kinds avialable. I have shot a lot of factory and my reloads.

I have never blown a gun up. The Blaser R 93 is my favorite Bolt rifle, so far.

I would recommend you get one and shoot it a bit.

I have shot several thousand rounds through various R 93 barrels, with never a problem.

So far all of the Blaser blow ups I am aware of were eventually traced back to improper reloads with the wrong type powder.

Be advised than in many rifle blow ups, no matter the brand, the shooter will not admit to using reloads.

Pablo Gonzàlez from Excopesa is one of the best 'dealers' in the arms buiness - He does his work very carefully and with full technical forensic lab back up.

The last one I had to laugh at was the owner who blew himself up using a (brand new) Sako 85 in .300Win. Tried to claim either the rifle or the ammunition was defective...but if you will fire 30-06 in a .300win you can expect nasty things to happen...

The one before was also a new Sako 85 in .300 win. First trip to the range. The proud new owner owns a gun shop in Harare...but he managed to fill the cases with S265 (H110 equivalent) instead of S365...The barrel did actually hit the target

In brief, if people shoot rifles, they will mix up ammo at some point or they will re-load badly at some point- heven knows- I have bulged one barrel before today by not anealing the case necks on fireforming...

NB- I don't own a Blaser- I shoot an F.N made Mauser and a Krieghoff double, but I do know one of the Blaser people well (he is from namibia) and all failures to date have been due to the use of reloads (waranty void) or wrong ammo in the chamber...

I think that it is unfortunate the fellow in Madrid got hurt, regardless of wether it was the rifle,ammo or operator error. I also think that deep down that Mannlicher7 still desires to have a Blaser. I recommend that he find somebody that owns one in a good old standard caliber such as a 7X64 or 30-06 and goes to the range and shoots one a bit. My thought is that if you are that concerned about accidents and you buy in to and believe the stories bouncing around the internet you will notice most problems were reported with high intensity rounds. If you are that concerned, just get a standard round and go hunting and enjoy.

I know nothing about the Zoli line of rifles so I can not accuse you of badmouthing Blasers in order to promote Zoli.

Also of note when I read the Spanish newspaper article the very last paragrapgh after the blow up article, discussed ridding the world of ALL firearms. A newspaper with such a liberal agenda would not put any firearm in good light regardless of make.

O.K., I own a Blaser R93, and plan to get another eventually. I am neither a Blaser hater nor a Blaser coolaid drinker.

Most conventional bolt actions originated in the very late 19th and early 20th century. Along with most standard size military castridges – 7x57, 8x57, .30-06, etc.

The earliest Mausers – models 1891-1896 are probably as strong as anything built today, provided the brass case containment does not fail. If the case head fails, the gas handling characteristics were inacdequate to vent the locking lug recess before the pressure exceeded the capabilities of this larger, thinner unintentional pressure vessel. The lugs or receiver ring fails and the shooter gets a bolt in the face.

The 1898 Mauser, 1903 Springfield, 1917 Enfield all rectified this by incorporating adequate gas handing in the receiver ring area for the gas volumes possible from the cartridges for which they were designed. A case head failure of a standard cartridge of the case capacity and case to bore volume ratio of the .30-06 or similar is extremely unlikely to result in receiver ring/bolt failure in any of these actions. Years ago, I experienced a complete case head failure in a post ’68 model 70 Winchester. Because is had adequate gas handling for the .308 cartridge involved, there was absolutely no damage to rifle or shooter. I’m sure the result would have been the same with a Remington 700 or any of the latter group of military actions mentioned above.

I cannot state at what combination of cartridge case capacity and case to bore volume ratio these action’s gas handling would prove inadequate. It is, however, reasonable to assume that at some combination of case capacity and case to bore volume ratio, the gas volume going to the lug recess in the event of a case head failure would overwhelm the action’s gas handling features and the trapped pressure would fail the bolt and/or receiver ring. I just do not know whether it would require a 7mm Rem Mag, a 7mm Rem Ultra Mag, or something even larger.

I have heard of some extraordinary tests and have never heard of a single R93 bolt/receiver ring failure provided the cartridge case remained intact.

If the cartridge case head does fail, whether by overpressure or material defect of the brass, it is obvious that the ability of the R93 to vent gas and remain intact, at least in the case of large case volume/high case to bore volume ratio cartridges like the 7mm Rem Mag or .300 Weatherby, is suspect. It is interesting to note that both of these cartridges have almost identical case to bore volume ratios.

Cases of lesser volume, like the .30-06, or of lower case to bore volume ratio, like the .338 WM, .375 H&H, or .416 RM are probably not capable of overwhelming the R93 action’s gas handling features and causing the type of accidents under discussion.

I was hoping, when I started this thread, that I could get a list of cartridges that had been involved in such accidents to better find where the boundary of gas handling for this action might lie.

I suspect that Blasers are a target of these (blowup) stories bacuse of the unconventional bolt lockup. Everyone can look at, and understand, the conventional lockup with bolt lugs, bolt handle etc. etc but the Blaser way is not intuitive and therefore suspect. As to all of them being in Europe, again I suspect this is because there are more Blasers in Europe than in the USA! Say what you want about wrong ammo, bad handloads etc. but I think that people expect some safety margin and get worried when they read these things. I woudl suspect that similar things were talked about by American gun writers when the Glocks first came out ie, plastic guns, gun blow ups, gun safety etc.
Peter.

The only Steyr Mannlicher accident that I know appeared on Lutz Moller website. I own the very same model. So I went bezerk and tried to translate the thread with a non satisfactory result. So I wrote to Steyr Mannlicher giving them my rifle's serial number and asking all sort of things concerning safety. To my surprise I received a response from Steyr's vice president reassuring me that my firearm was completely safe (of course I expected that)and also received the laboratorial test (signed and seal stamped by the lab) with photographs explaining in detail what they had found.(I did not expected that). I would not comment on the shooter's procedures that lead to the accident but let me say that I was entirely satisfied with Steyr's report. So they gained my trust.
Be sure that if anything wrong happens with my Steyr rifles or anyone´s Steyr I will post it here loud and clear as a usefull warning information and never as a culprit fingering affair.
Now about the Blaser: It is not only in Europe that such unfortunate events happened. One of the first occurred in Africa and another one in New Zealand. In Europe so far I´m sure it has happened in four countries: Germany,France,Austria,Spain and possibly Norway and Denmark....
So... you start thinking on what the hell is going on....and you want to know why, specially by knowing that one of the best rifle designer work with Blaser...
Since the last accident I did some research,phoned a lot,faxed a lot and e-mailed a lot....and it seems to me that a pattern or two have emerged:
a) Nearly all the caliber involved were magnum caliber. (There is one incident in the USA with a gentleman using a 30-06 and possibly the Norway incident was a non magnum happening as well).
b) It seems that all accidents didn't happened at the first two shot.(Except for the african one). In fact two of them occurred when the shooter was looking for a five shot groupment.
c) As far as I know THREE of them were using the SAME bullet (not the same ammo brand but the bullet) and as a reloader since many years ago I can tell that some bullet with the same charge when fired will raise the pressure and the temperature far more than other. Also some of them will shed some of the jacket very significantly.... But you already know all of this... The important thing to remember is that this pattern are very similar to an everyday or normal sight in for most of us excepting (I think) the ones that attempt a five shot group. I never do it because Steyr´s barrel get really hot specially with monometal bullet and the one I was talking before produce even more heat. At least on my Steyr's Boehler barrel.
So if you sum magnum pressure and temperature with an impropper barrel cooling you will obtain a higher pressure. Add to this a bullet that profusely shed its jacket sticking fragments on the grooves obstructing them just a few centímeter from the chamber throat until (after repeated shooting)they become completely "compressed clogged" not letting the next one to be engraved nor advance through the barrel you easily get 10.000 BAR.....That's a lot!...
So as a preventive meassure and in my opinion (that nobody asked I know) for the time being while you don´t have the manufacturer report at hand Blaser owners should stick for a three
shot group and also should clean that bore more
often specially when using "premium" bullet. Just in case.... My two cents...Better safe than sorry...
So which is one of the main culprit in this Blaser Apocalyptical Blown Up?... In my opinion:

The bullet....the bullet....the bullet...
Regards.
Mannlicher7.

Well, I have only two personal points of reference, a .308 LRS2 and a Tac-2 in .338 Lapua; neither a "belted" magnum.

Both now have multiple hundreds of rounds down range with zero problems; rounds hand-loaded 98% of the time.

Many long strings with no cleaning in between,case measurements have been routine, accuracy excellent,with group to group consistency.

Anecdotal evidence, absolutely,
as is my observation of numerous other shooters with other Blasers.

That said, can any rifle be destroyed, yep, and I am sure that their are 12 or so Blasers that have done so.

Just under which circumstances seem to be the issues at hand.

I would think we can agree that The Proof Procedures in Germany are thorough.

I would reasonably expect Blaser to have "tested to destruction" the design, especially in the litigious world of today.

Such thinking lends itself to operator error until proven otherwise;
at least,
in my estimation.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Well, I have only two personal points of reference, a .308 LRS2 and a Tac-2 in .338 Lapua; neither a "belted" magnum.

Both now have multiple hundreds of rounds down range with zero problems; rounds hand-loaded 98% of the time.

Many long strings with no cleaning in between,case measurements have been routine, accuracy excellent,with group to group consistency.

Anecdotal evidence, absolutely,
as is my observation of numerous other shooters with other Blasers.

That said, can any rifle be destroyed, yep, and I am sure that their are 12 or so Blasers that have done so.

Just under which circumstances seem to be the issues at hand.

I would think we can agree that The Proof Procedures in Germany are thorough.

I would reasonably expect Blaser to have "tested to destruction" the design, especially in the litigious world of today.

Such thinking lends itself to operator error until proven otherwise;
at least,
in my estimation.

+1

Again personal experience -

I personally have literally approaching 20k rounds through my various R93 barrels from .17 Rimfire to .223 to 416 Rem Mag.

Ammunition has been 95%+ personal reloads.

Reloads are all using quality bullets.

I am not very kind to my barrels (especially during the hot days shooting prairie dogs in the Montana high prairie) with many strings of fire heating up the barrels considerably.

Shooting and hunting at temps from -15 F to over 110 F.

Never an issue of ANY kind with my rifles or the R93s of those who were with me treating theis rifles much the same as I do.

BTW - Most of my fellow hunters and shooters also use the R93 in one form or another.

Any one who is afraid and feels the need to get rid of their R93, please send it to me for disposal!

Heck, I'll even sign a release of liability so you don't have to worry about being sued.

If you don't even own a R93 yet and are that worried about it, buy something else.

Then you can put your worry beads to use on another topic.

YMMV (your mileage may vary!)

quote:

So which is one of the main culprit in this Blaser Apocalyptical Blown Up?... In my opinion:

The bullet....the bullet....the bullet...
Regards.
Mannlicher7.

Mannlicher, The current accident involved a Swift A-Frame and you mentioned mono-metal bullets. What bullet makes/types are you aware of involved in any of the accidents?

Brazos Jack

M7

What was the cause of the Steyr blow up???

I have got some of my Blaser R 93 bbls pretty hot.

I have shot prairie dogs with a 300 Win Mag barrel, and fired more than 5 rounds at a time.

I regularly shoot 5 shot groups without pausing to let the barrel cool down. I shoot 375H&H, 300WM and 7mm RM. I have never fired a factory round through any of my barrels. I am puzzled by the barrel obstruction theory as not long ago, videos were posted showing the behavious of different makes of rifles (Rem 700, Browning, Blaser etc) when shot with a barrel obstruction. The Blaser did not "blow up". Perhaps someone can post a link?
Peter.

http://hunting.about.com/libra...tboltsofcenturye.htm

Original German link(wildundhund) is too long & wont work once pasted. Here's another great link in the mean time.

R93 against M 98: Dreck makes Schreck

In one test, we had checked how much filth the closures of the M 98, and the R93 cope. It appeared to some readers praxisfern. Therefore, we have hidden Cartridges-dummies "the test is repeated.

The R93 sand flies in all directions away and hinders Repetiervorgang not.

Dysfunction hidden in cans would be much earlier occurred when cartridges were found in the magazine, "said one of the statements in the article" Silent slip the dust. " Why did you not test with "dummies", the criticism was that two readers. Helmig from readers Günter W. argwöhnte: "One could get the impression that the sand should not only the weapons closures, but also the eyes of the readers meet (…) It is totally uninteresting, as much cubic centimetres of sand is a closure (without cartridge !) still suggest (…)

Otherwise, I wish every Waidgenossen in the event of the case, in the area that he or in the wilderness of the water jet for quick cleaning also available… ". Gunsmith champion Peter Meihs from N. Criticized: "Whether the closure of a sandy, uncharged weapon can be close or not does not matter. Meaningful it is, the weapons loaded with silt and gradual up by some grain, Sahara total '. The most common practice in the case of sand in the wheels' created by heruntergefallene cartridges or in the dirty bag ammunition. It is well known that the R93 highly sensitive to minimal übermaßige ammunition responding. Even slight pollution levy prevent the shot. "

These can be summarised as follows: Clean with water jet should never really a problem, because either there is water on the ground or you will be in sufficient quantity. However, if all else should tear and the circumstances require a mandatory cleaning, there is still the modest (emergency) stocks from the bubble.

A Repetierer in use with versandeter ammunition cartridges from the pocket or with heruntergefallenen cartridges beschicken means before him with four shots from the R93, or up to five shots from the M 98 to have emptied. Peter, however, has Meihs right. It can always hunting situations, which require an afternoon Grasp.


Cartridges bearing the R93 amended

Overlap of minimal size of the cartridges bearing according to the European norm and CIP maximum allowable under the ammunition (including dissenting) US-led norm in the past, sometimes to the problems raised. According to poo cart, however, since some time in collaboration with the Beschussamt Ulm cartridges camp set that the tolerances of ammunition U.S. standard digest.

Still, I believe that with filthy weapons should not operate, because those who already guarantees that the sand is not even classified dirt over. But to counteract Anwürfen, you would have to practice by experimenting or even something to hide, the trials again with pulverlosen cartridges in .30-06 caliber. The first phase saw Laden and Repetieren with versandeter ammunition. This worked both systems (with abrasive noises at the close) smoothly.
The second phase involved the Berieseln the locks with sand and durchgeladen and completely filled with magazine. The "sand pile" on the closure of the R93 piece was to keep the Geradezugs in no way affect, because the fine grains found on the sliding surfaces do not hold, therefore either flew away or rieselten magazine in the shaft. Feeding and eject cartridges were opposed as quickly as if there is no sand.

Quite different for the M 98: The second resulted cartridge still, but the renewed Repetieren already required considerable effort, and the following attempt was the end of it. Now jammed in the chamber of leguminous bridge and did not Mucks more. The fatality was it the game of many highly Back at the drawing. It leads to great resistance at almost inevitably to tilting and therefore keilen the sand grains. The first operation was therefore already a dead patient.

On the other hand, digested both the R93 yet another complete passage as a separate Berieseln the magazine filled with sand. Problems with the feeder came here until after that and again leerrepetiert numbers. Blame wore the sand layer in the bottom of the Magazinschachtes, because the magazine pushed upwards. But after emptying the floor rate was the original state restored, and the rifle was as usual and repeated feuerbereit. Contrary to popular opinion is, moreover, the closure of the R93 forcibly and does not depend on spring force. Once the closure head on resistance, spreads itself to form the sleeve and locked by the forward motion of the Kammergriffs.

For security reasons, in turn, is the weapon only in full verriegeltem state to fire. For this, the Chamber handle in front of place. And he did just that during the entire test series.

Although the R93 their dirt resistance impressive evidence, and the legend of this system 98 could scratch, nothing will change the fact that dirt makes Schreck and not to be taken lightly.

Also read $ (LB: the first part of the test.)

This is the inner life after extensive silting. The sliding surfaces of the R93 (above) are functional and schmutzfrei


PICTURE-1
The R93 sand flies in all directions away and hinders Repetiervorgang not.

PICTURE-2
This is the inner life after extensive silting. The sliding surfaces of the R93 (above) are functional and schmutzfrei


http://www.testfakta.se/img/2007/8/23/16464.pdf

http://www.testfakta.se/Article.aspx?a=16350

Brazos Jack:
As far as I know some of the bullets involved were A-Frame,Sciroco,KJG,Barnes X and Failsafe. All were factory ammo excepting one of the Barnes and one A-Frame.
I'am about to try a Yugoslavian bullet that is almost pure copper with a small portion of lead very similar to the Rhino bullet....I think I would let my pesky neighbor shoot it first...
Mannlicher7.