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Hey fellers, long time no see, been away from the forums for a year or so, good to be back. I posted this yesterday, way too long, sorry, will edit for clarity: I traded "some safe junk" last week for a 7 rem mag, Interarms Mark X. So far my research has revealed this about the rifle: Made in 1976 by Zastava of Yugoslavia apparently a commercial Mauser type. Zastava has interesting history, armorer for close to two centuries for Europe. Probably made "real" Mausers at some point. Also made the "Yugo" Automobile. (someone please correct me if any of this is wrong) With only a swipe of two of Hoppes down the barrel, it shot aprox a 3to4 inch group. This was after walking the newly affixed scope in,(say, 10-12 rounds) I mention this as that group was not difinitive, as I was tired, pressed for time so on. Important note: 1st range session was with Federal Premium, 160 gr. Gamekings. Very flat primers, somewhat stiff bolt lift. This is alarming! Also, before purchasing this rifle, checked overall chamber length (length to lands) with Stoney point tool. Throat is quite short. Will not have load long to reach lands. I took this as a good sighn. Took it home, have been working on it all week. Copper kept coming out with sweets for hours. Finaly clean patches. Rubbed the bore good with JB also. Carfully glass bedded walnut stock to action. Bedded under chamber also Barrel floats. Inked behind bolt lugs, inserted fired case, closed bolt. Repeat two or three times. I do not know if this a reliable test of bolt lugg contact. Ink was rubbed off 90% both sides. I took this as another good sighn. Questions: Any information re: reputation of 70's era Mark X's. Liklyhood of it having a decent barrel? What might be up with the flattened primers and stiff bolt, which I of course take to be a sighn of excessive pressure? (I have a hypothothese on that which is as such: On the box of Federal Premium cartridges, is listed velocities. I checked these velocities against a Nosler reloading manual, and I see that Federals numbers are up there right around Noslers max loads for a 160 grain bullet. So I posit that sooting these round in this old Mauser clone is the equivilent of reloading to published Maximum for the fist tests, instead of working up.) Could I be on to anything here? If so, I'll just load up some new Norma brass to a lighter spec. and see what happens. Thank you gents for any input, Clayman | ||
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A local hobbiest stockmaker who made my first custom stock used an inexpensive Mark X 270 for deer hunting, shot one-half MOA. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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This happens when working up a load but a factory load should not do that. I have seen it happen with a new Savage in 270 WSM and factory loads however. Is the bolt lift effort on the first effort or later as the bolt opens and it this the extraction cam? One can mean high pressure and the other a rough chamber or other problems. Maybe the only problem is a short throat but.... Do what Allen said and clean and tighten it some more. When you shoot it let it cool. Three shots are enough for groups now. Not sure if you have dies or not but one can load ammo without 7mm RM dies. Just buy some brass and load it up light with the COL to fit that throat. You can seat bullets with some other die. A heavy smooth chamfer on the neck is required for this. Another alternative is to return the gun for a refund in that factory ammo seems too hot. That's a valid complaint. I like to work on them in general but if a barrel must come off that's no deal. Join the NRA | |||
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I had a Winchester M70 once that was a great shooter, but I couldn't get anywhere near the maximun load in a reloading manuel. It seemed a little hot with a factory loads too. Never blew a primer, but it was always a little sticky on the bolt lift. I just dropped a grain when reloading and it never was a problem. I had a beat up MarkX in a .270 once. Nothing to look at but, it was a true tac-driver. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Thanks for the replies guys. Yes, I handload for an old pawn shop Savage 110 in 7mm rem mag, which I rebarreled. Original barrel was very long throated, accuracy was poor, and that barrel was very rough and gathered a lot of copper fast. I put on a Douglas Premium bull barrel, tactical McMillan stock. Heck of shooter when I neck size with Redding competition and seat with the same. fo this rifle I use carfully sorted Norma brass. Also load for a 1903 Mannlicher Shoenauer carbine, 6.5x54. Now thats a sweet rifle. And lastly a Savage VLP in 204 Ruger, but havn't had a lot of time to putz with it yet. So about this Mark X, I have removed the little bit of old rotton epoxy and carefully rebbedded the entire action. This was only my third bedding job, and it came out better than I could have hoped. Guess I'm learning. Rifle was intirely disasembled and degreassed, trigger group, bolt everything. Then a little tough up with cold blue here and there, didn't really need much. The floorplate I will Parkerize, as it is in pretty bad shape, almost entirely white and I have solution left from a 1911 pistol build last christmas. So, if those Fed premiums are loaded a bit long, they might be jamming the bullet into the lands, eh? Or maybe she's just short throated. Either way, that means pressure, right? The bolt lift was heavy on the LIFT part, no problem with extraction. Primers VERY flat. Fired brass does not cam back in place esily. So the way things are so far, I would not be able to get away with just neck sizing fired brass. By the way, fired brass from my Savage does not chamber at all, but this is to be expected, correct? I have 50 sticks of new Norma brass, and some 160 TSX, Game Kings, and I think some Accubonds, so lots of choices. Will start on the low side and see what happens. Hey, can excessive copper fouling cause excessive pressure? I mean this thing was fouled!! I am very happy to hear the reports of accuracy with these old Mark X's. I suspect that the close chamber tolerences and short throat are responsible for this, we'll see. Wish me luck, and thanks again. Clayman | |||
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Again, I am sure I have said too much. Apologies. (It's just that I type easily and well, so I tend to ramble) To make it very short: (1) Could excessive copper fouling be the cause of flattened primers and sticky bolt lift? (I kind of doubt it, but I've much to learn) (2) How about a head space issue? (3) Or maybe short throat? If it's short throat, maybe setting the bullets back a few thousandths of an inch would be a remedy? I could try this even with factory rounds, yes? (4) Any ideas of other things that be could causing this? (5) will my Chrono be useful for diagnosing this problem? (I don't see how, but like I said, much to learn) Thanks Clayman | |||
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Could be any of the above mentioned. I'd start by scrubbing the barrel out with some Sweets Bore solvent. Follow the directs and after you're finished clean it again with a milder solvent just to make sure you got all the Sweets out. Try it again. If it's no better, find a gunsmith with a go/no-go gauge for you chamber and have him check it. It should cost too much. When I had the problem with my M70 (it was a 7mag too) it was fixed simply by backing the load down just a little. All guns are different and some just don't like as much powder as others. If the rifle is accurate, I'd just do that and leave it alone. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I have seen factory barreled rifles that were short throated to the point that factory ammo AOL was too long and would increase chamber pressure to the point of excessive pressure signs. I believe this is what you are experiencing with your Mark X. I have a co-worker that has a new Browning A-bolt in 300WSM that he handloads for and the chamber is too short to shoot factory fodder in, and he can only load 165's or lighter because the heavier stuff crowds the case capacity. Dennis Life member NRA | |||
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I have a Mk X 7mm Mag bedded in a McMillan stock. It is very accurate with 140/150 grain Nosler Partitions with H-4831SC powder. I can shoot three shots that measure 5/8" at 100 yards. Bullets are seated .010 off the lands. That's with the factory barrel too. I'll never rebarrel the rifle. Don | |||
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Clayman, your pressure problems may be nothing more than the Federal ammo! I recently bought a new Remington 700 Mountain Rifle chambered for 7-08 Remington. I picked up some Winchester, Remington, Hornady, and Federal factory ammo to try in it. All the other brands were just fine. But, the Federal ammo gave very flattened and cratered primers and very stiff bolt lift. I just stopped shooting them. They were exhibiting bright shiny spots on the case heads from the ejector punger. This was Federal Power-Shok ammo loaded with 150 grain Speer Hot-Cor soft points. High pressures with factory ammo is something that you see sometimes. My dad has a new 7mm WSM and factory Winchester ammo is pretty darned hard to get out of the chamber, stiff bolt lift and slighly flattened primers. R F R Flowers | |||
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I have not gotten back to the range yet with the Mark X, but the new bedding should be well cured, barrel is clean, (it took many scrubbings with sweets) and the stock is refinished. I think she's ready. I did sit down at the loading bench today to see if I could work with the empty Federal brass from the first (and only) short range session. I have 15 sticks, once fired in the Mark X. I wasn't too suprised that the emptys chamber with considerable difficulty, since the extracted with the same difficulty. Just to see, I ran a few of them through the Redding competition neck die. No go. Still barely chamber. Checked those few for length, a couple needded trimmed for length. No prob. Done. Then I ran those same few through my Redding Body die. Still very hard to chamber. Made sure the cases were recieving full penitration into the die, still hard to chamber. Then I switched to my old RCBS full length die. Ran a few of them through with the die set just a little below contact with the sell holder. Nope. No change. So then I screwed the ful length die down more than a full turn past the shell holder. If anything, they were then even HARDER to chamber. I took a couple of such treated case and checked to see if if they would fit into my Savages chamber. No problem. No resistance. What the heck is going on here? Tomarrow I will load a few new Norma sticks with a moderate load of RL 22 and some Game Kings, and see what happens. It would be the pits if the rifle will only shoot factory Ammo. Maybe it's just the Fed Vital Shok's that are going to cause grief, well see. but it seems to me like somethings wrong here. Sure wish I had more experience with this reloading business. Enough at least to diagnose this issue. This is really the first time I've had a problem. Thanks | |||
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Ok, I've done some careful measuring with digital calipers and stoney pt OAL tool. Granted that I don't know what the heck I'm doing, but trying to learn, and figure out whats going on with rifles chamber. The Fed. premium Vital Shoks OAL averages 2.670. The Chamber, with the same Game King 160 gr. bullets measures on average (I did this with several different bullets out of the same box 2.759. So apparently the problem is not such a short throat that the cartridges are jamming the bullets into lands, thereby causing excessive pressure. Using a Stoney Point headspace thingy on the calipers, it is clear that I am able to bump the shoulder back sufficiently to equal SAMMI or new specs. Besides, after full sizing, the slide right into my Savage, which has a new Douglas premium barrel. So thats not the problem. Lastly, I measured at the pressure ring, just directly above the belt. The new unfired Feds are .507. Fired are .514-15. After all my various sizing attempts, we wind up at, well 513. Remember, then they will slide into the Savage chamber. But maybe thats not impotant. They will only BARELY chamber into the Mark X, and only with far too much effort.Anyway, as far as I can tell, the only dimension that I am not affecting, in spite of my best efforts, are at the pressure ring. So I am left to deduce that either I have a headspace issue, or these Fed Vital Shoks, are just to warm for this rifle. (as has been previously suggested. Remidies I can think of: Purchase some other factory ammo, (and I guess I'll start there, but I sure like Federal Brass, alost as much as Norma, but not quite) Load up some new brass and start working up loads Spend 50 buck at Brownells on a set of headspace guages? One more thing, I see no indicaion of case head seperation, or yellow ring near the belt. I have not hack-sawd a case in half yet, though I did make "probe" out of a paper clip and caefully felt for the tell-tale "groove", nothing. Thank you all for you comments, please continue And Mr. Flowers, I indeed hope you are correct that the only problem here is the Federal ammo. I started with Federal as it is the only brass other than Norma I wish to reload. Pity if I can't use it. Clayman | |||
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You might check the case head diameter of the fired ones against some unfired ones. Possibly the short throat along with high tempratures (??).. I suggest trying a different brand of ammo. | |||
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Well, I measured at the pressure ring but I take it you mean the head (belt?) itself? I can do that. As far as a diffent brand, yes, an option of course, it's just that I prefer Federal brass to all others for 7 mag, except for Norma, so I was hoping to be able to reload the Federal brass, but apparently not. Thanks Clayman | |||
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This is really strange. My brother has a Mark X 7 Mag that exhibits the exact same problems. In fact, I have gotten rid of two sets of 7 mag dies because I thought they were the problem. Hope you find a solution. | |||
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Did your brother find any ammo that he could shoot in it? I have yet to try working up a load in new brass. Did you guys try that and what were the results? I don't want a rifle that destroys brass, and wont keep it if that turns out to be the case. I'm finnaly going to have time to get back to the range tomarrow, and will see what happens with some moderatly loaded handloads with new Norma brass. Also will try some rem green box. Thanks | |||
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Be really careful of that rifle until you find out the reason for the high pressures. I hesitate to post some that I am thinking of so as not to spoil your fun. I would make sure that the bore is really clean and then slug the barrel. Make the slug part of the slug that is a tiny bit over groove diameter very narrow and the fore and aft portions of the slug a little less than bore diameter so as not to get it stuck in the barrel. Also make sure that the chambers neck diameter is sufficient by puting a bullet into a fired neck. It should go in loose. If someone has a chronograph it would be intgeresting to see what the velocities are. The weather has been very hot of late and that might peak all loads. Join the NRA | |||
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Thanks for the reply and thoughts Savage99. Please feel free to share your thoughts, as even if this rifle turns out to be a stinker, I will have had the fun of learning what makes a dud! For me it's all about the knowledge and the shooting. I was able to get out the range today, so here is an update. I stoped at the local supplier and picked up a box of Rem greenbox 150 gr. corlockt shells. Also had with me a box of handloads, These were new RP brass, 160 gr. Nosler Accubond, Fed Match Primer, 61gr RR22. This was some stuff I had loaded for my Savage when I rebarreled it. It was not particulary acurate, so I never shot the last 15 or so. Keep in mind that Nosler says begin at 59gr.and 63 is max. I figured that was "moderate enough" to be safe. I started with the 150gr corelocts. It took the better part of 1/2 a box to get the cheap scope to behave. (I got this rifle for my 20 year old nephew to go on his first deer hunt with us this fall, so I have been reluctant to take my Sightron target or my Leopold of one of my other rifles.) By the time I got her shooting close enough to 2 of 3 inches high, I had 7 rounds left out of 20. I put 6 of those 7 exactly into a one inch group. No smaller, no larger. One flyer 1/2 inch high. Other than the fact that the scope gave me grief getting there, and also that EACH AND EVERY cartridge chambers a bit stiff and rough, I was very pleased. Oddly, some of them chambered with a hair more difficulty than the others. None was real bad, but none chambered as eaisily as new Norma brass. Whats up with this? Also, primers looked much better. Not flattened at all like with the Federal Premium Vatalshok. Then I cleaned the bore well, took my time. Sweets, brush, many scrubbings. This bore is not very smooth, she does pick up the copper. Then I chambered one of the above mentioned handloads, and to my suprise, quite stiff on the camming it in. Not horrible, but sure not right. I probably shouldn't have, but I fired it. Kicked like a mule. Four inches high, two to the right. (the factory corelocts were shooting 3 inches high, dead nuts) Very stiff extraction. Very flat primer. I said screw it, packed her up and came home. And yes, by then it was pretty hot, probaby 80. Might have been early 70's when I started. So when I got home, checked the forum to see if anybody has any ideas, and, found what is quoted below. Thanks. After reading your comments, I did indeed try a bullet in a fired unsized case. Plenty loose. I'll have to do some studying up to learn how to slug the bore, never done that before. But what with so many unfired, new cases chambering with some difficulty, I was thinking that there is some issue with the camber dimentions. With this in mind, I incked a fired case, let it dry, then inserted it into the chamber in an attempt to determine where the resistance is coming from. After camming the bolt closed, then extracting the inked case, there are long scratches from the shoulder to the belt. Also one very rubbed of area the size of a matchhead or a little bigger just above the belt, at the pressure ring. I think I should try this with a new case, one that fits to tight. I'll do this tomarrow. So, after hearing all the above blah blah, still think I should slug the barrel? And please Savage 99, don't worry about spoiling my fun, if you got a horror story to share, lets here it!! Any body else? Clay-dont know much-man, in Central Oregon
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A few days ago hard initial bolt lift and very poor accurcy was the problem. Today it's hard chambering and very good accuracy and no mention of pressure signs with a moderate load. I still don't know what the expansion on the belt is on new brass or the velocity. What kind of dies do you have? Are they set to the shell holder or adjusted for partial FL? Are there scratches in the chamber? That rifle is very accurate and you are a good shot. For a factory rifle to put 6 shots in one moa from a hot barrel is outstanding. Go easy on the handloads til you get more information. For all I know they put a .270 barrel on it! Guns like yours are a lot of fun and you have a first down now. Be careful though and don't rush it. Join the NRA | |||
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Three thousands expansion on a belt is too much. Those cases are very strong there. Now that its bedded it's going to be harder to return. Slug the barrel but don't get anything stuck in there. Join the NRA | |||
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Thank you sir. I will find out how to slug the barrel. But please, what am I looking for? I have a strong suspicion that you have a strong suspicion of what the problem is with this rifle. Clayman | |||
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When looking at a rifle we check all of the obvious things in order of how easy it is. You find something in the last place that you look for it. If the ammo is at all reasonable then I suspect that the barrel might be undersize. You say that a bullet went into a fired case neck. It should really fall in and not be tight. What I have been trying to think of is how you can make a lead slug, without having a lathe, that will not get stuck in the barrel. If you can get a .30 caliber cast bullet somehow then put your 3/8 electric in a bench vise. Spin the bullet and file it down til it enters the bore easily from the muzzle. Now put the bullet back into the chuck backwards and file it's diameter down the same except for the very end of the bullet. Leave that a diameter of maybe .286" or so. That .286" section should only be a 1/16" wide or so. Lubricate your bore with some oil. Then push that slug into the bore just a tiny bit and push it out. No sense getting it stuck yet. Measure it. If the major diameter is around .284" then it may be a 7mm. Don't force it as the bore may be smaller. I make my slugs on a lathe and put the large diameter in the middle so it rides better. A collet holds it without marking it also. By the way what cartridge did the factory mark the barrel as? The other alternative is to bring the gun back to where you got it and say that its not safe and get your money back. If the bedding work does not show you have then added value. If the seller wants to have a smith look at it then thats good. Join the NRA | |||
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Savage 99, Bullets do indeed "fall" into a fired case mouth. Barrel is marked 7mm Remington Mag. I will see about slugging the barrel today. I keep coming back to a chamber issue what with most brass chambering with some difficulty in the first place. Again, thanks heaps for you interest and time in this. Very good of you to assist. Clayman | |||
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I got a good look inside the last few inches from the muzzle this am. Very pitted and rough. To heck with it, I stripped it down, packed it up, shipped it off to Pac Nor, after calling them of course. Would have rather dumped the cash on a real Mauser, but the descision has been made. Always wanted to try a GOOD barrel. Clayman | |||
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Call PacNor and ask them to take a look at it what with the pressure problems. Join the NRA | |||
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I have the same rifle in .30-06 and it's a tack driver with handloads. The headspace is so much greater than my Dads Remington that my shells won't chamber in his rifle and his won't fire in mine! Nate | |||
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