I will be buying one of either a 300 win mag or a 300wsm in either a Tikka 695 S/Syn or a Tikka T3 S/Syn respectively.

I am leaning more towards the wsm as the T3 is considerably lighter and would make a better light weight setup but my gut feeling is that the 300 win mag is a better all rounder, especially as there is a much greater range of factory loaded ammo world wide and in Australia at this stage.

As far as the rifles are concerned I have a slight preference for the outgoing Tikka 695 which to me feels like a more refined thing than the T3. But it is a considerably heavier unit and therein lies another advantage and that is recoil would be considerably less than a T3 which weighs just over 6lbs.

Any advice from any one which would help with my choice??

If you handload then the rimless case will have a better chamber than a belted case. The brass will fit better also.

As to the rifles however if your going to shoot 180's then those guns kick like heck.

For myself I would get the lighter rifle and just load it down bullet weight wise to fit the game. If I were to hunt some really big stuff I would have to bite the bullet.

I've loaded at least 7,000 rounds of .300 Win. Mag. over the last ten years, and if you set the sizing die properly to headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt, you'll have absolutely no problem with the belted case. I load my cases three times and toss 'em. These anti-belt alarums are more theory than substance, and sound better on paper than in practice.

I've worked with a couple of .300 WSM rifles recently. Recoil wise, they feel about like a .300 Win. Mag.; deliver about 100 fps. less velocity with bullets of the same weight; and since they're short and fat, they simply don't feed as well as the belted .300 Win. Mag. The half-inch shorter bolt throw they offer is a rather skimpy and lame trade-off.

Quite honestly, the most important role (my opinion only) that the WSM cartridges have filled is as a marketing vehicle for new rifle and ammunition sales.

Performance-wise, I'll still take the 1963 .300 Win. Mag. any day of the week. It's served me well on many hunts for a wide variety of big game animals, and it's performance and reliability has been nothing short of superb.

AD

My 300 WSM is the Model 70 Laminate stock model.

It does not kick like crap

It feeds beautifully

It shoots 180 gr Barnes TSX's into 1/2 Moa groups with boring monotony

If you are worried about 100 fps with the same bullet vs the Win Mag then you should be shooting a bigger gun

I reload my cases 10 times and still they seem fine, use a redding full length bushing die with the expander button removed
If I threw away cases after 3 reloadings as much as I shoot I'd be broke

If the 300WSM came before the Win Mag would anyone have ever invented the Win Mag? Would we be having exactly the opposite arguement?

I feel the main advantage of the WSM is that you can get .300 mag performance in a lighter, handier rifle. That being said, my first choice for a lighter, handier rifle is not a .300 mag, and that is because of recoil. I do own a Browning Composite Stalker in .300 WSM and this is a wonderfully handy little gun compared to my current .300 Win Mag, which is a Rem 700 w/ a 25 inch barrel. The recoil w/ 180 grain bullets is NOT as bad as that of a .300 Win Mag M70 that was over 1 lbs heavier that I got rid of a while back, but it is still pretty hefty. This may have more to do with stock design that the cartridge, though. My current .300 Win Mag has a muzzle break, so cannot compare WSM recoil to it. I have not had any feeding issues with my .300 WSM Browning OR my .270 WSM Model 70. If I could only have one, I would probably lean towards the tried and true .300 Win Mag (after all, you are buying a magnum, so might as well go for the extra case capacity), though the factory ammo I clocked for the .300 WSM is right on target, and I don't think I've ever clocked .300 Win Mag factory ammo that met published numbers. Could have been bad luck on my part and it has never been a big deal because I load my own, but something to note.

-Lou

There's no doubt in my mind. The .300 Win. mag. Find one with a 26" barrel and velocity will be where it should be.
My Win. M70, a Walmart special blind magazine and plastic stock (Please change the recoil pad if you ever get one. The one that comes with it is as hard as the rock of Gibralter.) will put three rounds into one inch at 100 yards using the Nosler partition. With a Speer 200 gr. Hot-core, groups drop to .75". This is with my selected handloads, that are definitely not on the wimp side.
I once had the oppotunity to shoot a M70 classic with laminated stock in .300 WSM. The gun definitely kicked less than mine, but was about a pound and a half to two pounds heavier. Accuracy with factory ammo was superbs at gthe .60" group I shot. (Three shots) I'd have shot two more for a five shot group, but it wasn't my rifle and the gentleman that was kind enough to let me try it dictated on how many rounds I could shoot.
Would I buy a .300 WSM? Probably not. I already have two .300 Win. mags, so I don't see the need. I have no problem with belted cases as I set my dies up to headspace the brass on the shoulder. If one takes the trouble to "mike" the width of a few belts on those cases, the disparity from one case to another is totally unacceptable. They don't strengthen the case and they don't do a decent job of headspacing. Just set you dies up to headspace on the shoulder and forget about it.
Something tells me that a 6.5 pound .300 WSM will kick the holy living snot out of you, even if you add another pound or so of scope sight and mount.
My advice? Pick the one you like best and don't worry about it.
Paul B.

FWiw--I picked up t-3 in 300 win mag at the shop the other day. Man was it light. I wouldn't want a lighter gun than that chambered in a 30 cal magnum unless it was ported or muzzle breaked somehow!!

Regarding recoil: this must be one of the most exaggerated things of all time!



I first thought that my dad's 30-06 with 200 grain bullets kicked pretty badly. Then I got my first rifle of my own - a 300 Win Mag. I was terrified when I first brought it to the shooting range. But, it was a "disappointment", at least recoil-wise.



Then I fired some shots with my brother's 9.3x62, a "renowned" hard-kicker. No problemo.



Finally I laid my hands on a beautiful Remington 700 in 458 Win Mag which I bought (and later, last year, shot my first and, thus far, only Swedish moose with). Now I was convinced that I was facing a rifle that it would take lots and lots of practice to get used to. And BOY was I up for the challenge!



Guess what? After first firing one shot with a 350gr bullet, and then another one with a 500gr bullet, I was VERY disappointed! Again, recoil-wise.



I'm now convinced that it will take a Weatherby 378+ to shake me around to the point where shot placement will be a problem.



What I'm trying to say is not that the 300 Win Mag or 458 dito are light kickers. But don't believe in what other people say (including me)! Fire ten, twenty, or fifty round yourself, and then make up your mind.

I currently own 2 of each, either way is a good choice. In reading your post I would think that the primary factor in your choice will be availability of the brass.
The performance differences almost directly correlate to the difference between the 30-06 and 308. As I see it here are the strengths and weaknesses of both:
300 Win Mag:
1. Probably all things being equal and when both are loaded to the same pressure the 300 win is about 50-100fps faster in the same length barrel. It also more often available in 26" length for Higher velocity.
2. The 300 win is throated to shoot 200 and 220gr bullets better than the WSM.
3. Greater world wide availability with factory ammo.
-Favorite load(s) 75-77grs of RL-22 with a 180gr partition, 3150 in 26in barrel, 3100 in 24in (note: 77grs is too hot in some rifles fine in others - I've shot it in at least 6)

300 Winchester Short Mag:
1. Short Action Cartridge - The shorter bolt throw is useful if you are used to shooting 7-08,308 etc. and like to work the bolt from your shoulder without getting hit in the nose. However I think that the T3 uses the same overall action length for all rounds and so it's not a true short action.
2. Feeding advantages of not having a rim are somewhat negated by the short fat case. My stainless M-70 didn't feed well from the box but I worked it over and now it will feed even empty cases perfectly -no BS.
3. The 300 WSM is inherantly more accurate. The 300 win is an accurate cartridge but the 300wsm is even more so. However they are close enough that rifle quality is just as large a factor as case design.
4. Brass Quality. While there is certainly excellent quality brass available for the 300win there is also some not so good out there. All the brass out for the WSM is excellent, its all made on new machinery etc.......
5. It seems to be the wave of the future (or it's a passing fad). Some people just are in the mood to try the latest.
6. Commonality with other new rounds. The 300 WSM won't do anything that several other 30's won't do. The 270 WSM however......
7. I think that the T-3's come with scope mounts (in Australia?). The 695's mounts can be a bit costly but I don't think there is a scope mount much better than an Optilock -just be sure and get the correct bases.
- Favorite load M-70 likes 69.0 RL-22 and 180 Partition, HS Precision like 71.0 gr RL-22 and 180 Barnes Triple Shock. The M-70 shoots 1/2-3/4 MOA to 300yds the HS shoots 1/4to1/2 to 200 (Haven't shot it at 300 yet).

Summary: After all that you should buy the one that fits you best.

Pop,

My load is 65.0 grains of IMR4350 with a FED210 primer in winchester cases, 180 gr TSX (the new 4 ring one) seated to 2.860 which is .040 off the lands in my chamber. Velocity is 2972 @ 50 degrees and standard deviation is in the single digits. The only thing done to the rifle was to have the trigger worked over and have it pillar bedded, 2 things I believe are mandatory on any new gun.

I agree with AD on this one, the .300 win mag in the long term is the better option, I just do not really see the benfit of the .300 WSM and I reckon the .300 win mag would still be able to push say a 220 gr bullet at better speeds, which would make it more versatile.

Thanks everyone for the imput. There are some very valid points for both rounds. It was not an easy decision but I have bought the 300 Wsm in a Tikka T3. I know that particular rifle is really a long action but a combination of the rifle weight and smoothness of the bolt action more than make up for that.

Brass is no problem here in Australia although i will not be reloading for it initially. For deer hunting that I do, I will be using 150gn Winchester ballistic tips and either tha 180gn power points or the 180gn failsafe for anything heavier. That is of course providing the rifle shoots reasonable groups with these factory loads. As I gather brass I will reload for it.

Just looking at Winchester's specs for the 300wsm vesus the 270wsm I was amazed to see that the 300 is almost as flat as the 270. Obviously the trade is increased recoil.

PC - I also thought that 220gn projectiles in the 300wsm would be disadavantaged over the 300 Wim Mag but if you look at Nick Harvey's latest reloading manual that is not the case and in fact most of the time the velocities of the short exceed the 300 Win mag by 30-40fps.

MLG, Congrats I hope you love the new rifle. I would like to hear back what Kind of accuracy etc. you get from the Tikka. I'm also curious about how the included mounts hold up to a sprightly caliber. Also if you don't mind telling I would like to know how much it set you back in Austrailia.

Have fun..............DJ

MLG,

may be it will turn out to be the better option mate. Good luck with it, will you handload some woodleigh's in it ??

I have loaded and shot both cart. several times and I believe you made the right choice w/ the 300 WSM. I have the Savage model 16 Weather Warrior in 300 WSM and it is far more accurate than the Browning 300 win that I traded for it. It is also more accurate than any of my shooting buddies 300 wins.

The case is much more efficient and allows you to acheive the same velocities w/ less powder. Since they are more eff. they have less deviation inbetween rounds. This is not just my opinion, it is pure fact: If you have a more efficient load w/ less deviation, you will acheive better acccuracy in the same grade barrels.

Good Luck w/ that new Rifle.

Reloader

MLG,

You might want to give Reloder 19 a try. With 70-71 grains of R19 and Hdy 165 grn SSTs it will make one hole at a 100.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Congrats on the new rifle! I believe it should serve you well.

Re: WinMag capable of higher velocity than WSM
Wiht both loaded to SAAMI max they are very near equal. With 190gr Match Kings in my .300WSM 26" barreled custom I easily achieve the velocity of the very hot loaded US military A191 cartridge fired in 26" barreled tactical rifles. My RL22 WSM charge is several grains lighter at 68.5 gr. Also .300WSM handloads with the 220 gr Match King equal the old L.E. WinMag 2650 fps.

If there really were a 100 fps difference the game animal would never know to well beyond the range that only a very few are capable of. To 300 yds it is my firmly held opinion that none of the .30 mags have any advantage on game over the lowly .308Win.


Re: belted vs unbelted
I have loaded many rounds for both and am of the opinion that the advantage of the unbelted case is overstated.

I shot a bunch of 300 win mag (6-10 different rifles) and currently own 2 300 WSM's. I haven't logged all of my data yet, and so it can't be considered statistically valid. Preliminary findings do appear to show the 300WSM shooting much more consistantly shooting shot to shot.
To totally prove this however I think one would need to shoot several hundred rounds apiece in a number of different rifles, using several different bullets and powders. Both of mine shoot much to well with RL-22 and 180gr bullets to make me very exited about experimenting too much more......DJ