Hi Guys,

This summer I hunted Zambia with my 35 Whelen. It took Leopard, Kafue Lechwe, Warthog, Bushbuck, Leichtenstein Hartebeest and Oribi. They were all taken with Nosler Custom Ammo, 250 gr. NP @ 2,550 fps. advertised.

I am thinking of having some heavier bullets loaded. Which would you choose for this caliber, (going the slower velocity than the 250s): 270 NF, 275 PP Woodleigh, or the 280 SAF?

Or others?

Thank you in advance for any opinions, advice & suggestions.

Surefire7, I am curious as to why you wanted to try a heavier bullet. Did you feel you didn't get adequate penetration or just experimenting? I stopped at 250s with mine because after shooting a few heavies I didn't feel I was gaining an advantage.

Regards,

Smallfry,

As you said, just experimenting.

I have no complaints with the 250NP. Works great!

As the Colonel and Keith suggested, the Whelen was designed (the Colonel) and appreciated (Keith) with bullets of 275 gr. and higher, with a 1/12 twist.

My rifle is 1/12 twist, 23" barrel, so it will handle the heavier bullets.

I guess what I am wondering is, if the tough bullets I mentioned will open up and expand at the lower velocities of the heavier bullets, and not act like solids almost. I should add that I would be shooting at 300 yds or less, and more than likely 95% of the time, 50 to 150 yards.

Thank you for your reply.

Cool, I have shot the wdly and got decent expansion but never went with heavier then 250s. I eventually dumped my 35 whln because I got bored with it. If I do another med length 35 I would do a 358 Norma. I loaded for Kiles 358 Norma and that rifle was no slouch. I think it would be better suited for heavies if a guy was inclined to use them. Is there any chance I can knock on your front door with a black book and convert you to accepting the 9.3x62 in your life?

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Smallfry,

As you said, just experimenting.

I have no complaints with the 250NP. Works great!

As the Colonel and Keith suggested, the Whelen was designed (the Colonel) and appreciated (Keith) with bullets of 275 gr. and higher, with a 1/12 twist.

My rifle is 1/12 twist, 23" barrel, so it will handle the heavier bullets.

I guess what I am wondering is, if the tough bullets I mentioned will open up and expand at the lower velocities of the heavier bullets, and not act like solids almost. I should add that I would be shooting at 300 yds or less, and more than likely 95% of the time, 50 to 150 yards.

Thank you for your reply.

My experience with 280 Swift's @2450fps is that the bullets all look the same,,25yds or 300yds the bullet looks just like the 1 in the Swift advertising. Always perfect and usually under the hide on the opposite side,they will exit on occasion but not as a rule. I have a Crown Royal bag with a big handfull of recovered 280's.

Waterrat, thanks for the information. That is essentially what I was wanting to know. Good to know the bullets all opened up nicely at that velocity.

Smallfry, there seem to be a lot of 35 caliber fans on this website, and I am one as well. I agree with you on the 358 Norma being a great match for the heavier bullets. I do not have one, but am contemplating having one of my two newly acquired Ruger SS/syn 338s rebored/rechambered to 358 Norma. The least accurate of the two gets converted

I have always been fascinated with Leslie Simpson's recommendation of a 35 caliber cartridge shooting a 275 gr. bullet at 2500 fps as the ideal African 'all around' rifle way back in the 1920s. This was the rifle/cartridge he commissioned Griffin & Howe to make which of course ended up being the 350 G&H, which came darn close (2440 fps I believe).

I realize that with today's powders/bullets, this can easily be achieved, and the 358 Norma seems like the best bet today. However, I also wonder how close I can get with the Whelen, with its shorter barrel(22") and lighter weight rifle, which I would prefer. If I can get 2450 fps like Waterrat suggested, with consistent mushrooming that he has observed, then maybe I don't need the Norma.

And yes, the spirit has moved me: I own four 9.3x62s and just had Wayne at AHR convert a 5th one to 9.3x66. I really love medium bores and the quest continues. I think I can quit (yeah, right!) when I can get that 35 caliber cartridge, 275 gr.er, at 2,500 fps. Yes, it's a disease...

And finally, which bullet do you gentlemen prefer: 270 NF, 275 WL, or 280 SAF?

Hope this is all fun discussion for you all. It is for me.

Thanks for your opinions!

Getting 2450 in a Whelen with a 280 grain swift would be doing awesome. Swifts are pretty gummy bullets and I kinda steer clear of them anyways. But that's an awesome velo. The Norma runs great in a 22". I think in Kiles rifle we were getting 2700 with a 275? Again the Norma is no slouch. Honestly if the Norma caught on in the USA when it was introduced I think the Whelen would in turn be more popular. The Norma was the first 35 introduced in America since the 35 Newton, it just never caught on here. Canada, and Europe it is more popular. You can still find in expensive Husqvarnas in 358 but I'd have one made. The 338 win mag in a Ruger is a good candidate, the follower would work. 358" bores are on the edge of #2 contours though and I am not sure what contour your 338 has. Make the gun light and balanced.

I would agree, if you were thinking about a 35 Whelen, to just step up to the 9,3x62. It has factory ammunition with a 286gr soft or solid, and is a mainstay in most of the rest of the world. That especially is true of Africa.

No flies, at all on the Whelen; but I looked at both, and chose the 9,3mm round.

Rich

Know a guy who swages down the 286 gr NP 9,3 bullet to .358.

I was getting 2450fps out of a 20" Norma Mag.

My present 35 is a Gibbs and it would do it easy,,I just don't have any Swifts at the moment.

Hornady 286gr swaged easy to 358 and a friend killed 2 brown bears with his Norma that I'd swaged. I'll probably go that route as soon as my fireforming operation is finished.

35's sure are easy to get shooting good!

Jim

I guess I am hoping for more performance than the great 35 Whelen can produce.

Pehaps that 358 Norma may get made yet!

Surefire7 I was very impressed by the Whelen on your safari and I would not play with it too much. Rifles are classed as classics because they work.

Hi Andrew,

Good advice!

Thanks for your insight/response. Yes, we did pretty well with that 35 Whelen and your guiding. I am still blown away every time I look at the pictures of our Leopard.

Thanks again for my two best ever safaris!

Can't wait for #3...

Of course, when I think back to our safari with Andrew last year (2014), I remember my wife's shot on that beautiful Zebra. It went in the chest and out the back side. Can't ask for better penetration.

The load? 338 WM, 275 gr. SAF.

See, this is 2/3s of Mr. Simpson's suggestion: correct weight (275 gr.), correct speed (2,500 fps), and close in caliber (338).

Considering the bullets available in the 1920s, I'll bet this modern 338 load is probably a better 'all around' African rifle than the 'old' 1920s era 350 G&H.

Still, it niggles my mind, and I am a 35 caliber enthusiast.

What I want, and what I need, are at odds here. Why are 'Want & Need' such antagonists?

Perhaps they're not. Perhaps it's simply...Entertainment.

I should just listen to Andrew. But then again...

What you simply need is my 358 Norma barreled action.

I have used the 300 gr. Woodleighs in my .338 on deer, elk, and Cape Buffalo. I like it.

I have used the 280 gr, Swift on one elk, found it a little hard in the 35 Whelen, but sure will penetrate. Might be a good buffalo bullet??

The 310 Woodleigh is an elk killer deluxe and I would not hesitate to use it on buffalo..Its my go to thick shangle elk round.

But putting experimentation aside, and I do love to test bullets to their limits..A buffalo cartridge should be a .416 or better, and the 250 gr. bullets in the 35 Whelen and .338 are probably the best choices, I like the Nosler 250 gr. partition about as well as any.

Ray,

Thank you for your response.

This is getting to the crux of what I am looking for information wise.

You said the 280 SAF might be a little tough for the velocities a Whelen can produce. You also stated the 310 Woodleigh perfomed well for you.

The 310 WL has to be going slower than the 280 SAF. So this tells me the softer WL, while heavier, would probably open up more on plainsgame, whereas, the SAF, being a tougher bullet may not, and therefore a better bullet for Buffalo (if one wishes to hunt Buffalo with a 35 Whelen). Am I quoting/interpreting you correctly?

I agree fully with you on selection of a Buffalo cartridge. I have only hunted Buffalo with a 375 H&H, 404 Jeffery and 458 Lott. My last two Buffalo hunts have been with the 404, which I seem to be leaning towards now. However, for me, it's nice to know that if one has a Whelen in his hands while hunting plains game, and something nasty appears around the corner, one may not be ideally armed, but at least perhaps minimally adequately armed, with the correct bullet helping matters immensely.

In my Dakota Whelen, which I used this summer in Zambia, I have two loads that shoot to the same POI at 100 yds: 280 SAF and 275 A-SQ solids, as loaded for me by Superior Ammo. I guess I think of these as my 'Buffalo' loads should I ever need them, such as my 404 going down for some reason while on safari. However, like you I suppose, I see the Whelen as mainly my plains game rifle. I used the 250 NP exclusively on all my animals, except the Buffalo with my 404 (400 gr. SAF).

Thanks again Ray for your advice.

I have a Ruger 77R in that caliber it is wonderful medicine on damn near anything.

I have yet to try bullets heavier than 220. My father has recoil issues and for most of the time I have owned this rifle he has claimed it is his and shot the every living piss out of it.

I don't know what twist my Ruger is, but I'd like to try some 270-300 grain projectiles for it. It would have more sectional density than a 9.3x62 with those same weight bullets.

I have several Ruger SS/syn in 35 Whelen and at 7 lbs. exactly, I just love them. 1/12 twist.

Happy Days!

Have you chrono'd that Nosler load? be curious how close it was to advertised fps.

BaxterB,

I have not.

Surefire7,

Please try the 275gr woodleighs PP. I've been using them for years now in my brown whelen. Killed lots of bears and never recovered a single bullet. Only had one bear move any distance at all. About 20 yards. Great bullet with .307sd and 450BC. I'd love to know what velocity you get in a standard whelen. I'm getting a little over 2500fps in the brown and I'm not pushing it very hard. I'm thinking in a standard whelen 2400 to 2450 should be doable.

I have been using a .35 Whelen for 20+ years now. and 225 grain Barnes X has done a good job on elk and deer.

Is the desire to use heavier bullets based on any thing other than a desire to use heavier bullets?

Yentna River: Thanks for your recommendation.

I like the SD of 307 and BC of 450. I need to try these bullets some day!


CHC: As I stated earlier, I am just experimenting.

I have not shot anything in 35 caliber with bullets heavier than 250 gr.

I posted earlier that I have always been fascinated with Leslie Simpson's 'formula' for the perfect African All-Purpose rifle: 35 caliber, 275 grs., 2,500 fps. Of course, we now have it in several rounds: 358 STA, 358 Norma, and other wildcats and older obsolete cartridges. I am just wondering if the standard Whelen can produce this 'formula' with newer powders, and I was also asking advice on the three bullets that I had posted.

I am a 35 caliber enthusiast. I do wonder, however, since Simpson commissioned G&H to make this round, why he didn't just use a 375 H&H? He stated that he wanted a cartridge to copy the British ones that he had used so successfully in Africa. He commissioned this in the 1920s, so the Holland & Holland was already around. The 350 G&H and the 375 H&H were from the same case and were the same length, so no saving in action length like the 358 Norma.

Maybe like some of us on this forum, he was simply a 35 caliber fan.

I know I don't 'need' a rifle that produces this 'formula'. I just want one. If the Whelen can do it, great!

And if not, then what better excuse to build another rifle??!!

Surefire7,
You interpreted my post 100%, sounds like to me you got it all figured out..

Keep in mind the RN Woodlieghs are softer than the PP Woodleighs, and expand to a greater diemeter, but penetrate less...The 280 Swift is better suited for the 358 Norma IMO, but a good buffalo bullet.this applies, in kind, to the 35 Whelen, 338 Win. and the 9.3x62. The use of a 26 inch and Lothar Walthar barrel will get you another 100 or so FPS, and your in a caliber range wherein every FPS makes these lighter calibers work better with heavy bullets.

I've got a 35 Whelen AI and accidentally loaded the 275 Hawk .035 jacket too close to the lands and got 2430 over the sky screens and had hard bolt lift and excessive case head expansion. Based on this, I'd say 2350 is about max for a 35 Whelen with 275-280 gr bullets, and they probably aren't any better than a 250 NP at 2600, which is perfectly safe in my AI.

Thanks whelenite.

I guess maybe 2,500 fps is a little too much to hope for from a 275/280 gr. bullet in the great 35 Whelen.

The 250 gr. NP @ 2,550 fps has served me very well in my Whelen. I'll continue to hunt with this load mostly.

If I continue down this path, I believe I'll go to the 358 Norma. Looks like a 280 gr. @ 2500 fps would be no problem in this fine cartridge.

The beauty of the Whelen however, is 4 or 5 rounds in the magazine vs. 3, ammo that's easier to buy, less recoil, and mainly (for me at least), a shorter and lighter rifle.

I love my Whelen!!

Thanks everyone for your opinions and advice.

And again, still, it's hard to argue with the 375 Ruger: 300 gr. @ 2,660 fps or 270 gr.@ 2,840 fps.

Same case head size and length as the 358NM (well, standard length).

Better ballistics from 'same' size case.

Legal for DG.

Close to same size and weight rifle as my Whelen (both Rugers).

This cartridge makes it hard to stay loyal to 35 calibers.

The way l see it, which is just a perception mind you, is that what you want the Whelen to do will depend on what you have that is bigger and what you have that is smaller than the 35.
The 35 Whelen is probably the best bush veld caliber bar none, for any size of game, using 225 - 250gr bullets. Want to push the envelope, sure, but you gonna end up trying to play catch up with the 9.3's and 375's. Considering you have a 404 that you can load down to 10.75x 68 specs, that makes the excercise redundant. As you have other more flat shooters, going lighter in the 35 is kinda dumb also.
For walking around the bushveld, the 338 sabi is top dog , the 35 Whelen is as good as if not better for the task.
Fiddling with things is fun, we all get that, so no harm done, but let's let the shoe fit the foot that's doing the walking.

Having said the above, l must confess l've been a slut. I've traded my 35 Whelen for an 8x60 which l intend to load with 225 - 250gr bullets for the same task that the Whelen performed so well for so long. Truth is, us gun guys get bored with things that work well and,......well what can l say, it's hard to be faithful. We change their nature, improve them if we can, but in the end, when they no longer interest us, they're history.

The 8x60 works nicely with 220 grain bullets. Will do so with 250's as well.

A very nice cartridge that not everyone has.

Thanks. I mentioned the 8x60 for two reasons. Firstly to indicate the niche that l believe the Whelen excels in, and of course to indicate my sluttery. 250gr at +- 2400 fps was the golden rule for bushveld hunting until bonded bullets came out, not to say that lesser calibers didn't work, simply they were less reliable. The 9.3 x 62 stepped into the next ballpark, at the time, only because it was slower than the 375, and therefore the bullets didn't break up. These caveats no longer apply, and the 9.3 is basically a fashion statement to own. 250 gr at 2400 fps with plain old bullets still works and 225 gr at 2700 works well with bonded bullets at bushveld ranges. The 375 is the next useable caliber when we enter DG territory, with the 9.3 not really fitting anywhere, a sort of nostalgic wannabe 375. The 318 WR and its close cousins has a hunting niche that fits well, as ever.
I say these things on behalf of all those who have the 9.3 shoved down their throat every time there is a chat about the 338-06 or 35 Whelen or similar.
Sure fire. Don't try to make your Whelen into a 9.3 , its proven itself to you and, as you rightly point out, if you want more, there's a 375 ruger with your name on it somewhere.
For me, well the 318 WR is 8.4x60, so l'm gonna be fiddling with an 8.2x60.
Bon chance

Boet,

Thanks for all of your contributions!

You're right; my Whelen has served me very well as it is. I am probably trying to make it into something it is not.

In truth, I don't need more than the 250 gr. @ 2,550 fps for elk /moose/ bear or for PG in Africa. And I have plenty of DG rifles/calibers for the big boys, so no need for my Whelen for those jobs.

If I do decide some day that I need a fast 35, I'll just build a 358 NM.

Or, use a 375 Ruger...

quote:

Originally posted by boet:
Thanks. I mentioned the 8x60 for two reasons. Firstly to indicate the niche that l believe the Whelen excels in, and of course to indicate my sluttery. 250gr at +- 2400 fps was the golden rule for bushveld hunting until bonded bullets came out, not to say that lesser calibers didn't work, simply they were less reliable. The 9.3 x 62 stepped into the next ballpark, at the time, only because it was slower than the 375, and therefore the bullets didn't break up. These caveats no longer apply, and the 9.3 is basically a fashion statement to own. 250 gr at 2400 fps with plain old bullets still works and 225 gr at 2700 works well with bonded bullets at bushveld ranges. The 375 is the next useable caliber when we enter DG territory, with the 9.3 not really fitting anywhere, a sort of nostalgic wannabe 375. The 318 WR and its close cousins has a hunting niche that fits well, as ever.
I say these things on behalf of all those who have the 9.3 shoved down their throat every time there is a chat about the 338-06 or 35 Whelen or similar.
Sure fire. Don't try to make your Whelen into a 9.3 , its proven itself to you and, as you rightly point out, if you want more, there's a 375 ruger with your name on it somewhere.
For me, well the 318 WR is 8.4x60, so l'm gonna be fiddling with an 8.2x60.
Bon chance

Boet, you seem to be a boerseun after my own heart.

Just remember, BTW that the 8x60 wasn't to increase ballistics, it was because after WW1, German citizens weren't allowed to own military calibres (or so I read), and a quick rechamber allowed things to proceed as before.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Boet,

Thanks for all of your contributions!

You're right; my Whelen has served me very well as it is. I am probably trying to make it something it is not.

In truth, I don't need more than the 250 gr. @ 2,550 fps for elk /moose/ bear or for PG in Africa. And I have plenty of DG rifles/calibers for the big boys, so no need for my Whelen for those jobs.

If I do decide some day that I need a fast 35, I'll just build a 358 NM.

Or, use a 375 Ruger...

You better get workin on that 358 Norma! Great cartridge.

Im sure of one thing if you bump into a big old dagga boy at decent range and all you have is that little bity ole 35 Whelen loaded with a good 250 to 310 bullet pushed fast as you can..Go on and shoot him, he won't make many tracks if you stick the bullet in the right spot...If he charges for some reason know only to dagga boys, tell your PH to handle it, you'll meet him at the truck..

I shoot a 35 AI with 225 swift 25.5" pipe the way it works on AK moose (3) never seen any reason for heavier bullets used 200 gr X on caribou I will say the 358 norma is interesting but it so close to the 35 AI I never did try one. Kevin

Surefire,
By way of explanation on the 250 gr. swift being a tad hard, the bullet was designed for the 358 Norma, and that's why it penetrates so well in the 35 Whelen and its kin...A great buffalo bullet however in the Whelen.

hi mate
Whelan lover here

I have shot Buffalo with 250gr Hornadys which I found good but the 225 RN woodleighs I didn't like so much from further distances.

I only load 250gr now days and use it for Sambar deer while stalking in close. THUMPED


Ive also shot Horses with the 250gr and they piled up on the spot.


I do know what ya sayin about Keith an Colonels initial loads being around 270gr -/+ , for the Whelen , but I believe back then was about Experimenting (as they were with the 400 whelen) and also about having "something different" to what was out there.


back in the day the .270 Winchester was the flat fast hard hitting round, offering faster speeds than 'what was out there'

the 30-06 was the common one

and then things like the Whelen came about, back then its a standard length action, re barrel the old 30 cal and stick "Heavy" projectiles in for that "Magnum performance" on the big game... without the need of a Magnum.



my 2c

cheers

WL

The 35 Whelen combined with a 404 is a perfect combo in elephant, Lion and buffalo country. Why is that? because in a pinch the Whelen will work on the DG animals, whereas a 270, 280, 7x57 "might not" is probably justifiably good reasoning I suppose..I have run into bad tempered or nice trophy buffalo while shooting camp meat, and my .338 worked quit well in the absence of my big bore. It sure won't hurt to have 5 or 6 flat nose solids on hand however..

At any rate that's been my reasoning, probably better yet is the gun of all guns the .375 Holland and Holland as a second rifle. I have used it for this purpose and it may be the best option..I just like the .338 so that's prejudice more than likely...