The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles .270win 130np : what distance does it stop being a reliable Elk combo?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| .270win 130np : what distance does it stop being a reliable Elk combo? | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
As long as one is able to properly place the pill, then how far out is it good for a broadside? .270win 130np: http://www.federalpremium.com/...ls/rifle.aspx?id=239 | ||
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| One of Us |
Minimum energy suggested for Elk is 1500 pounds, so if your gun is a standard 24" barrel, you are good to 300 yards. | |||
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| One of Us |
My hunting partner has taken 30 - 40 elk with his .270 using 150 grain Nosler Partitions. On average, the distance is 150 yds, but has taken several at 300 yds and a couple at +400 yards. Not all have been one shot kills. When hit in the lungs or heart area, regardless of distance of shot, the elk died and was recovered 100% of the time. Put the bullet in the right shot and the elk cannot survive the collision. | |||
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One of Us |
This is a good reply.....but why shoot 130s when you can go up to 160s? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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To suggest that FPE is a reliable way to gauge terminal trauma is ridiculous. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
I am asking about 130s' cause I want to know what their capable of. | |||
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| One of Us |
They are capable of killing an Elk as far as you are capable of putting the bullet in the right place. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
So far I can put a pill where it needs to be at 350yds, should my skills improve, how much further out can I rely on .270win130np? | |||
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| One of Us |
While I haven't done it with a 270 nor is it my first choice but, I know of Elk killed with a 270 and 130 grainers at more than twice that distance. Shot location is the key, not some majical number on a piece of paper. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
Energy is defined as the ability to do work. In the case of a bullet, the work it does is to inflict trauma on the target (animal). While a bullet's energy is far from the only factor in inflicting trauma (the nature of the bullet and its expansion, penertration, etc. playing a huge role), energy is the sole measurment which compares the relative ability to do work between two projectiles of different weights and speeds. Measuring bullet energy alone will certainly not tell you if a bullet is appropriate to a particular task, but it will tell you what its potential is. | |||
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| One of Us |
There are just to many variables to put a hard number on it. There is nothing rediculas about factoring bullet energy, although it is only one consideration. I think a 130 grain partition is a good choice for elk, its been used for years. If you find an elk who is calmly grazing in a field with out a care in the word , you will have a softer target. If that same elk is in a panic and his muscle is tence, it will be harder to penitrate. I think 350 yards is quite a shot even if conditions are perfect. Just practice and hit him in the right place. I looked at the energy tabels in the newest nosler manual. And I discoverd that at 400 yards , a 130 grain partition fired at 3100 FPS has an energy of 1397 , a 150 fired at 2900 has 1469 and a 160 fired at 2800 has 1421. Penitration if you belive sectional density numbers , favor the heavier bullet , as a 130 shows.242 a 150 showes .279 and the 160 comes in with 298. How much that means when as the song says, "the bullet hits the bone" is anyones guess. But my answer to your question is the 350 yards is streaching things about as far as I would want to go , and streaching most shooters skill a fair bit too. ...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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Bullet energy is a meaningless number when determining leathality. In a collision it is momentum that is transfered (remember Newtons 3 Laws Of Motion, they deal with momentum, momentum transfers and velocity, not energy relationships). Energy is transformed into mostly thermal energy (heat), notice not transfered. A que ball slamming in to the 8 ball and the 8 zooms off across the table you have witnessed a transfer of momentum, not energy. The only thing that matters in creating a wound channel is the amount of direct applied foce and hydraulic pressure that is created and the amount of momentum that is transfered. A 250 pound NFL running back that can runn a 10 flat hundred that is 30 FPS makes 3496.891 FPE. If energy mattered then the NFL, should fill the Morgues after each game. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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+2 Having earned its long range reputation on antelope, deer and sheep, only a fool would argue that the 270 isn't capable of killing elk at long distances. What is questionable, however, is the ability of the 130 grain bullet to do its job at the extreme ends of the distance spectrum. If said bullet will reliably expand at long range, will it come apart at 50 yards when plunging into an animal twice as thick as a deer? The answer, of course, is a bullet such as Nosler's partition. | |||
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| One of Us |
Probably as far as you can reliably hit them properly, providing they are broadside. I much prefer the Barnes TSX to the NP. The Barnes seem to hit harder, especially on elk. | |||
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one of us |
Sure, & a 243 will do the same if given enough time for the animal to die. In that time how far can an elk go? I have tracked a wounded elk in the snow for miles, not my shot but just came onto the bloody track. Never found her before it got dark. Yes it will kill, but I would hold the range under 300yds, even 250 if using a light 130gr bullet. If I hunted elk w/ a 270, it would have a 150grNP or if you must go lt.wt. a monometal would be the better choice. You still need enough momentum to achieve good penetration, preferabley through & through on that broadside shot. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I would not want to try and put down an elk with the .270 in any bullet weight past 350 yards. IMO past that distance you require a 180 grain bullet in one of the faster .30s - starting with the .300 WSM. Can it be done at longer ranges and with less bullet weight? Certainly, but not by me. I respect game animals too much to try and do anything but my best to see that I kill them as humanely as possible. | |||
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Bullet energy is meaningless ? Hardly acurate. i might agree that a specific FPE level will not guarentee a clean kill, But pick your favorite bullet. It reqiers energy to penitrate and expand. How much,is hard to say. But I cant see myself shooting an elk under conditions in witch the energy is weak. The point of the NFL running back is Not a valid point. The energy is dissapated by the helmet and spread over a larger area. Shrink that point of impact down to .277 and hit a head with no helmet. You can descibe what kills an animal when you shoot him in many ways. But without enough energy at the impact the bullet will not penitrate or expand. ...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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one of us |
Hi Trax: The most spectacular shot/performance of a bullet I have ever had, was out of a 270 Win. The elk dropped, and never even twitched. As to the ranges, if you can place the bullet, with a 270, it'll do the job, and do it well. I don't believe there is any "failsafe" answers as to what the bullet is going to do at long ranges, out of most any calibre. It's the shooter who makes the difference, or luck. I like to sneak up on them like an indian. My longest shot on elk, here in Arizona has been 225yds, and I thought that was a bit long. Used a Nosler Ballistic tip, out of you guessed it a 35 Whelen. Love the 270 Winchester, my favortie cartridge. Regards Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Yes, but have you calculated how much greater the MOMENTUM of the running back is than that of a .30 caliber 180 grain bullet producing the same energy? If it is, as you argue, the transfer of momentum that causes trauma, then the running back would be hugely more lethal than the .300 Winchester. I suggest you go back and rethink your position. | |||
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| one of us |
For elk,150 or 200 yds perfectly placed behind the shoulder.For shoulder shots,100yds max.With this cartridge you will see very few "bang drop" on elk.I would prefer a 300RUM,or 338WM using heavy A-frames or light monometals,but would prefer the heavier a-frames if they shoot accurate. | |||
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If you can shoot, 400 yards is not out of the question at all. (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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I think that it is verging on the immoral to shoot any large game animal at such a distance whatever the cartridge and bullet combination. | |||
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Enfield, what is the official demarcation line of distance that makes a shot moral/immoral? I believe hunting distance is a bit like bullet energy, one probably should not make judgements based on a simple number alone. I knew this thread would start a bit of a bash in regards to distance and bullet selection, none the less its to find out/ my aim to establish to what extent & circumstance .270win 130np is sensibly adequate and effective. | |||
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Moderator |
All of my big hunting handguns develop considerably less muzzle energy than just about any factory load for the .270. But, they penetrate and kill with aplomb. I agree that muzzle energy is useless........ "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| one of us |
Trax: I should have know, after prior discussions with you., If you already had an answer/opinion, why start the thread? The Whelen will bash the 358 Win.every time. NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jerry Eden: Trax: I should have know, after prior discussions with you., If you already had an answer/opinion, why start the thread? The Whelen will bash the 358 Win.every time.[QUOTE] Why start this thread?.... why not?, its a free world and people seem happy to post their views about the subject. Dont you like others having a view or discussing their findings? that would be strange, cause you relied on them alot when you talked about the results of .35cal on buffalo. Yes the whelen will beat the .358win over a certain distance. However ,If you cannot acknowledge .358win-200gnmomometal at similar-same impact vel . to 35Wh-225bt (70yds?), is also capable of punching through a buff, then you are the one who has preconceived views & opinions. - want to discuss 35cal& buff more? by all means revive the old thread, instead of clouding this .270cal/Elk thread. | |||
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One of Us |
Just use a bigger - or at least a heavier - bullet, please. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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| One of Us |
Lexma, Every bullet has its limit, but given the example of 270win130np it is surely capable of something good on elk, so what is your view of the limit of 270win130np for broadside elk? ..its not a trick question. | |||
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| one of us |
Now I know that the 130grNP is not a 130gr bronze pt, but a friend of mine killed a big bull & found a smashed 130grBP embeded in the elk's shoulder blade. Is the 270 enough for elk, sure, good shooter w/ a good bullet & a reasonable distance. To me, it's not the 130grNP @ 400yds.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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 rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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| One of Us |
Have you fired your 270 on a range, on a target, at that distance you intend to take your shot? If so what was your group size? I would only shoot an animal at a distance that I could be certain that I could put the bullet - every time and with the first round - to within two to three inches of where I intended it to go on something that large. I can shoot under 1" at 100 yards off a rest with my 270. But in the field? I wouldn't be confident of four to six inches 110% of the time at 350 yards. Not just my error in group size but the error in hold over for bullet drop if I over or under estimate the range. There are just too many other factors that come into play. Wind, uncertainty of it is is 350 or 325 or 375 yards, bullet drop. On a smaller animal like a fox where a hit is either a kill or an instant disabling cripple with a powerful high velocity cartridge then fair enough. But Mr Elk is too big to clean miss at that distance but too far to be certain 110% of a DRT shot or fifty yards and drop down dead. I'd sooner not take a shot and let the thing walk off on its own that pull the trigger and see it run off wounded and never catch up with it. | |||
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one of us |
The NP bullet in this case isn't going to be the determining factor as to how far IMO. The answer is what you feel is your limit and what your conscience allows. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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| One of Us |
The analogy above shows the folly of use FPE as a means of modeling Wound Trauma Incapacitation. The wound channel is governed by the amount of "direct applied force" and by the amount od "hydrolic pressure" that is created by the projectile, the tissue is flung out and away by the transfer of momentum. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
Your 250 lb running back runs into the goal post and is stopped cold. 100% of his enormous (compared to a 180 grain bullet) momentum is tranferred to the goal post. What kind of wound channel is inflicted on the goal post? None. On the other hand, you shoot the goal post with your .300 Magnum, leaving a gaping hole in it while tranferring only 1/3 of the bullet's (much lesser) momentum to it. You see, it is not how much momentum is transferred, but what kind of work is done with the ENERGY. Measuring the momentum of a bullet does little to predict the amount of trauma it may inflict. Bullets with relatively great momentum may inflict negligible trauma, while bullets with lesser momentum may inflict much greater trauma. Bullets with equal momentum do NOT have the same capacity to do work (and potentially inflict trauma). Bullets with equal energy DO have equal capacity to do work (and potentially inflict trauma). The amount and type of trauma depends on the terminal characteristics of the bullet and is limited by the amount of kinetic energy the bullet carries. Increasing the bullet's energy may or may not increase the effective amount of trauma, depending on a number of variables. However, decreasing the energy to a negligible level, even if the momentum is increased exponentially by increasing the weight of the projectile, will result in negligible trauma. The first requisit for a bullet to inflict trauma: ENERGY. Given energy, a projectile will also have some amount of momentum. How much momentum it has is important to things like penetration, but momentum itself is not a measurement of potential trauma. | |||
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Leaving out the middle part of the quote is ridiculous. You need to read this book  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
If you can shoot well enough to hit a grapefruit at 400 yards under field conditions, and can smack Mr bull tight behind the shoulder I can tell you where you will find your 130 grain partition.. Balled up in a perfect mushroom against his offside hide. Will that kill him? for a certainty, as well as anything else you most likely could shoot him with. Your not going to get an exit wound, so there are going to be some determining factors, as always. What kind of country is he headed into? are you going to be able to get another into him if needed? Is he with a bunch more elk so that his tracks are going to be mingled with theirs? Is there snow on the ground to make trailing him easier if need be? But what it really boils down to is can you shoot? The caliber and the bullet will do the job if in the right place, no caliber or bullet will do the job if it is not. So if you know the rifle, and are comfortable with it, and it is a shooter with that load, and you have confidence in your ability to place your bullet under field conditions then that is your right choice. 400 yards is yes out of many peoples realm of possibility, but to a good , practiced and confident rifleman it is a chip shot. Field shooting conditions are not as haphazard as many think. It can be anything from an offhand poke from an out of breath wannabe, to a deliberate and calculated deadly delivery from a damn sure rifleman laying prone with a rest over his day pack. Who has practiced these shots many times at these distances, knows his rifle and load intimately, can read the wind, can range the target, takes into account the other factors that need to be accounted for, such as shot presentation and can calmly and deliberately squeeze one off like punching a ticket. That man, with a 270 and a 130 grain NP is far deadlier at that range than 90% of the fools packing a 338 shooting a 250 grain bullet at 200 yards. Yes the caliber and bullet will work, the real question is will the man? (When I was a kid my father used to tell me that God hated a coward, I finally realized he has even less use for a fool.) | |||
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| Moderator |
bucko, you just had to go and inject some logic into this discussion........  Well said! Every deer season I marvel at the multiple shots and misses taken on deer by clowns who stored their rifles all year and don't break them out till opening day....... I imagine that many elk hunters are afflicted with the same disease."Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
+1 for bucko I have shot lots of game with a 270 using 130, 140 and 150 grain bullets. Mostly deer and antelope, but numbering in triple digits. I've also whacked a fair number of elk and have a friend that has hunted exclucively with a 270 his entire life here in Montana. He has killed several elk cleanly with 130gr bullets, some just regular discount store brands. Ranges have been from under 100 to 300 plus. The closer the better, more one shot kills at under 100 than over. A few years back I started reloading for him and we settled on 150gr NP's for everything, makes life simple and given that he kills double digit numbers of game every year, simple seems to work. What seems to be the significant factor in the effect of a particular caliber on game? OK, wait for it, you know it, my god some of you must just hate this when you read it for the 457 time, SHOT PLACEMENT. Sucks to be you if you want to argue velocity, energy or anything else because to paraphrase Jack O'Conner, a broken leg is just as broken with a 270 as a with 458. Gut shot elk with a 300 whatever is not going to be any easier to find than gut shot with a 257 Roberts. How far? I could drop the biggest bull elk on the mountain DRT with a 223 shooting 60gr NP's at 400 yards IF and this is a big IF, I could stick the bullet in his ear. Every year someone tells me they dropped their elk with whatever at 500, 675, or 758 yards with their trusty range finder and whatever caliber they are currently infatuated with. May well have happened, I wasn't there, they were. The local range has gongs at 300 and 550, I know the range, I know the hold over points, I've shot at them dozens of time. On windy days with gusty variable directions I miss the one at 550, A LOT. In the real world 400 yds is a long shot on anything in any conditions unless you just don't give a sh*t or have limited experience. | |||
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yup.....very well said.....apparently he actually hunts! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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One of Us |
Big bore fans LOVE the momentum model, mid bore fans are all bout the KE model and the line backer model doesn't work very well because it doesn't take into account the suface areas of the projectile ect. As my boss used to say, "all models are wrong, some are useful". Both are useful as long as you understand the assumptions that went into them. I've seen afew elk killed and I'd feel pretty good out to 400 yds with that combo assuming a well placed shot. If I'm not mistaken I think the NP needs about 1800 fps to work properly so you SHOULD be good to 500+ yards but know that that is pushing the bullet's limits, at least according to the manufacturer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If the 270 won't do it the .338 will, if the 338 won't I can't afford the hunt! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles .270win 130np : what distance does it stop being a reliable Elk combo?
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