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I've recently purchased a Winchester 1895 in 30-06. My intent is to convert this rifle to 375 Whelen but for now I want to tinker with the 30-06 caliber, with jacketed and cast bullets. I've noticed that there's very few round nose bullets in the 30 caliber. Most of the bullets look like they are designed for the 1,000 meter matches. Considering the range that that most big game is shot at, isn't the 'ballistic shape' sort of a waste? What's the advantage of these super duper spitzers, hollow point boat tails in the hunting fields. I'm betting that there's little or no terminal effect difference between the spitzers and the round nose bullets, at hunting ranges. Many years ago I had a Browning Safari grade (Sako) in 243 caliber, this rifle loved the Speer 105 grain round nose bullets and did a great job with Sierra 85 and 70 grain HPBTs for ground hogs. Those 105 Speers were pure poison, good clean kills on Virginia whitetails, seemed to hold together well to create daylight coming and going. I thought this Winchester 95 would do equally as well with round nose bullets, say 180 to 200 grain. So far I've only found Speers 180 grain RN. Are there some round nose bullets that I'm missing? Jim | ||
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Hornady and Sierra make RN's as well. I would submit that the shock value of a RN will be much greater than, say the "Triple shock" of the new barnes. Its a lot more painfull to be cut with a dull knife than a sharp one. And you are also correct about their trajectories, with an 06 there wont be much difference up to 250 yds and the majority of animals by a large margin are taken in that range. | |||
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Wstrnhuntr-YOU ARE UP IN THE NIGHT THERE BUDDY saying more SHOCK value with rn bullets. say 30 cal 180rn bc is 286 2900 fps muz energy 3361 100yd-2634 200yd-2052 300yd-1576 400yd-1195 again 30cal 180sp bc is 470 2900 fps muz energy 3361 100yd-2903 200yd-2506 300yd-2155 400yd-1844 BETTER SHARPEN YOURE KNIFE BUDDY at 300yds almost 12in off also from bullet impact between the rn and sp- might be good in thick wooded areas to help not deflect the bullet so bad if you hit a small limb or shoot through small bushes. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} [ 11-09-2003, 22:05: Message edited by: 4bambam ] | |||
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The only game animals I've shot at greater then 150 yards have been goundhogs and a handful of corn eating whitetail. The corn eating deer killing was more of an execution, didn't even get out of the Jeep. I used the passenger side window {sill?} to rest the rifle on with a sand bag. And I did that with the 105 RN from Speer in the 243. I don't think I'd attempt any shots beyond 150 yards out of an iron sighted Winchester 1895. Jim | |||
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Actually the most energy is transfered to game by rapid expanding bullets such as the ballistic tip and sst.The accubond and interbond will still expand rapidly but will hold together and penetrate better as well.As for ballistics the round nose bullets are much more prone to wind drift.As an example take the sierra 180-gr spitzer boatail and compare it to the 180gr roundnose both in .308" caliber.If you start both out at a muzzle velocity of 2800fps the wind drifts with a 10mph wind are as follows 180gr sbt -100yards-.6" 200yards-2.46" 180gr rn -100yards-1.28" 200 yards-5.46" using a 20mph wind 180gr sbt -100yards-1.19" 200yards-4.91" 180gr rn -100yards-2.56" 200yards-10.93" All data taken from sierra reloading manual 2nd edition As you can see even at 200 yards the differences are significant and could be the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal. As far as their ability to strike objects and still stay on course several tests have shown that round or flat nosed bullets are affected just as much as pointed bullets when they strike branches or other obstacles. [ 11-09-2003, 21:43: Message edited by: stubblejumper ] | |||
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The frontal area of a bullet is important, though minimally so on game so light as deer. It comes into its own when the beasties get up there around Moosie size, IMO. And the frontal area value is best applied with round or flat-nosed bullets. So if you are going to go moose/eland/whatever hunting with the '06, the round nosed bullet is preferable. And . . . since such large game is rarely shot out on the horizon, the difference in 300 yard trajectory is totally irrelevant. Those who frequent the African Hunting Forum will likely also come down on the side that feels there are many things that go into lethality besides kinetic energy, a fetish from the '50's when "magnumitis" took over the gun mags. | |||
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stubblejumper I appreciate the your effort in looking up the wind drift differences. I've never had the luxury of the time to consider the wind speed while hunting, other then shooting groundhogs way the heck out in the next county. Jim | |||
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arkypete-Thats the best reason there is to use a bullet that minimizes wind drift. | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
quote:The advantage is that the pointy bullets give you the better long-range performance, IF YOU NEED IT!! That's all, as far as I have been able to determine!! You can use one of the several 220-grain round-nose slugs in the M95 if you wish, and believe me, launched at any velocity between 2200 and 2600 FPS, these heavy bullets are real killers from a .30 cal. rifle out to at least 200 yards. | ||
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quote:Ya think?? ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Riddle me this, would you rather have a 2" dia. wound channel from a mv of 2300 fs or a 1/4" wound channel from a 3000 fs bullet?? If I can keep a 200 grain rn from a 35 remington on a 4" target at 250 yds then I can damn sure do it with a 30-06 at 300 yds. Screw what the books say. And by the way, there is no such thing as a "brush bucking bullet". | |||
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And if you used a spitzer bullet the higher remaining velocity would cause a larger wound channel since the higher the velocity the more a bullet will expand.(as long as the construction is similar such as the same two basic bullets but one with a round nose and the other a spitzer) | |||
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FWIW, I've been using round nose bullets in different chamberings for a long, long time. With good shot placement and range estimation they have been very effective. | |||
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Hey guys thanks for all the info. I really had no idea that there was such a wide gulf of disagreement between the RN mob and spitzer gang. I've been shooting cast bullets for so long that I feel like Rip van Winkle. When I needed some jacketed bullets I motivated myself down to the gun shop, bought several boxes of Sierra 70, 80 grainers, 105 Speer RN for deer hunting (pre 45-70) for the 243 or I bought 100gr HP Speer or 100gr SMK for the 25-06. Life was simpler before I purchased that AR10t. I didn't own a 30 caliber, in less then three months I've got two of the damn things, 30 calibers, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. Now I buy 168 30 caliber grain bullets by the 500, 308 cases by the thousand. I'm left with the problem of jacketed bullets for this 1895 Winchester lever action, in 30-06, and round nose bullets seems to me the way to go. Something about lever action and round nose bullets that go together. Jim | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
4bambam, you are making a common mistake, if you believe bullet shocking power can be determined by kinetic energy alone! There is much more involved, including bullet diameter, bullet frontal configuration, and bullet structure! | ||
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quote:arkypete, I tend to agree. I think round nose bullets would be right at home in a 1895 Winchester. This rifle isn't exactly going to be a long range rig if you shoot it with iron sights. (At least for me it wouldn't be.) Out to 200 yards or so round nose bullets will work just fine in conjunction with the iron sights. I've had very good luck and accuracy with either the 220gr Hornady round nose or the 220gr Woodleigh round nose out of my Ruger M77 MkII in .30-06. Velocities run around 2420 fps (Hornady) to 2460 fps (Woodleigh) with 52.0 grs of IMR-4350, WLR primer, W-W case. I used the Woodleigh load in South Africa last year and it worked just fine. Steenbok, Impala, Bushbuck, Warthog and Red Hartebeest. My longest shot was only about 120 yards. I have a Browning Model 1895 (made in 1984, I believe) in .30-06. I found it at a gun store a few years ago in unfired condition. (It was from an estate sale). But, I've never gotten around to shooting the darn thing! When I do finally take it out to the range, I'll start with the 220gr round nose bullets with about 50.0 grs of IMR-4350. The 1895 does have rear locking lugs so I'm going to keep my loads on the moderate side. I realize the new 1895s will handle modern pressures but I want to keep case stretching to a minimum. The slight velocity loss won't be a concern given the iron sights, etc. Just my two cents worth.... -Bob F. | |||
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The usual reason for round nose bullets in a lever action is for safety in a tubular magazine. Don't have that problem in the 1895 Winchester. | |||
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Eldeguello- The only common mistake is you, I did compare 2 bullets' did not say or compare structure, only rn and sp or mention flap point. I put up about 2 different bullets and compared the 2,rn and sp at a given speed and both 30 cal., and the facts about energy between the 2, Pull youre head out, not bull shit like you and youre buddy Wstrnhuntr who do not beleive the facts, and Ignore what this subject was all about in the first place. Stumble also put up what I was going to add about wind drift between them also. Can you read or comprehend?? Grow up and go study youre[[scientific facts]].Or have you for got how to study?????? ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Is this how you got so many posts here at this web site?? I can see you have alot to learn. Also different people have different hunting ranges, so between the 2 bullets You have lots to loose in the r-nose inEnergy,Speed,Bullet Drop where I am lucky to get with in 300yds where I hunt.- BITE ME [ 11-11-2003, 05:10: Message edited by: 4bambam ] | |||
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4bambam We've got a friendly discussion with varing points of view. Nobody is wrong, everybody is right, it's just a matter of personal choice and personal experience. I've used the big flat nosed 445 grain slugs out of my 45-70 for a lot of years. This bullet has the ballistic shape of a beer can, but for any shots out to 150 yards it's OK. Here in Virginia a 150 yard shot would make the state newspaper's front page. The 30 caliber rifles and Lee bullet molds were someting I spent a lot of years ignoring. There seems to be a bunch of people think very highly of them so maybe I need to investigate what it is that these intelligent, knowledgable folks know that I don't. Jim | |||
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quote:NotRicochet Don't think I'd put round nose bullets in my 1886, 45-70 or mod. 92, 45 Colt. Could get real exciting. I agree with you that the Win. 95 can use spitzers, I think the round nose will be given the first testing. Some how I can't see Teddy (Rooseveldt) tromping around Africa with spitzers. Or for the matter a 30-06 since it had not been invented yet, but that's another thread for discussion. I did load 50 rounds of 30=06 using some left over 155 Palma bullets, using Sierra's accuracy load. The rifle did a fine job of putting them in the same 2 inch dayglo orange sticker at 100 yards. I'll be ordering a bunch of the Sierra 175 grain MK for testing in the AR10t, so may give them whirl in the Mod 95. Seems I'll have a bunch of testing to do this winter. Jim | |||
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quote:Hey Jim, Looks like you are getting enough info on the "Bullet" portion of your post. Kind of suspect you knew the answers before you posted though. Just wanted to mention there is a pretty good article in the Nov03 #210 "Rifle" magazine written by Phil Shoemaker concerning "Bore Freshening". For those that don't know, it is basically re-boring an existing barrel to a larger caliber. I don't have a Model 1895 near me, so I don't know if the existing barrel dimensions will allow for the re-boring to a 375cal or not. If so, it would allow you to retain the external appearance of your rifle and sights - as is. Come to think of it, you might be able to do it twice (depending on dimensions, throat condition and how much you shoot it). The 30-06 in itself should be good for lots of Range Time and Hunting. Then you might go to a 338-06 or 35Whe and get l-o-t-s more good use from it. And then go to the 375Whe. A man could darn near wear the action out " IF " he could live long enough to do all that Trigger Yanking - using Lead bullets. Do you already have "molds" for the 375cal? What do you plan to use the 375Whe on? | |||
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| <Savage 99> |
Using the current data at www.sierrabullets.com I found that the Ci for the .308" 180 gr RN Pro Hunter to be .280 for 2800 fps and below. Using Sierra's 180 gr Spitzer Pro Hunter with the same construction as the comparison then the Ci is .407 for the same velocity range. Thus the calculations must be redone and the differences are less than a bullet diameter in drift at 100 yds/10 mph/90! Likewise the energy spread is less than 10%. Again insignificant. As to the unwarranted personal attack here on a senior and respected member. I find that such attackers end up embarressed. A friend who is a top level engineer and a rifleman knows that quite a bit of a bullets energy is wasted deforming it's nose. This energy goes into heat which is of no value to the application. Flat meplats are extremely effective when the edge of the nose does not deform. Most expanding bullets do not create a meplat larger than their diameter. | ||
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quote:arkypete, Check out this link: http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_1895.htm " Far from just wanting a few rifles for Kermit to have along on the safari Roosevelt ended up having 15 wooden crates full of Winchester rifles, ammunition and spare parts for his expedition shipped by Winchester to his waiting steamer. Of the rifles, he choose the 1895 lever-action in 30-'03 U.S. as well as in .405 Win. to be the highlighted arms of the trip." Some sources say that Kermit's .30 caliber Model 1895 rifle was in .30-40 [Krag] but that's mistaken. Theodore Roosevelt himself, in some of his writings, called Kermit's rifle a .30-40 but he seems to have confused the .30-40 and .30-03 (.30-06) at times. At that time (1908/9) they were called the .30 U.S. Army and the .30 U.S. Government so it's easy to see how he could get them mixed up. The 1895 had been available in .30-40 Krag for some time prior to 1908/9 but Winchester had only started chambering the 1895 in .30-03 in 1905. They started chambering it for the .30-06 in 1908. The Model 1895 was the first civilian sporting rifle chambered for the .30-03 and .30-06. R. L. Wilson's book Theodore Roosevelt Outdoorsman makes it clear that Kermit's .30 caliber Model 1895 was chambered for .30-03. TR's bolt action Springfield sporter was chambered for .30-03 and TR wanted Kermit's .30 caliber rifle to be chambered for the same cartridge for logistical reasons. (From letters between Winchester and the White House shown in Wilson's book.) Wilson's book also has an appendix that lists the contents of the 15 crates that Winchester shipped. Both .30-03 and .30-06 ammunition is listed but .30-40 Krag ammunition is not. I realize all of this is off topic for the thread but I thought you might find it interesting since you have a Model 1895 in .30-06. -Bob F. | |||
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Savage 99 Bob Thank you for the delightful article and your informative posting. Seems your posting pointed to my being correct with the thought that a round nosed bullet would be most appropriate to the mod. 95. As I remember the the Springfield's 1903's ammo was round nosed originally. The Germans came up with the spitzer, which was lighter in weight and ballistically superior to the round nosed ammo then in use in England, the US and the rest of the developed world. Jim | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
Actually, during his 1909 safari, T.R. used 150-grain G.I. spitzers, government '06 loads, in his 1903 Springfield, and found them to be quite effective on plains game, due to the fact that most of these short bullets keyholed after impact. They caused wounds as bad as if they were softpoints.... Note that T.R. went to Africa three years AFTER the U.S. switched from the .30/'03 to the .30/'06! And that both of these new calibers were adopted during T.R.'s tenure as President. The .30/';03 round had a longer case neck and used 220-grain bullets, whereas the .30/'06 (G.I. load) used the 150 FJ spitzer.... [ 11-13-2003, 20:39: Message edited by: eldeguello ] | ||
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I like 220 Noslers and Sierras in the 30-06. | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
4bambam!! quote:Other than BITE ME, a very edifying comment/suggestion, BTW, I have no idea what the above quote is supposed to convey. You shouldn't allow your temper to compromise your ability to communicate!! However, my point was that merely comparing the ft/lb of energy a couple of different loads may be carrying at any given range does not provide us with a particularly useful comparison of what each will do when it hits a game animal. I agree with you that the round with the higher muzzle velocity and better form factor will make it easier for you to get hits at extended ranges.Where in the world do you hunt, that you have to shoot at 300+ yards at deer? Over the past 50 years, I've hunted in Alaska, Germany, France, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Indiana, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Colorado, and Montana, and have generally been able to get a lot closer to deer than that! Shot an elk in CO three weeks ago. 40 yards! With a 7mm Rem. Mag. using one 175-grain Nosler (pointed bullet!!), and it killed him! So, I have a lot to learn!! You'd make a helluva good teacher, I'll wager. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} Bon Chance, mon ami!![ 11-17-2003, 20:27: Message edited by: eldeguello ] | ||
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