quote:

RIP, Some time ago you published results based on your experimnets with FN bullets. Perhaps you want to come in and elaborate

RIP, I saved you the trouble and found the data Warrior refers to.

quote:

RIP 18 June 2005
Only two shots were fired today in the shakedown run:

1) .375 H&H: 300 grain FN solid at 2526 fps
2) .375 RUM: 300 grain FN solid at 2730 fps

Result: It's a tie!!!

Conclusion: The extra 200 fps of velocity made no difference in this test medium regarding penetration.

There was more violence and hurt put on the first (target) board by the faster bullet. The target dot was blown off the board by the 2700 fps bullet, not so the 2500 fps bullet. There was a visibly bigger splash of water and the entry board was cracked and splintered a bit more with the 200 fps faster bullet.

The final compartment damage and total depth of penetration was the same with both bullets: Indistinguishable.

So it seems that 2700 fps bullets penetrate as deeply as 2500 fps bullets. No horrible loss of penetration.

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RIP: 27 June 2005
Results today:

The 300 grainer at 2500 fps was captured in the 8th wood wall, with about 3/4 of its length sticking out of the down range side of the boards.

The 270 grainer at 2900 fps bounced off the 8th wood wall sideways, leaving only a shallow dent in the wood, on which you could make out the marks of the driving bands from the side of the bullet.

However, the entry (target dot) board (1 thickness of plywood) was broken completely in half and the top half somehow squeezed /flexed out of the Steel Mistress and landed 16 feet uprange toward the shooter. More violent initially.

The slower bullet just cracked the entry board slightly, but penetrated farther.

It seems the faster bullets just lose their initial speed surplus within the first compartment of wood and water, rather violently then settle down to behaving like the slower load of same weight

quote:

Gerard: 28 June 2005
When RIP first asked for a vote on the three bullets, I posted:

"With the amount of building material involved, the 270/2900 and the 300/2700 will be pretty close and both will be better than the 300/2500. On game the 270/2900 will be best. It will give the largest permanent wound channel and would be first choice."

Taken from the measurements RIP gives for the construction of his stop medium, the extra penetration of the 300gr bullet over the 270gr bullet was less than one inch. The other example above shows a two inch variance and also no relationship to weight and penetration.


I would say that, in the context of hunting with solids, RIP's experiment shows that our ballistic model favours speed. Penetration depth differences between the different weights of bullets tested were neglible but overall damage done was higher with the faster bullets in every case. If I must choose between two bullets with almost equal ability to penetrate, I will take the one that gives the biggest volume wound channel without giving it a second thought.

This is all somewhat besides the point now that Warrior has come around to the enlightened way.

Warrior,
I have been doing some digging in the recent history of AR back to 2005. I found some interesting things and two, that come to the same thing, stand out.

In May 2005, Gerard stuck his neck out and predicted what would happen in the test RIP made a month later with the 270gr and 300gr 375 bullets. His prediction was right, down to the last T.

On 13 June 2007, RIP announced a challenge to Gerard. He asked "Design a nose cavity for the .395/340-grain GSC HV that will open up in water at 1500 fps, retain expanded petals through 2500 fps impact in water, and blow them off at 2600 fps impact, turning the bullet into a solid that will exit the other end of 8 feet of water bags, into a 6" thick stack of plywood at the other end, for recovery."

5 Months later RIP posted
"1600 fps: .659" = 167%, expanded down two-thirds of hollowpoint, symetrically, with 3 petals partially folded back.

2500 fps: .768" = 194%, broke off 2 of 3 petals, petals found in third bucket with bullet, one petal still attached.

2725 fps: .554" = 140%, blew off nose and left a widened, nose-heavy penetrator, one loose petal found on ground beside bucket train.

All three bullets made it into the third bucket, buckets each have 14.5" of water depth."

I see that when Gerard says that bullets will act in a certain way, that is how they act. To my mind it is easy to say "this is what happened". To say "This is what will happen" takes the knowledge of what will happen from the experience of what has happened in the past.

Nice to know, it instills confidence.

Why are you so quiet?

Has Alf "pulled your dam beneath your duck"?

On the 15th Alf threw his toys and left.

Warrior last posted on the 16th.

Alf posted lots of info from other sources in support of his points of view.

Warrior posted lots of info from other sources in support of his points of view.

Alf and Warrior mostly agreed. Warrior and Alf never disagreed.

Hmmmmmmm.......

We are sure Alf is a doctor in Canada. There are/were many photos to prove that he is real.

On the other hand, Warrior is a shell. No pictures of him with the game he supposedly shot. No photos of his many rifles or his reloading setup. No tangible record of his vast experience. Almost as though he does not exist, or is deliberately hiding. Maybe he is not real at all.

Hmmmmmmm...........

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Hi Alf,
I am anonymous. A shell, just like Warrior. The modicum of common sense that I have is affronted by the manner in which Bekker targets one of the best products in the bullet field to come out of South Africa. We have so many products that can stand a lot of improvement but those are not mentioned. Bekker is not concerned about them at all.

So consider me as wearing my underwear on the outside of my tights and a cape streaming in the wind as I swoop on Bekker to expose his lopsided outlook. (See how Bekker's Drama Queen mode rubs off on others?)

He taints all of us with his presence and his ouvrou met 'n nat broek attitude.

What is your connection with Bekker?

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Actually Hotcore, you win, I concede see yah !

Apparently this did not mean what it appears to mean. I figure a man is only as good as his word.

Doublespeak, pulling a clinton, bunch of bologna - take your choice.
-----

Hey VV, You just had to keep hammering on the (claimed dead) mule!

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Alf,
Thanks for the response.

quote:

I note that Chris has a tendency to quote me, ( copy and paste)it's his call to do so, does he do so in correct context, not always,

I tend to agree with this fully.

quote:

does he understand what he is quoting...... I would hope to think so.

You are an optimist. You are commended for your kindness to the challenged.