Is anyone shooting this combination, if so what are you loading it with?

Not me. But those Berger folks do make absolutely excellent bullets - for shooting at paper.

Best of luck to you.

I do! I load the 140 gr hunting VLD with 62 gr of H4831, started at 60.5 gr and worked up to the 62 gr. I believe Hodgdon lists a max load of 62.5 for H4831.

I've taken 7 whitetails with this load and they all were dead to rights! Shots ranged from about 35 yards out to 345 yards or so.

I shoot a Tikka T3 Lite in .270 WSM BTW.

quote:

Originally posted by CoyoteKiller82:

....I shoot a Tikkak T3 Lite in .270 WSM BTW.

I've the very same rifle; what kind of accuracy you get at 200 m/yds with that load?

quote:

Originally posted by wildboar:

quote:

Originally posted by CoyoteKiller82:

....I shoot a Tikkak T3 Lite in .270 WSM BTW.

I've the very same rifle; what kind of accuracy you get at 200 m/yds with that load?

This load is accurate enough for hunting, it's a little better than MOA at 200 yards, about an inch and a half. I know the gun will shoot better, but I have other tack driving rigs that I prefer to punch paper with. Being a hunting load, I know it can do better, I just haven't had the time to really dial it in.

How 'bout you, how's your rigs accuracy?

CK82

MagPro, 70.5gr. Norma brass.Fed 215M. Seated
-0.010" off. 3178 fps 11 fps es for 10. Best group: 0.43" at 100 yrds.
Rifle: Kimber 8400 Classic

quote:

Originally posted by CoyoteKiller82:

....How 'bout you, how's your rigs accuracy?

CK82

The rifle shoots and works very well, but I'm only an average shooter; about 1.5 MOA at 200m but I've only used 130gr bullets, though. I own 2 other Tikkas, it's my favourite brand.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Not me. But those Berger folks do make absolutely excellent bullets - for shooting at paper.

Best of luck to you.

Hot Core you're full of good information....

Berger hunting bullet line

The Hunting bullet line features Very Low Drag (VLD) bullets that have the highest possible ballistic coefficient designed for 300 yards or more. Berger recommends that the bullets be seated to touch the rifling for best accuracy. Note, however, that the resulting cartridge overall length may be too long for some magazines. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2" to 3" before it starts to expand. After the initial expansion, the bullet will shed between 40% and 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organs). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area that will be 13" - 15" long. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. This is not loaded ammunition.

Hey surstrike, What did they change on the Paper Punching Bullets to make them into Hunting Bullets? I've asked this same question a good number of times and have yet to get a viable answer.

I do not need the Marketing Propaganda, nor a bunch of Gun Rag Hack shilling(brought forth by a FREE Hunt) to make it clear for me, just the information on "What changed?"

If nothing actually changed except the Marketing and Labels on the box, then it is still a Paper Puncher - as far as I am concerned.

So, I look forward to your response about the actual Design Change and am willing to change my mind when you convince me that it is really now "Designed" to be a Hunting Bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:


I do not need the Marketing Propaganda, nor a bunch of Gun Rag Hack shilling(brought forth by a FREE Hunt) to make it clear for me, just the information on "What changed?"

So what exactly do you base anything about the subject on? I anxiously await a "viable" answer to that one.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
... your response about the actual Design Change and am willing to change my mind when you convince me that it is really now "Designed" to be a Hunting Bullet.

You have trouble reading that sentence chuckee??? I'll not hold my breath awaiting an "intelligent" reply from you.

As someone who has actually used these bullets to hunt, and also as someone who absolutely hates these , if you don't have something to say that answers the OP's ?, take a hike.

BTW, HC is right, the hunting line of VLD's is no different from the target bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by CoyoteKiller82:
BTW, HC is right, the hunting line of VLD's is no different from the target bullets.

So the "HUGE" Design Change - is the Label on the box.

And the Gun Rag Hacks have shilled people into another fiasco. Pitiful and Pathetic!!

I have not hunted with a Berger VLD, nor have I bothered to shoot them. For all I know, they might be The One.

What I do know is this: Handloader Magazine ran an article about two or three years ago hyping the Berger VLD's. Some kind of African hunt. The writer "was stunned" at how well the bullets killed and allegedly fired a number of them at ballistics gel. Reportedly, what made the Berger's so good was that they didn't start expanding until they had penetrated 2-3" - so in effect they were expanding in lung tissue and the like instead of starting their expansion upon impact.

The apparent conclusion was that their design was superior to other bullets on the market.

About a month later I couldn't find a single Berger on any shelf. Midway was out, MidSouth was out, Grafs was empty, and my local gun room (which previously must have had 200 boxes of various bullets) was out.

The next season there were a lot of hunters using Berger's for hunting. And the real-world reviews were very mixed. Some said they killed like lightning, others said they had miserable tracking jobs with minimal blood trails.

True? False? Just Internet Hype?

I have no idea. But that's what I saw and read. Personally, I have no need for Bergers as I don't shoot over 200 yards and they wouldn't be legal for Cali hunting anyway (feckin' Condor liberal greenies).

So, I'm pretty much stuck with Barnes for hunting here in Cali, Cup & Core's for Texas, and I'll use Partitions in Africa.

The simple truth is that Berger's just don't fill any need that I have.

That's my conclusion based on never shooting a single Berger and based on the Internet results.

I understand that the Berger VLD's jacket is very thin. Thinner than a Sierra Match King.

I have also heard that the Berger bullet penetrates first then expands. Although I must confess that I don't understand the physics of that phenomenon.

The exit wounds are reportedly very large and much meat is damaged.

My guess is that the Bergers would likely do the job pretty well on thin-skinned, light weight game animals, more often than not.

But why risk a failure over something as basic as a bullet?

I will always go with a purpose-built, controlled expansion hunting bullet if given the choice. Proper respect for the game demands it, as far as I'm concerned.

Has anyone had any experience with the vld at close range. example: 20yds in the thick into an elk or mule deer with a fast gun? Anyone had that experience and what was the result? thanks,JS

Just a coyote at 40 or so yards. Blew a hole as big as a garage door. Instant kill though.

Shot several deer broadside with the 175 MK, all had very large exit wounds.

quote:

Originally posted by 2kuduhunter:
Has anyone had any experience with the vld at close range. example: 20yds in the thick into an elk or mule deer with a fast gun? Anyone had that experience and what was the result? thanks,JS

I've taken a doe at about 30 yards, shoulder shot, lots of blood shot meat in both shoulders.

As for being thin jacketed, Michael Robinson, you're correct, but it's the shape that affects expansion. The trick of VLD bullets is the VLD shape, it allows for some penetration before the bullet expands and dumps all it's energy inside the animal, causeing massive shock and blood loss. Which is devastating to the animal, the furthest a deer I've shot with a VLD has made it is about 60 yards, often they drop on the spot!

There is a difference in the hunting and target bullets from Berger. The hunting bullet has a thinner jacket and the target bullet has the thicker jacket. If you would like to read about them go to www.bergerbullets.com and check em out.

I have used them on deer several times with great results.

God Bless, Louis

Read the info on the Berger website, it sounds like a design prone to problems associated with bullets that don't penetrate, e.g. lack of blood trails. I can see clearly from their own statements that the Hunting bulllet from Berger will develop many of the issues that has made the Nosler Ballistic Tip so controversial. The current NBT's will exit a higher percentage of the time than the Berger VLD hunting IMO.

In the 270 WSM, I have only shot the targer version--scary accurate! I personally wouldn't want them loaded for big bruiser whitetails I am lucky to encounter every blue moon....I KNOW you can get awesome accuracy with an Accubond, TSX or TTSX, and excellent versatility--meaning to me a good combo of penetration and expansion--from these and other bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by youngoutdoors:
...The hunting bullet has a thinner jacket and the target bullet has the thicker jacket. ...

Hey Louis, Have you "sectioned" any of them just to look at the difference?

I did not go look at the Marketing Propaganda. However, it seems to me a person would want a "Thicker Jacket" in a Hunting Bullet, unless they were Hunting Varmints where explosive performance is a virtue. Do you think perhaps Marketing got it reversed?

I'm just too old to believe a lot of Marketing bologna. Bullet Designs are fairly complex when each segment is taken into consideration. But, it is real easy to understand a "Fragile Bullet" has less chance of making an Exit.

Fish made a fine post concerning the Nosler B-Tips. Nosler has made at least 4 Generations of the B-Tip to toughen their on-game performance.

Hot Core made the very same observation I was going to make. If the hunting bullet has a thinner jacket than the target bullet, the information person at the bullet company needs to be fired for giving out the wrong stuff. ----- I shoot two .270 WSM's extensively, but have never fired a Berger bullet through them. My rifles like 130 grain Nosler Solidbase, Nosler Partitions and North Forks. I get one holers with the Solidbases and North Forks, .5 inch with the Partitions. Both rifles like the 140 grain Nosler Accubond, Barnes TSX bullets best, giving me consistent one holers with both when I do my part. I can get .5 inch groups with the 150 grain Nosler Partitions, and an occasional one holer with 150 grain North Forks, but usually .5 group with them. I get my best speeds with the North Forks, 3450 fps with the 130 grainers and 3175 fps with the 150 grainers. ----- I have taken a large 4X4 Mule Deer with one of my riflles and was very satisfied with the performance of the 140 grain TSX bullet, bullet sized entrance hole and silver dollar sized exit hole at 285 yards. With this information you have the total of my shooting experience with the .270 WSM's which I consider to be the perfect Deer cartridge. Good shooting.

I checked the Berger site and there is no claim that the hunting bullet was "designed" to be a hunting bullet. They just say it is "proving" to be a good hunting bullet. This leads me to believe they just found a new use for an existing product. They state the "Varmint" bullet has a very thin jacket at the "nose"(for rapid expansion) and the "Hunting" bullet has a sharper and thicker nose(for penetration and delayed expansion). There is no mention of how the "Target" bullet nose is made. All of the bullets are made on the same basic design: boat-tail, long secant ogive and narrow meplat. This is combined with precision thickness jacket to make a accurate, VLD, long range bullet. So basically, they are all long, pointy, FMJ boat-tails with expansion controlled by varying the thickness/sharpness of the bullet nose. Berger's big claim is that he bullet essentially "explodes" inside the animal destroying much tissue and leading to quick death.

Whether or not the Berger bullet was purpose designed as a "hunting" bullet is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if it performs satisfactorily as a hunting bullet. That can only be determined from ballistic gel and actual hunting experience. If the "purpose design" requirement were applied to many things that impact out lives:

- we would never have used the DC-3 as the C-47 military cargo transport because it was originally designed as a civilian airliner
- the Redstone, Atlas and Titan rockets wouldn't have been used for the space program because they were designed as ICBM's to launch weapons
- we wouldn't have Viagra because it was originally designed as a blood pressure medicine
- Aspirin wouldn't be used to prevent heart attacks because it was developed originally as a pain killer
- we wouldn't have ACE Inhibitors for blood pressure control because snakes originally developed it as a poison to kill prey
- we wouldn't have bolt action rifles because the design is based on a door latch
- we wouldn't have Roundup for weed control because it was originally designed as a soap/surfactant
- gunpowder would still only be used for fireworks
- Bell would never have killed all those elephants with a 7mm FMJ military roundnose because it was designed as a people killer
- etc., etc., etc., ..............................

I say defer to folks with actual significant experience with the bullet. We know the darned things are accurate, the question is: do they provide reliable performance on game(ruling out bad shot placement)? I think the OP also wanted to know the load that is being used.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
I say defer to folks with actual significant experience with the bullet. ...

Hey Bobster, Considering the Design of the Bullet, why would anyone use one in the first place to gain any experience with them on Game. We've had Bullets Designed way too fragile in the past and they always end up loosing and wounding Game, even with well placed shots.

It seems some may have used the Bullet that do not understand the "potential" for lost and wounded Game due to a poor Bullet Design for the task at hand.
-----

I say defer to many peoples vast experience with poorly Designed(way too fragile) Bullets for Game and not repeat History.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
I say defer to folks with actual significant experience with the bullet. ...

Hey Bobster, Considering the Design of the Bullet, why would anyone use one in the first place to gain any experience with them on Game. We've had Bullets Designed way too fragile in the past and they always end up loosing and wounding Game, even with well placed shots.

It seems some may have used the Bullet that do not understand the "potential" for lost and wounded Game due to a poor Bullet Design for the task at hand.
-----

I say defer to many peoples vast experience with poorly Designed(way too fragile) Bullets for Game and not repeat History.

HC, I think personally that Berger tested the thing in gel and in animals before marketing it. They would have been stupid not to. Most of the anecdotal reports we've seen in this thread indicate it does the job. It represents the application of a whole new theory on controlled bullet expansion and deserves a try.

It takes the ballistic tip and incorporates it into a sculpted continuous jacket. The sidewalls taper into the ogive and then thicken again at the tip. Since the ballistic tip is not separate from the jacket, it tends to penetrate until the jacket collapses and the bullet fragments deeper in the animal. Unlike the BT which can fragment on impact and wound.

I believe they may have swerved into it by accident while developing their long range target bullets. They may have indeed tweaked the design a bit. The real market they are going after IMHO is the emerging/developing ULRSH(ultra long range sniper hunter). Their own video claims on-game performance in excess of 1,000 yds! But, if the thing kills faster at short distances I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't ruin too much meat. It leaves too much of a debris trail for my taste. It is probably not the best choice for ranges out to 500 yds, but is likely the only solution for extreme ranges.

Lord knows in the last 20 years of deer hunting in the club environment of the Carolinas, we've seen plenty of lost game - mostly due to poor shot placement. I can often predict who we'll have to go track game for through the swamp until 1 AM. I've had conventional bullets do weird stuff. Once had a 140 grain 6.5 spire point hit a doe quartering away behind the shoulder(15 ft ladder stand) and exit the bottom of her gut. She trailed her innards for 150 yds til she dropped. Go figure. Just think what the future holds:

40 foot tall quad stands with 360 degree benchrest shooting platforms overlooking 1,500 yd clearcuts and shooting lanes! WooHoo! Imagine trying to find the spot where a deer was hit 1,000 yds away after dark. I guess you do need an exploding bullet at those ranges.

In 2009, I killed 5 deer and 1 moose with the 7mm 168 Berger VLD out of a 7RM. Excellent performance.

Last March, I hunted PG in Namibia with the same load. I killed kudu, gemsbok, black and blue wildebeest, zebra, red hartebeest, warthog, baboon and around a dozen springbok. At first, the PH was skeptical about my choice of bullets but after witnessing one shot kills time and again, he changed his view.

For those needing proof, my PH was Errol Lambrechts out of the Gras Ranch. He can be contacted via e-mail.

This coming March, I will return to hunt with Errol again. This time for eland and waterbuck. The rifle and load will be the same as before, 168 VLD out of my 7RM at 2950-2960 fps.

Bobby B.

Those of you choosing to use the Berger Bullets on Game - I do wish you the best of Luck. The Design just dosen't interest me for Hunting because of some of the Fragile Bullets we had to deal with for decades.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Lord knows in the last 20 years of deer hunting in the club environment of the Carolinas, we've seen plenty of lost game - mostly due to poor shot placement. I can often predict who we'll have to go track game for through the swamp until 1 AM. I've had conventional bullets do weird stuff. Once had a 140 grain 6.5 spire point hit a doe quartering away behind the shoulder(15 ft ladder stand) and exit the bottom of her gut. She trailed her innards for 150 yds til she dropped. ...

AMEN!

It really bothers me when I can just talk to a new Hunter(?) for 5-minutes and realize he is probably going to be a "Tracking" problem. I agree completely with your above thoughts, which has strengthened my views about using a properly Designed Bullet for the task at hand.

Even when the Best Bullets are used in excellent rifles and properly placed on Game, occasionally bad things result - just as in your 140gr 6.5mm example. The Classic example for me was a young guy just returning from an Elk Hunt. He had a 300WbyMag using 180ge Partitions in a beautiful Weatherby rifle. He shot a Doe which took two hours to recover. Excellent shot placement and the amount of Energy placed inside the Doe caused the Guts to be shoved " up " between the Left Hip and the Spine, tearing right through the hide. How she was able to move at all made no sense to anyone.

But, when a person shoots a lot of Dogs and Coyotes with Fragile Bullets, and see the results, they usually understand the potential problems with using them on Game.

I also understand how the Berger's would not be nearly as Fragile when the Velocity has dropped way off past 750yds. Still not what " I " would want to use though.

Best of luck to you this coming Season. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

I have killed several deer with Berger Hunting bullets and have had no issues at all. Also have several buddies that will say the same.

The Berger Target bullets are not even intended to open up. I have heard reports of people using them on hogs and the bullet zips right though and makes a pencil sized hole on both sides. You don't need a target bullet to open up on paper.

I'll try to get my wife to post some pics of the damage Bergers have done to some deer I have shot.

I don't need or want anything else unless I am hunting dangerous game.

God Bless, Louis

Oh yeah I forgot to add that the ogives are slightly different between the target and hunting bullets that I have checked. Not my target bullets because I have never bought any of the target bullets but a buddy has 'em.

Hotcore, I haven't sectioned 'em but have talked to the folks at Berger several times.

God Bless, Louis

Thanks Louis. Best of luck to you.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

I killed a whitetail buck a couple seasons back in KY with the 210 VLD "break-in" load in my new 308. It shot so well I wanted to go ahead and try it. I also had 150 Btips on hand. The buck was roughly 50 yards. I have no clue as to the velocity. The entry hole was about 1/2 inch in front of onside high shoulder and the exit was just behind the opposite shoulder. The entry hole was about caliber size. The exit was about golf ball size.

When the buck was hit, he trotted, huffing/puffing, broadside to me, stopping about every 15 yards. He made it about 40 yards I'd guess. I could see blood gushing from his mouth/nose, and exit wound. It was 11 degrees that morning and the blood froze nicely and quickly and there was plenty of it. I'd say double the average blood trail as my bow kills.

Regardless, I'm not one of any time based experience to report how great or bad these bullets are for hunting. Given my above experience, if any other hunter witnessed this kill or the blood trail, it would be anyone's best guess as to what "hunting" bullet was used if they didn't know that a Berger was used. Here he is:

Nice Deer Doc. Glad to see you back posting again.

thanks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hot Core:
Those of you choosing to use the Berger Bullets on Game - I do wish you the best of Luck. The Design just dosen't interest me for Hunting because of some of the Fragile Bullets we had to deal with for decades.

[ He shot a Doe which took two hours to recover. Excellent shot placement and the amount of Energy placed inside the Doe caused the Guts to be shoved " up " between the Left Hip and the Spine, tearing right through the hide. How she was able to move at all made no sense to anyone.

/QUOTE]

This is the classic "innerd shifting" that Hotsh$t patented. A strange phenomenon from a strange man.

Respectfully,