I had to throw this topic in.

I saw a "Heavy Bullets in .308" thread. They were talking about using 180, 200, 220, even 250 gr. slugs for deer/elk sized game. Some one talked about drilling 1" diameter holes through vitals and shooting straight through fairly big critters. That is the opposite of what I try to do. I want to raise holy Hell from entrance wound to the other side of those vitals, then come to a screeching halt, leaving no exit wound. That to me is a perfect hit.

I've shot a .308 Win since the mid-60s on game up through elk. I bought a box of Sierra 180 gr. Spitzers in 1968 or 1969, and I still have half a box left. Never used a 180 on wild game. Never had to. I fired some at targets and taped the box shut.

When I bought the gun (Remington Model 600) in the mid-60s I bought two boxes of 150 gr. something or other, and started killing desert mule deer. Shot plumb through them.

I bought me a Lee Loader somewhere in there and started loading 125 gr. Sierras. The bullet stopped exiting the off-side. (Perfect.)

I moved to Central Texas and started killing those small Texas Whitetail. The 125 gr. Sierras sailed right through them. I bought an RCBS RockChucker and backed down to loading 110 gr. Sierra hollow points. They stopped exiting. (Perfect.)

They literally picked those little bucks up and threw them on the ground. I would field dress them and not find a piece of lung bigger than the size of the palm of my hand. The soft tissue in the inside of their chest cavity looked like it had been vaporized. No meat damage. Just a .30 caliber hole going in.

I started hunting elk in New Mexico and Colorado and stepped up to 165 gr. Sierras and 168 gr. Win. SBSTs; not because I needed to, but because everyone began saying you couldn't kill wild game anymore unless you used a 180 gr. bullet, or bigger. I didn't have the confidence to stop at 150 gr. So I use the 165/168 and the bullet comes to a screeching halt without exiting and the elk is dead within fifty feet of where he's hit. (My guess is the 150 gr. slug would do the same.)

So why is everyone recommending 180 gr. ammo for .308 Win for hunting everything from jackrabbits on up? I don't have clue, but I do have a half box of 35 year old Sierra 180 gr Spitzers that I'll give to anyone that wants them next time I'm in Dallas.

Half the fun of reloading is loading the right ammo for the game you're hunting. Just to pick or recommend the heaviest load in the caliber, seems kind of ________!

I have some friends that love the 130 speer hollow point in the 30-06's up here in wisconsin.
Same scenerio you describe--just a hole going in and then the grenade goes off and the deer dies like it was hit by a truck. And it doesn't seem to bloodshot meat when punched behind the shoulders. These guys take a ton of deer year after year and you wouldn't talk them into anything else. There's also a huge following of the sierra 85 grain hollow point in .243--I'd guess for the same reason.

HEY'
I have killed several deer with my Model #7 .308,using 125 Grain Balistic Tips.They usually drop within sight of my stand.I have also used 165 Grain ballistic tips.Results pretty much the same.I also shoot deer with a 25 Gibbs,with 85 Grainers.Always find my deer close by.
1geejay
www.shooting-hunting.com

I admire your friends for being able to withstand peer pressure, the landslide of opinion to the contrary, and conventional-wisdom (which is nearly always wrong). The lemming approach to bullet selection turns me off.

I used a 300 WSM on Kudu and Oryx this August. I have a great picture of the Kudu's lungs. The wound channel isn't 1" wide it is about 4" wide, with no exit. The lungs of the Gemsbok were too mangled to make sense of.

The bullet was a 150 gr Winchester SBST. A poor choice in 99% of the comments you read about for this caliber and game. Both animals dropped within 15 seconds of being hit at 280 and 220 yards respectively, and required no follow-up. (I don't consider either animal more difficult to kill than a mature bull elk.)

I fail to see what is so BAD about having an exit wound. An exit wound immediatly tells you that you are indeed getting enough penetration. I believe that one can have either not enough or too much penetration.
I agree that the optimum performance is as youve described (stopping just short of an exit wound) but I dont see how simply using a hollowpoint or whatever your using will assure that happens every time, given the many variations of hunting, distances, bone structures, etc. I prefer using a bullet that is less likley to stop short of a clean kill under all circumstances.

One of the finest bullets on the scene for getting right to the job on impact and wreaking holy havoc on the inside is a simple old round nose, but theyre not "missle shaped" so incidently dont fit the flat & long criteria that most folks seem to opt for nowadays.

That's wonderful theory. It will work until you shoot something at a bad angle, or run into a tough critter. I've seen deer take good hits and keep going. Doesn't happen often, but when it does, you have a problem. Without an exit wound, and a blodd trail, you better be really good at tracking.
Elk class stuff are famous for going quite a distance with a good lung shot.
Then one can run into the problem of the bullet blowing up on the surface. Happens with varmit style bullets, and in magnum rounds with standard bullets. Again, not often with big game bullets, but it does happen. With bullets designed for varmit hunting, it much more likely.
If you want to shoot light bullets, try the X.
If you want your animals on the deck when hit, try a shoulder shot. If you can take out the near shoulder and penetrate the lungs, you should have roughly the results most get with a good neck shot. E

No way I'm going to use a varmint bullet on big game. I haven't used my 308 for deer (yet), but the 165 BTs in my 30-06 work like a big hammer on deer and coyotes. I prefer adequate penetration and exit wounds.

Bill

Why take a shot at a bad angle? I don't take those shots. The only thing tough I'm going to hit is one rib, on the way in, maybe. I can't remember when I killed something that wasn't hit behind the shoulder through both lungs. Shooting at big game thinking I better have a good blood trail tells me I need to put a little more thought into the shot. Taking out both lungs doesn't result in a long blood trail, but you do leave a blood trail for the short distance it takes for the game to fall over.

I read in some forum advice on how to hunt Kudu. It included stumbling through heavy cover, and quick evaluation of trophies since you'll be jump shooting at running game at bad angles. DUH!

Are we such poor hunters that that is the best we can do? I can lay a better ambush than that. If we hunt dumb, we're going to shoot dumb.

I do understand why PHs like to see heavy bullets and 6' of penetration, because they've seen a lot of us come down the pike, and they know, without a doubt, that as soon as we see game we are going to start throwing lead in the air.

After you hit that trophy in the ass they don't want a long trailing job, or a paying customer bitching about not getting a trophy for his wall, and wanting to pretend it was a clear miss. They want that heavy bullet to drive up through that ham, those entrails and whatever else is in the way before hopefully reaching something that will anchor the game to the ground. Then you're happy and he's happy.

That's not for me. I'm a hunter.

I will be hunting whitetail this winter with a .308 for the first time. I am also loading my own rounds, both 150grainers. For my first load I will be using 150gr.BTSP Interlock Hornady, and for my second load 150gr.SST interlock Hornady. I have read several good things about both bullets. Comments???

[ 10-08-2002, 23:20: Message edited by: CharlieinKansas ]

Both loads sound good to me. You've got some good sized deer in Kansas. The .308 Win. with 150s will drop'em in their tracks.

I'm kinda like you I started with 125 grain Sierra Spitzers but have switched to 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. No exit is what I like and the deer absorbs all the bullets energy and you don't have to go far to find your deer.

taking my first ever rifle on my first ever deer hunt in 2.5 weeks. It's a 308 and I am loading 180g XLCs over a max charge of Varget. The reason I selected this load was I was preparing for load development and figured I might have an oportunity at elk later this year and certainly next. I decided to find a good loading for both animals. Now that I am a few boxes of ammo and a bunch of reloads down the road this is probably the last time I use this loading. It's great, but like has been mentioned I think I can use 150g Barnes' for deer and maybe elk and certainly 168g for elk. Admittedly as a newer rifle shooter I got caught up by all the hoopla about needing a heavier bullet out of my "underpowered for elk 308 etc. I am not sure I would go much lighter than 150g for deer, but am willing to look at that after collecting my first deer too.

KENSCO,
If you are very selective about the type shots you take as well as bullet placement you may never have a bullet failure with the lighter bullets in a .308 Win.. I can't help but think someday an unnoticed leaf or small limb may spoil your whole hunt. I go along with EREMICUS and BILL M on this one. In fifty years of reloading it seems as if its the "middle of the road loads", rather than the extremist of either end, that works the best. I'm not a Weatherby or Keith fan. They both got results but they both had bad moments that never quite made it into the magazine articles.

DAVE IN LB,
This months issue of Shooters Times has an excellent article on .308 diameter bullet performance. If I recall correctly, and at my age that is not always the case, seventeen different brands of 180 grain bullets were tested. While only the 180 grainers were tested, I think the information is applicible to other weight bullets of the same brand. I'm afraid that you'll not be happy with the Barne's bullet you intend to use. The velocity of the .308 Win is not fast enough to cause the bullet to expand. I think that unless you hit a heavy bone, you'll have a thirty calibre hole in as well as out. Unless there is a possibility of a shot under fifty yards, a non-premium bullet will function nicely from your .308Win.. If you want a bullet that will stay together in close shots and still function at long range you may want to take a look at the Nosler Partition. I use a 150 grain Partition in my .308 Win. and according to this computer, My velocity doesn't drop below 1700 fps until well past 500 yards. Nosler claims the Partition will expand until the velocity drops below 1700 fps. The game I've taken with this bullet agree with that claim. I hope that this is of some help. Good luck

What you describe BigBob is conceivable, but way down my list of worries. Shot selection and shot placement are my driving force. I don't shoot animals screened by brush. I don't shoot running game. I don't pull the trigger outside about 325 yards.

The worst-case scenario you describe crossed my mind when I settled in for the shot on my Kudu in August. I was shielded by a tree, with an open shooting window, except that about ten feet in front of the end of the barrel were the tips of small limbs. The kudu was 280 yards away shielded by brush except for his head and neck.

I mentioned to the PH about the limb tips. We discussed moving, but I rejected the thought. I had a perfect rest, and we had two sets of kudu bull eyes on us.

Thirty five minutes later the kudu I wanted stepped forward from behind the brush and I decked him. The limb tips didn't have an affect, or I didn't hit them. I don't know. I wasn't firing my .308 Win., but I was shooting a 150 gr. round Winchester SBST in my 300 WSM, another round everyone bad mouths, and one obviously 30 gr. too light. The result, another one shot dead trophy.

I've never experienced a bullet failure, and don't believe in bullet-blowup (more sacrilege). They make for nice crutches.

A middle of the road load for me would be a factory load. I think people reload for one of two reasons. Most like to play with the ballistics and fine-tune accuracy. Me I like to pick the bullet/load that matches the game.

It would never cross my mind to load a 165 gr. slug in a .308 Win for coyote, as was mentioned earlier. He'd be eating a 110 gr. hollowpoint for breakfast.

The best evidence I have is the Barnes X will open fully at impact speeds as low as 1700 fps. According to Nosler, their Partiton will open reliably at impact speeds as low as 2000 fps. I have, however, used alot of them. And had them open well at speeds as low as 1800 fps. or so.
Just recently a post was done over on the Long Range Forums by a guy that has been accuracy, and expansion testing the new 168 gr. Barnes XLC. He clocked them at right at 500 yds with an impact velocity of 1700 fps. He recovered them from a special clay mix that is used by people like Gun Tests magazine to test bullet expansion. He reported full expansion. His initial velocity, from a .308, was 2608 fps. He also reported .5 MOA accuracy all the way to 500 yds. E

Eremicus- Good to hear that. I am getting about 2630 out of my 20" barrel with the 180 g XLCs

Big Bob- Thanks for the info. I have thought a little about the Partitions , but I standardized on the Barnes this time through. Next round I will try some others that are quality and not so costly as Barnes, not too mention lighter. Since I don't plan on taking a shot this year past 200 maybe 250 yards(if it's the right shot)I believe the Barnes should work fine. If i tag an deer and recover the pill I'll let you know how it turned out. Thanks again

[ 10-10-2002, 00:40: Message edited by: Dave In LB ]

Interesting topic. I have been brought up more on the heavier side of the bullet theory. It has worked well for me, no compalints. I am always willing to learn different things though. At what speed do you push the 125 gr. Sierras or ballistic tips for the best performance that you desire. Have you tried this in a 270 or in a 7mm mauser. If so I'd be interested to here what bullets you'd recommend and speed to push them at, in order to try out and see how I like this kind of performance for myself. I ask this b/c what I typically shoot will give me an exit hole. I'd at least like to try it on a doe or two this year. May not convert me but I'm open to try.

i shoot a savage 12 i load 168's over 42to46 of varget it's been nice shoothing but for my moose i went with some factory loads, rem core lock 180's for moose i think it will be better plus they wers cheeper then i can load for,

how is your accuracy with the lighter loads as to the + side?

Kensco - Good to have you back. You missed the Artesia homecoming but so did I.

I think you make some very telling points about the lighter bullets in the .308...and this probably applies to other calibers as well if we hunt by your methods.

As a rule, I've tended to lean towards lighter bullets over my hunting career just to get higher muzzle velocity and flatter trajectory more than anything.

I think most hunters use a lot heavier bullet than really necessary...just as most hunters use bigger guns than really necessary. I think it's a bit of a "confidence thing," i.e. they are hoping the gun will make up for any flub ups they might committ and secondly it's just the old American way to believe more is always better.

I subscribe more to a sort of "VooDoo Philosophy" about hunting. If you believe you can do it...it will work.

The only point I would argue with you is "Bullet Blow Up." I sure believe it happens, although not as spectacularly in the .30 caliber as it does in the .224 bore. I've watched too many of them clip a branch and end their flight in a puff of lead colored dust!

I haven't seen a .30 cal come apart this dramatically on game, but I've sure opened up some animals and found a lot of bullet fragments.

But yeah, a 125 gr .30 caliber bullet will probably kill any deer alive. You just might ruin a bit more meat than you want if you're a meat hunter.

just bought a ruger 77mkII today,16"barrel (in .308) or so,alittle over 5 pounds in weight,excellent handy rifle.i've got a remington 700 mountain rifle in stainless(3006) but i'll bet i'll be using this little 308 more than anything i've got,man this little rifle is nice and to what i'm told it'll shoot at least 1" or under with handloads,i'm trying to decide on bullet weight to use,probably 150grs. or less.last year most of my shots were well within 150 yards and i'll betcha this little rifle will hammer the deer in comparison to the rifle and load i used last year,plus i got a tree lounge again so i'll be surely ready to hunt soon.i used to load 165 gr.nosler ballistic tips for my brother for his rem.788 18" barreled rifle and he said he used to drop the deer at the shot with the load..have to say, in the past up til today i was a 7mmstw and big magnum fan for deer but there unneeded for deer,especially after killing to good sized deer with a minimal caliber last year with one shot a piece and they only ran 30 to 50 yards before dropping them.the 308 is a excellent caliber/weapon and in the right hands and loads is good out to 500 yards(which is way beyond the normal expectations in the east.the 308 is a fine caliber even with light bullets,but i prefer exit wounds near dark in heavy fields to find them quick,so i can get home quick....

oh,by the way,everyone knows the 308 is the most accurate caliber out there too,yet to see one shoot over an inch with a 5 shot group,doesnt kick much and is a sure confidence builder.that why its the primary sniper catridge for police and lots of the military...knew one guy that shot a woodchuck out in montana so far away that the bullet he was using only half way penetrated the thing,i'd say a excellent caliber,but i still love the '06,its a good one too.....know a guy that builds rifles for the military in ft.bragg and he says every once in a while they give a lot of 308 that goes into the 3000fps arena,what kind of load that is i dont know but he says its surely a bullet over 160rs.(wont tell anymore info)....so, yes,ill praise the 308 again....

A few years ago i had read several articles in regards to the .308 being to small for big game., Ha, i loaded my ruger ultra lite with 150 grain speers and proceeded to prove this wrong one year. The game goes as follows ( 1 59" moose, 5 caribou, 1 39 2/8 dall sheep ,8 kodiak deer, 2 fox,and 1 real nice black bear)All game where taken within 200 yards with the exception of the sheep and it was 316 yards. My friend ken and i figure you just have to hunt game that have not read about the .308 not being big enough and they won't know there just supposed to run off and giggle. Lite bullet's in a .308 work very well. By the way my sister in law used the .308 for her first alaska moose, it couldnt read either.

Pecos45. I'm not afraid of velocity either. Matter of fact I never pay any attention to velocity. I concentrate on energy. The more energy I send down range the better is my view. Velocity just happens to be attached to the equation. I've shot rounds from 1,000 fps to 3,500 fps and the game keep dying on me. The bullet doesn't do anything funny.

The funniest bullet blow-up story I have is that the brother of my girlfriend in college was kind of goofy. I stayed a weekend with the family once and the kid knew I was a hunter. He asked me to go frog/snake/rabbit/squirrel whatever hunting with him. We shot nothing of interest. He told me he could set two beer bottles, two feet apart and break them with one shot from his .22, big deal I'm thinking.

So he sets the bottles up, takes his new buck knife out sticks it in the ground between the bottles and about two feet in front of them, and says he is going to hit the blade, split the bullet and break both bottles. Sounds good to me. We back off about 50 feet.

He starts blasting away. About 20 shots later the knife and bottles are still unscarred. I was giving him Hell. He says, "you try then if its so easy".

I lie down draw a bead and pull the trigger. The buck knife falls backwards and both bottles explode. I try not to act surprised, like I do that everyday. The downside, for him, was that the bullet split all right, but I don't know if the pieces hit the bottles or that half-dime sized chunk out of his new knife might have wiped one of them out.

The kid thought I was the greatest shot he'd ever seen. I never took another shot in front of him; didn't want to spoil my image.

I'm convinced you can raise Hell with point of impact by hitting a limb, rock, whatever, and send the bullet God knows where in God knows how many pieces, but the bullet blow-up stories that roll my eyes are the ones where the bullet hit the deer's shoulder and exploded with minimal penetration and the buck ran off without a limp. Or the one where the bullet malfunctioned and hit his spine, did a 90, ran up just under the skin to the base of his skull where it stopped, failing to damage the spine.

On another subject, I got a blast from the past today. My brother sent me a copy of a school annual. It was from Buckskin School, Buckskin, Indiana, Barton Township, Gibson County.

My brother's friend bought it at a yard sale for $1.00. The teacher (name on the front) was my grandmother. She was 18. The year was 1906-1907.