There is a thread here about the Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle. One of the distinctive things about that rifle is its internal rotary magazine.

Some Savage 99 rifles had/have rotary magazines. The Ruger 10/22 can be thought of as having a detachable rotary magazine.

Some machine guns -- e.g. the Tommy gun -- have used drum-type rotary magazines.

So, my question: What rifles, besides the MS, the Savage 99, and the Ruger, have used internal rotary magazines? (I'm not interested in machine or submachine guns for the purposes of this question.)

Johnson 1941 semi-auto rifle used a 10 rd internal rotary magazine.

The Krag bolt action rifle has a rotary magazine.

Steyr SSG, ruger 96, Calico M-100.

there was a repeater, Civil War vintage, that had a rotary magazine in the stock, I can't recall the name.

A lot of the Steyr Mannlicher rifles (including the SSG, as KSTEPHENS mentioned) had a rotary magazine. It was developed from the MS. I'm not sure they still use this magazine, but in days past, this was the standard - only the "Luxus" models had in-line magazines.

Btw, both MS and Steyr Mannlicher rifles with wooden stocks and a rotary magazine, have a fairly thin stock over the magazine well due to the wide magazine. It is not unheard of them to break in this location.

- mike

Hi-Shear aka The Omega Bolt Action rifle. It was a real POS design. The housing was flimsy sheet metal the retainer was a flat spring. The rotary mechanism operated with every throw of the bolt, indexing the next round to the top.

Mine was in 300WM, my friend now has it.

Styer M3 Professional.

One fairly recent Mossberg...I think it was called the RX-7. I had one in .30-06, just out of curiosity. It was not a generally well-built rifle IMO, but the magazine worked well.

Edited 4-10-07 to mention that I believe the Mossberg model mentioned above was the RM-7...I think the RX-7 is a Mazda sports car <G>...............

quote:

The Krag bolt action rifle has a rotary magazine.

That is sort of in the eye of the beholder.

Actually the magazine itself in the Krag does not rotate. The cartridges are essentially stacked horizontally instead of vertically in a box under the bolt. Spring and follower pressure forces them up around a curve instead of more or less straight up as in a conventional vertically mounted box magazine.

Al

Did the RX-7 have a 3 pos. safety too??

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
One fairly recent Mossberg...I think it was called the RX-7. I had one in .30-06, just out of curiosity. It was not a generally well-built rifle IMO, but the magazine worked well.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

The Krag bolt action rifle has a rotary magazine.

That is sort of in the eye of the beholder.

Actually the magazine itself in the Krag does not rotate. The cartridges are essentially stacked horizontally instead of vertically in a box under the bolt. Spring and follower pressure forces them up around a curve instead of more or less straight up as in a conventional vertically mounted box magazine.

You have pointed out a distinction without a difference. It is not necessary for the magazine itself to rotate, or even for the weapon to have a removable magazine at all, for the weapon to be properly characterized as a weapon with a rotary magazine.

I would liken the Krag to the Savage 99. Both use a carefully machined internal magazine, albeit with different mechanical features, to feed cartridges into the chamber in a rotary fashion. (And coincidentally, both the Krag and the Savage 99 hold five rounds.)

In the Krag, the rounds are forced by the spring and follower, and the machined body of the internal magazine itself, to move around a built-in curve (i.e., in a rotary fashion) to be picked up by the bolt. That is a rotary magazine.

By the way, the Blaser R93 also has a rotary magazine.

/

anyone who has never held one of the older spoon bolts rotary mags like in a 61 MCA has missed a treat akin to seeing the pyramids. It is an awsome design and smooth as polished bearings on greased glass.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

The Krag bolt action rifle has a rotary magazine.

That is sort of in the eye of the beholder.

Actually the magazine itself in the Krag does not rotate. The cartridges are essentially stacked horizontally instead of vertically in a box under the bolt. Spring and follower pressure forces them up around a curve instead of more or less straight up as in a conventional vertically mounted box magazine.

You have pointed out a distinction without a difference. It is not necessary for the magazine itself to rotate, or even for the weapon to have a removable magazine at all, for the weapon to be properly characterized as a weapon with a rotary magazine..

You are welcome to hold that opinion if you wish. I do not share it.


To me, a rotary magazine is a magazine which has a rotor in it. A Krag magazine does not.

If having the cartridge move up and sideways around a corner when pushed by a spring and a follower was the criterion for a rotary magazine, then any double stack magazine might be considered a rotary magazine by some.

That, of course, is why I said it is "in the eye of the beholder". To some a Krag may have a rotary magazine. To me it does not, and never will, because it does not use a rotor to move the cartridges into feeding position.

But, I do agree it is not a crucially important distinction for most purposes. Just one I think is worth consideration when discussing rotary magazines.

quote:

If having the cartridge move up and sideways around a corner when pushed by a spring and a follower was the criterion for a rotary magazine, then any double stack magazine might be considered a rotary magazine by some.

Man, you are reeeeaaaalllly stretchtchtchtching an already paper thin argument with this comparison.

In fact, I think you stretched it until it reached the point of reductio ad absurdum and broke.

Either the cartridges move rotationally around an axis as they are fed, as a result of a follower or followers that move rotationally by means of machined or moulded rotary elements in the body of the magazine, or they do not.

If they do, then you have a rotary magazine.

If they do not, then you have something else.

Pretty simple to me.

Well, as I said before, you can believe and/or define it however suits your fancy.

To me, a rotary magazine is a magazine which functions by using a rotor to feed the cartridges. A rotor is basically a piece turning on a single axis which has blades or fins. A Krag has no rotor, and therefore to me is not a rotary magazine rifle.

A Mannlicher Schoenauer does have and use a rotor to feed cartridges, as does the Savage 99, and a Mossberg MR-7. So, to me, those are rotary magazine rifles.

To me it is also dead simple. No rotor, no rotary magazine. If it makes you happy to define it some other way, be my guest. Makes no never-mind in the long run. Certainly not worth debating longer about.

So, I will leave you to it. Enjoy.

Just be aware that you are in the minority on this question - perhaps even a minority of one.

If you doubt it, read the reference works on the Krag-Jorgensen, or other rotary magazine rifles, and pay attention to how the the magazines are characterized and described.

Or easier yet, just Google "Krag rotary magazine" and see the hits you get.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mrlexma:
Just be aware that you are in the minority on this question - perhaps even a minority of one.
QUOTE]



I believe you are mistaken in this assumption also.

One of the primarary reference works for the past 59 years in firearms forensics is:

The Book of Rifles, W.H.B. Smith and Joseph E. Smith, The Stackpole Company, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, copyright 1948 by the National Rifle Association, Copyright 1960 & 1963 by The Stackpole Company, 656 pages. There have been numerous updated editions over the years.

On Page 80 of the 1963 edition, it defines and describes rotary magazines as follows:

"Spool or Rotary type magazines. These are basically similar to the box type magazine. Instead of the horizontal follower on which the cartridges are stacked there are a series of concave troughs mounted radially around a spindle or spool. These troughs are so spaced that each cartridge rides in its own cradle. The spool is actuated by a coiled spring which is compressed as the cartridges are pressed into their troughs one after another. The magazine well is milled out with concave side walls and a concave floor plate to accomodate the rotary form of magazine. The rotary magazine may be loaded by inserting single cartridges one after another or the cartridges may be stripped into the magazine out of a charger clip similar to those used for charging some types of box magazines. The rotary magazine is advantageous when rimmed cartridges are used. Each cartridge is carried in its own follower and it is therefore impossible for a loading jam to be caused by the rim of one cartridge locking over the rim of another. With modern rimless cartridges, the simpler less expensive box type magazine has almost eliminated manufacturers' interest in the rotary."



That description, which is historically accepted by both the firearms industry and the courts does NOT fit Krag magazines, and as a matter of fact, the very next separate, distinct, type of magazine described in this encyclopedic reference work is:



"Krag-Jorgensen box magazine. This design is found only on the Danish, Norwegian, and obsolete United States Krag service rifles. This design consists of a box below the action, having a bulky door or gate protruding from the right side of the receiver. The gate is hinged and has a projection to permit it to be turned out by the thumb to expose the magazine proper. (In U.S. and Norwegian design it hinges down; in Danish design it hinges out on a forward hinge.) Loose cartridges are dropped into the magazine and the gate which contains the feeding arm is snapped into place. A lever operated by a spring behind it in the outer wall of the gate acts to force the cartridges ahead into line for feeding. The sole advantage of the Krag-type of magazine is that it permits loading with individual cartridges while keeping the action closed. This is a theoretical advantage since it enables one to keep the chamber loaded for instant action and yet reload the magazine to capacity at any time during battle use. It is impossible to speedily load this arm, since clips designed for it are necessarily cumbersome."



Those descriptions explain the distinctions I was trying to convey, though much better than I could do.

I apologize for any/all typing errors in this post. I was never a clerk, though I have spent more than 30 years as a court-recognized forensic witness regards firearms.

I was NOT trying to insult you or criticize your use of the term "rotary magaizine". Just trying to point out that although some may view it differently, the term applies to the construction of the magazine itself, not the direction or directions in which the cartridges travel. It is a magazine which uses a "spool" or "rotor" as its method for holding and feeding cartridges. The Krag magazine does not meet those criteria, and is its own recognized independent system..

Perhaps I'm putting myself into a minority of two, but if no magazine parts are rotating on an axis, I'd have a hard time calling it a rotary magazine.

I'll sheepishly admit I've never looked at drawings for the Krag. Why did they run the cartridges horizontally?

Regardless, the orginal rotary magazine rifles were the revolver carbines, I suppose.

quote:

Originally posted by asdf:
Perhaps I'm putting myself into a minority of two, but if no magazine parts are rotating on an axis, I'd have a hard time calling it a rotary magazine.

I'll sheepishly admit I've never looked at drawings for the Krag. Why did they run the cartridges horizontally?

Regardless, the orginal rotary magazine rifles were the revolver carbines, I suppose.

These are just guesses, as I don't know if anyone ever asked the designers that exact question, but I'd think maybe several reasons:

1. It was in the day when there was considerable fear amongst some ranking military folk that the troops would "waste" their ammo and be caught without a full magazine of rounds....hence the "cut-off"s on the slightly later Springfield '03, and other, rifles...so the magazine lying horizontal underneath the action was convenient to put a "door" on, and make easily rechargeable by single rounds or "multiple single rounds".

2. If one was going to try to avoid the Mauser double column magazine for legal or cost (licensing) reasons, it still allowed good capacity and a relatively shallow depth of action (body) under the bolt. That would likely make the rifle both feel and "look" better to some than trying to use a single column system of more depth.

3. Who knows, there may have even been some slight "to be different" or "latest gimmick" factors at play as well?

Wish I had the opporunity to ask the originators....

So it's the old game of duelling expert testimony, is it? You can't just cherry pick a source that's over forty years old and expect that to go unchallenged as the last word, now. Please . . .

Still, I don't have time to consult my sources and type out the retorts. Let it suffice to say that far more sources, and Krag specific sources at that, cite the Krag as having a rotary magazine than otherwise.

BTW, rotary magazines have the benefit of saving space in terms of magazine DEPTH. Their chief drawback is that they can make for thin stock panels on either side of what becomes a wider, but shallower, magazine.

Well, far from cherry picking, that was the very first source I picked up off the shelf. And it isn't 40 years old. I believe it may still be in print and still has revised editions coming out every few years.

Believe it or don't, technical terms have rather stable denotations, as well as ever changing connotations. Technically they mean specific things, regardless how carelessly they may be thrown around by whatever number of people. A rotary magazine means just that...a "magazine" which works by application of a "rotor" or"spool" as the core of the mechanism.

At any rate, I am sure we are both thinking about the same thing right now...i.e., "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink think."

So why don't we leave it at that? You will never change your view, and I cerrtainly am not going to change mine in regards to the wway a Krag magazine works. So, as I normally enjoy and sometimes share your wiews. we can part on this one as simply agreeing to disagree.

Best wishes, and to more aggreable times.

Ah . . . I like you, even though you are a stickler for points not worth sticking to.

Most experts want $500 an hour, and forensics generally don't get into the nitty gritty of magazine type.

Generally it stops at whose Glock was it?

Still, I will go my own way, and agree that best wishes are better than most get or are entitled to, yet offer them back to you on this ultimately picayune point.

Concerning which you are entirely in the wrong, by the way.

Just kidding . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

I'll sheepishly admit I've never looked at drawings for the Krag. Why did they run the cartridges horizontally?

Whatever the design reason, I read that it could be "topped up" easely with the bolt closed and loaded ready for action.

The new version of the Browning T-bolt has a rotary magazine. As I understand it, it is something of a "figure 8".

Some of the aftermarket high capacity magazines for the Ruger 10/22 are rotary, but since the 10/22 has already been IDed, I don't suppose that counts as another.

The Ruger 77/22H in .22 Hornet uses the same type magazine as the 10-22, but it is definately for a different gun and in a different caliber, so I'll nominate that as a new example.

And if you count the Mac-90 variant of the AK-47 as a "sporter", then the available drum magazine should count.