Do the AR15 type rifles normally produce two shot groups, then the group spreads, unless allowed to cool between shots?

KB

many are repeatable tack drivers. roger

Roger,
I have read that so many times that I expected it, but I'm having trouble getting groups less than 2 or 3 inches. Often the first two shots are touching, then the flyers start.

No, I'm not allowing time to cool, because I figure what's the use in owning an autoloader if at least three shot groups are not possible shooting 30-45 seconds apart.

However, with some of my bolt actions, the criteria for deciding it's a good rifle often has been first and second shot accuracy, fired quickly one after the other, with the third shot a bonus if it groups right in there too.

I have some bolt action rifles that seem pretty much unaffected by heat from 3-5 shots fired quickly.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

However, with some of my bolt actions, the criteria for deciding it's a good rifle often has been first and second shot accuracy, fired quickly one after the other, with the third shot a bonus if it groups right in there too.
KB

Good thinking if you are not hunting PDs or such.
If you don't count the first 2 or 3 shots what Pattern does it shoot?
Almost all of the ARs I see on the range that are tack drivers have been greatly accurized. These compared to out of the box bare bones ARs are like comparing apples to chest nuts. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Good thinking if you are not hunting PDs or such.

If you don't count the first 2 or 3 shots what Pattern does it shoot?

Almost all of the ARs I see on the range that are tack drivers have been greatly accurized. These compared to out of the box bare bones ARs are like comparing apples to chest nuts. roger

IMO, PD shooting isn't hunting. It's and excuse for killing for the sake of killing something.

Beyond the first three shots the groups open up to 3 to 4 inches.

I'm sorry to read that there is that much difference in the out-of-the-box ARs and accurized ones. However, that has also been my experience with bolt actions as well, with the occasional lucky exception.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
IMO, PD shooting isn't hunting. It's and excuse for killing for the sake of killing something.
KB

This is a statement born of ignorance.

PD shooting is the most ecologically sound means of controlling PD populations. The only other option is poisoning them.

It reduces the financial burden on ranchers and farmers by allowing more forage for their livestock or more crops to be saved for harvest. They also do not have to resort to poisoning entire PD towns.

George

They could stop shooting and trapping the badgers and ferrets, and other predators.

Shooting PDs is a necessity born from years of environmental ignorance and neglect, and shooting them under false pretense that it's the only way except poison is ignorance perpetuated.

Unfortunately, it is the most expedient way, and definitely preferred over poison, which kills indiscriminately.

I just don't like a sport that is rationalized, but it's basically about just killing with something that goes bang.

I'v seen lots of photos of dead badgers shot in the PD colony. If control was the goal, the shooter would leave the badger alone instead of killing it. Killing is the goal, PD control is the excuse.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
They could stop shooting and trapping the badgers and ferrets, and other predators.

Shooting PDs is a necessity born from years of environmental ignorance and neglect, and shooting them under false pretense that it's the only way except poison is ignorance perpetuated.

Unfortunately, it is the most expedient way, and definitely preferred over poison, which kills indiscriminately.

I just don't like a sport that is rationalized, but it's basically about just killing with something that goes bang.

I'v seen lots of photos of dead badgers shot in the PD colony. If control was the goal, the shooter would leave the badger alone instead of killing it. Killing is the goal, PD control is the excuse.

KB

Your ill-considered thoughts, opinions, and dislikes don't matter to those who provide us with our victuals.

They have to earn a living for themselves and their families; if shooters can help them do so, we should (and I have).

Why don't you offer to pay for the reintroduction of badgers and ferrets to help the ranchers and farmers, and to assuage your sense of umbrage?


George

Is your AR15 have a free float handguard? If not that might be the problem causing the flier.

+1 to what Doug said.

A free float handguard should help a lot, as well as a higher quality barrel if it's a cheaper AR. Past that I'd look at the trigger to ease shooting groups, and the stocks are often not made for being steady from a bench.

The handguard is free floating.

I replaced the factory trigger with a Timmney.

I'm using the short magazine, and building the sandbags up high enough to bridge the magazine.

What I've got is one of the R-15s in 30RAR. The cartridge itself ought to be fine, in the right platform.

I thought this thing was made by DPMS, so I called them this morning. They informed me that they only assemble the parts for Remington, and I should call Remington if I have an issue. So, I called Remington, and they confirmed that they contract out the parts, and have DPMS assemble them. I was told that most likely my issue is from the barrel and bolt, and carrier heating up. Two quick accurate shots is normal.

My thought is that I don't need an autoloader for a two shot group.

I'm really trying to decide whether to keep this rifle or not, or other options, such as rebarrel only, or sell the upper only. DPMS does make a 30RAR upper, which I suspect is better than the one I have.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Good thinking if you are not hunting PDs or such.

If you don't count the first 2 or 3 shots what Pattern does it shoot?

Almost all of the ARs I see on the range that are tack drivers have been greatly accurized. These compared to out of the box bare bones ARs are like comparing apples to chest nuts. roger

IMO, PD shooting isn't hunting. It's and excuse for killing for the sake of killing something.

Beyond the first three shots the groups open up to 3 to 4 inches.

I'm sorry to read that there is that much difference in the out-of-the-box ARs and accurized ones. However, that has also been my experience with bolt actions as well, with the occasional lucky exception.

KB

Your AR was designed to kill men.
What use have you rationalized for it?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Your AR was designed to kill men.
What use have you rationalized for it?

Remington says my R-15 was designed for hunting. They have video on youtube to prove it. No rationalization needed. Just belief, intent and a four-shot magazine.

Oh yes, I consulted the wisdom of Jim Zumbo before purchasing. My understanding is that if it's not black, but camo instead, then it's fine to be hunting deer and hogs with.

KB

Keep in mind that AR-15 platform was designed around the military specification of 4 MOA or less. Most of todays shooters find this absurd, but that is the reality of it.

Sometimes all of the planets are in alignment and you get one that shoots 2 MOA, but that is the exception.

There is a reason that the AR type tackdrivers command premium prices.

He has probably never had to put down a horse/cow that has broken it's leg after going in a hole.

Hey, guys, I appologize for my PD comments. Forgive please, and I'll try to not make that mistake again.

It's only a slight difference of opinion, nothing serious. I would shoot the little buggers too. BTW, how do they taste? Which do you like best; fried, roasted or baked?

KB

I have 3 AR15's and they all shoot sub moa with most ammo I have tried including handloads. Mine do not have free floating handguards yet but will before long. I have shot three and five shot groups as fast as I can get the crosshair back on target with groups staying under 1" at 100yds in 90 degree heat. I would try several different brands of ammo or if you handload, different combinations of powder and bullets. It could be the twist rate vs the bullet weight you tried.

KB - Does your "Remingchuck" have a chrome-lined barrel?

If it does, at the risk of causing Hell's fury to rain down on me from all sides, I would suggest trying fire-lapping if nothing else works and you are about to give up on your rifle.

As I have posted here on AR before, my brand new Bushmaster "Super-Varminter" as I received it from the factory would not group ANY variety of ammo into 3-shot groups of less than 3 MOA at 100 yards. Most of the groups were bigger than that.

I sent it back to the factory. They shot it, and sent it back with 3 targets of 3 shot roups each. With THEIR test ammo, it showed exactly the same thing...3" groups at 100 yards. They included a letter saying that performace met their specs. Needless to say, I was not enchanted.

At my wits end, I carefully fire-lapped it and by the end of the process it would shoot 10-shot groups of just under 1 MOA at 100 yards.

I think the chrome-lining process must have caused a burr or something else to screw up the barrel's performance. Anyway I am now happy with it and didn't have to spend a lot of money rebuilding it to get acceptable hunting acuracy.

Fire-lapping may not work for your rifle, but as a last resort, it just might.

I've tried handloads, and they were an improvment over the factory loads. I tried some of the 130 gr Barnes TTSX yesterday, and they shot about the same accuracy as the 150gr Hornadys.

There are few choices in the data I've found. H335, H322, Benchmark, H4895, IMR4895.

The twist rate is 1 in 10". I would prefer 1 in 12", since the 150gr flat base seems about the best for hunting.

AC, it is not chrome lined

KB

It could be just shooter error.

Thanks for the help PL, I'll check that.

KB

I think it started with me when I was just a boy with a BB gun. My father was a little cautious about guns. I think he was right, of course, and I think some of it came from him being a veteran of WWII. He was not an agressive kind of guy, although rather opinionated. Anyway, he was keen about teaching us boys to not just shoot birds just to be killing something, even though we had lots of english sparrows, starlings, which were not indigenous species. You know, boys with toys can cause lots of trouble for a father.

I think the message stuck, and influences my opinion about prarie dogs, even though my logic tells me something different. Also, I happen to like badgers. I like and admire their dispositions, and toughnes. It's too bad they don't fit in well with farming and ranching practices. Much like wolves and brown bears -- I like them too because they represent something wild that we can't change, only dominate and eliminate. I saw a picture of a badger once that was rolled up in a round bail of hay. The thing went through the bailing machine and was still alive.

KB

i would seriously re-think buying a dpms upper built with remington parts to replace your dpms upper built with remington parts.
i'd give some 123-5 gr bullets a try before i gave up.
they are what the round was origionally built around.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
i would seriously re-think buying a dpms upper built with remington parts to replace your dpms upper built with remington parts.

Now that's a good one.

I figured different. Now that you mention it, I will surely inqure with DPMS about that before I buy.

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this rifle/contraption, but it's making my simi-custom Ruger 77MkII in 308 seem pretty darn good.

KB

KB, when I went PD hunting in Wyoming last September there seven different badgers spotted by us the first day in a 40 acre field. Also about 2,000 Richardson's ground squirrels and probably 500-700 PDs. I don't belive it's badgerly possible to eat them faster than they breed. But the raptors and crows sure feast the morning after. So nothing goes to waste.


Back on topic, that seems like particularly poor performance from an R-25. Jeffe's shoots an inch shot after shot, better when he really trys for groups. Most other people I know with an r-25 claim 1-1,5 inch max. "Most" in this case means three.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
i would seriously re-think buying a dpms upper built with remington parts to replace your dpms upper built with remington parts.

Now that's a good one.

I figured different. Now that you mention it, I will surely inqure with DPMS about that before I buy.

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this rifle/contraption, but it's making my simi-custom Ruger 77MkII in 308 seem pretty darn good.

KB

I called DPMS, and found out the uppers are made from the same parts. Rem is camo, and DPMS is black. That's about the only difference.

So, I called Remington, and will probably send the upper in for warranty service and see how that goes.

I like the cartridge enough to keep messing with it for a while.

KB

I don't know what kind of temps you are shooting in up there, but if it is real hot, like in the 80s with sun, if you are taking a long time to shoot that third round, it may be your cooking your case - heating the powder. That case will generate some heat pretty quickly and those ar chambers get hot quicker than the barrel. Try getting your third off in less than say 7 seconds and see if it makes a diffrence.

It rarely makes it to 60 degree here in the summer. 80 would be a heat wave and probably set some kind of record. Lately, it's rained and then rained some more, with temps usually less than 50 F. The summer has been pitiful so far and may actually be over. It's depressing but not nearly so as last winter.

I took the scope off and boxed the rifle up and plan to send it to an authorized gunsmith tomorrow. i'll try your recommendation when I get it back, if the range is not snowed in already.

KB

KB--A badger went through a hay bailer and was still alive. Well duh. Hay bailers don't come in a box with a picture of a badger on them. Maybe a cow or a horse. Now a cow or a house wouldn't survive going through a hay bailer, if they are shown on the box.

An AR often doesn't shoot well from a bench because of the round hand guards. You may have to use a sling to get it to shoot.

If it doesn't shoot then it probably needs a new barrel. There isn't a whole lot to making an AR shoot other than the barrel. The barrel should be tight, the float tube should not touch the gas block, and the gas key should be tight and should slide smoothly over the gas tube. That's about it. There ain't a whole lot more you can do to them unless you are trying to get the last .050" in grouping ability.

ARs are not the prima donnas that the old M1s and M14s were.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Now a cow or a house wouldn't survive going through a hay bailer, if they are shown on the box.

How do you know? Have you been through a hay bailer before you were shown the box? If so that would explain a lot.

KB

KB--How do I know? I know all about the picture depicted on the box. I learned it from the biggest legend in his own mind of all time.

My buds H-Bar will wallow out a hole until the mag goes dry. 2# Jewel trigger and 60gr. Vmax does nice things.

KB,

I play with ARs and have had little difficulty getting 5.56, 6,8 and 300 BLK rifle to deliver MOA or better.

Typically, I make sure everything is tight and nothing is touching the bbl. When one doesn't shoot what is known to be high quality ammo, I will step back to a combination that works well in one of my other rifles. Usually driven by RL-15 for the 5.56 rifles, a 110 gr SPH load for the 6,8s, or a subsonic handload with 220 gr SMKs for the BLK.

If that doesn't work, I usually take the darned thing apart and square the upper receiver and reinstall the bbl with blue loctite to bed it.

Some bbls seem to need abt 100 rds to smooth them out.

It has been noted that some rifles with 1/2x28 threaded muzzles are sensitive as the threading is not concentric. Have not seen that with 5/8x24 threaded muzzles but may just have been lucky.