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| One of Us |
Just went to the "Big Bores" Boring. Anything past a 375 hurts to shoot. If I could afford to hunt in Africa, my attention would be towards the hunt, not rifles. Medium does both.  | ||
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Anything past a 375 hurts to shoot. Maybe you just need to HTFU  . | |||
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Hit The WeightliFting OUtlet? Yes, I agree. | |||
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Probably have the same effect of Hardening The F up It's not your opinion on big bores that is the issue, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I was just stunned that you admitted what you did. i thought they bread them tough in Saskatchewan. | |||
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i agree. if i hunted elephants for a living, my battery would include a double .470 and single shot .577 but as elephant hunting is one of those once in a lifetime experiences, i see no need of anything bigger than .375. it will just collect dust, and make me flinch. i'm probably getting a 9.3x62 | |||
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I don't know about that. My 458 Win Mag has become my primary deer rifle. It was built as a deer rifle, and i don't shoot maximum loads. I do keep some hot loads on hand for when friends want to try it. I like my smaller guns, too. Jason | |||
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I find them very interisting after building my frist a 416. I now need a 458 lott just the matter of finding a good used one and FTF sale. | |||
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Big bores are fun, but can put too much pressure on the meniscus surrounding the brain, which explains some of the attitudes of certain posters. That being said, the 375 H&H is fun to shoot, and the 416 Rigby is just plain fun, in a head rattling sort of way. The 458win has been hailed as the most ubiquitus of the big bores in Africa. And the 458 lott is the most touted cure to a problem we're not sure truly exists. But my love goes to those monstrosities that begin with a number over 500, not sure I need one, but it is something cool to have, and a great way to eliminate surplus powder. John | |||
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I'm a genuine big bore nut (as in over .500) but they don't get shot much on unemployment benefits. I knew that old 30-06 in the corner would have a valid use one day.... "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I wouldn't count on the 375H&H for everthing. I have a 458 Lott and have been to Africa with my 300 RUM shooting 200gr Nosler partition. I wasn't hunting DG I shot 4 different animals. It wouldn't take the 458 Lott to kill them. The Lott is for an Elephant in a near future | |||
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I may get flamed for this, but never having shot anything bigger than a .308 in a rifle before. What would be the comparison between a big bore, say a .416 rigby or a .470, and a 50 cal Muzzleloader with 150 gr magnum load be? The largest bullet/load combo I've ever shot was a T/C Omega 250 gr bullet/150 gr magnum load! Just wondering how the big bores compare! | |||
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| one of us |
It depends on three things, the first being the velocity. A 500 grain 458 Win Mag can be very comfortable to shoot whereas a 500 grain 460 Wby will always take some practice to master. So bore size is the lesser issue. The second is really two combined; rifle weight and stock design. If the rifle is weighted properly for the cartridge (again, cartridge not caliber alone) and the stock is designed to manage recoil, you've won most of the battle. The last is technique. Most people that have problems shooting big bores never had the opportunity to learn from someone proficient in their use to learn how to do it right. All that said, if you do it all right you can enjoy shooting a big bore as much as your 308 and for many rounds per session. At least as many as your pocketbook allows. As for the comparison with a 50 cal muzzle loader, I think you need to get into the 800-1000 grain calibers with stiff loads of black powder to begin to draw a comparison. I guess that would be 70 cal or bigger. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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As tiggertate points out there are a lot of variables with rifle weight and stock design having much to do with the felt recoil. I have two 375 H&Hs - a Whitworth and a CZ and have had a Winchester. The Whitworth at @ 8 lbs is felt but shootable. The CZ at @9+ pounds is not bad. A 450 Win Mag Whitworth has noticeable and unpleasant recoil. No more than a few (5-6) shots on a bench at the range - a few more if off sticks or standing. But, even then, it's comparable to a lightweight shotgun with 3 inch mag shells. "Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult." | |||
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It depends if you are loading the Big Bore with black powder or smokeless powder. The 416 doesn't kick as hard as the 470 does either, in equivalent rifles. Basically, the 50cal front stuffer doesn't kick (particularly in one of those modern inline abortions, which I must assume you are using since an old school side lock would not much care for 150gr of BP), so there really isn't much if any of a comparison. | |||
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I love shooting my medium bores 375 H&H, 416 Rem, 458 Lott, and 470 Nitro. One day I will buy a big bore.  None of the rifles I listed above kick very hard. I am shooting a 500 grain swift at 2225 out of the Lott which makes it the most powerful (in terms of energy) of the ones listed above. I can easily shoot 30 to 40 rounds at one session. I have been to Africa a couple of times and have another trip planned. Focus on your rifle is important but everybody has their opinion. | |||
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I have a Ruger No.1 Tropical/SS/458 Lott which I have no earthly reason to own one, but came to me in like new condition and when I go to the range to shoot it, it is an adventure as opposed to just a visit to the range and practice. Similar to loading one of those mountain Howitzers, other than hand held. Open the breech block, drop the shell in with a metalic clunk, close and fire and the results are no way boring. Now that I have tamed the NO.1 w/ adequate pad, recoil reducer, practice, it is actually fun for me to shoot. On a good day, can shoot 3-5 shot groups off hand some 2-4" and not hard to see the holes in the target face. If you sought out the definition of "bang for the buck" the Ruger NO. 1, 458Lott meets that definition completely. JMO MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL !! martin | |||
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I think big bores = penis envy  Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Some of the "Big Bores" are fun to shoot! David | |||
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I think big bores = penis envy : you think wrong ! Big bores are fun to shot, that's right, and you have a flair of old hunting tradition ! If you use big bores in the field or not, that's your problem, but for a big game hunter shooting big bores is a must ! No place for softies in this work ! The use of rubber recoil pads is only a tolerance ! | |||
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We shot my 458 Mag with near max loaded 400's, then shot my Mossberg 835 with 3.5" turkey loads, we all agreed that the shot gun hurt more. That thing is nuts. Jason | |||
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Quite the troll thread topic.  Obviously lacking the ba**s to post in the BB section, it is no wonder the OP has problems with recoil. But my .375WCF does not generate excessive recoil nor is it an elephant cartridge - it works great for deer and black bear. I could say the same for my .44 Magnums and .45-70s. My .50-70-750 is 'getting there' but is still fun to shoot with no danger of brain damage. I guess the OP just lacks a full understanding of rifle chamberings...... | |||
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"A wise man knows his own limitations..." I really like shooting big bores, there's a sense of accomplishment in controlling the uncontrollable. About the penis envy, never had any complaints; AND, unlike some here I have never taken silence for approval. Shoot what you want, and can afford, and can afford to take to Africa hunting Dangerous Game. Rich | |||
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I love big bores because the small. medium bores can't knock over the heavy steel targets on the 50 yard line at my range. Plus its fun to see the small bore guys look on in mock horror! A few weeks back I overheard one of the guys on the firing line say to his friend " he should be on the 100 yard range with that cannon" I just repeated that famous quote to him, Dangerous game isnt dangerous at 100 yards. I know, I know, karma will catch up with me. | |||
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True, I always envy those with small bore penises! Ahh, the only problem with big bores is that some of those that shoot them think they are better than everyone else. | |||
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You're right! Those 835s are brutal! The first and only one I shot had a hard plastic butt plate and it kicked the snot outta me. I'd rather shoot my 550 Magnum any day. Mike, maybe that's where the "short and fat" needle bore syndrome came from... "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Ahh, the only problem with big bores is that some of those that shoot them think they are better than everyone else.[/QUOTE] I think no ! We are too old for this ! When i started with hunting, there are about 40 years, my first rifle was a 9,3x64, i used it for shooting roe deers and wildboars ! Many years later, for shooting buffalos in Africa, in my opinion i had to do that with a bigger caliber, and i bought in a first time a 460WM ! I think that's the reason by many hunters, if you use, for any reasons, big cartridges for shooting small game, then you use bigger ones for heavy game. I cannot shoot a elefant with a cartridge that i use all the time for wildboar hunting ! | |||
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I have experience on big game with smaller caliber too ! I shot about 20 buffalos in Africa and Asia with cartridges like the 9,3x74R, 375H&H, 10,75x68, 416 Rem.Mag., 460WM and 500 Jeffery. Sometimes you have not the choice and only a small one for hunting. But the big bores are the best what i used, especialy when i had problems ! In the same way, when i stand before a elefant ant then if i look at a cartridge 375H&H, i have a problem ! | |||
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why? | |||
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The cartridge is too small for this big animal ! For me, a elefant cartridge start at caliber .458 ! We all know that the smaller calibers are a compromise to make easy the big game hunting for all people ! But no problem, we have the PH behind us ! | |||
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some of the old experienced elephant hunters would disagree with you, using cartridges such as .375, .400NE, .404, .416 etc (i'm not referring to Bell, since he hunted them differently from what we do today) | |||
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Some of, yes, but most ivory hunters used very big bores like the 577NE. There are no advantage to use smaller one ! Behind all the stories you have the people who cannot shoot for different reasons big bores ! The question is, why do you hunt big game if do you have a problem with the push against the shoulder, a little pain if you compare what happen on the another side of your rifle ! | |||
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| One of Us |
Ivory hunters had a big reason to use a lesser caliber, cost. The rifles costed more, the ammo costed more and might have been scarce, and it cost money to have porters pack all the extra weight. The most successful caliber prior to the advent of the 458 winmag was the 404 Jeffery, the larger calibers were usually used by affluent sportsmen rather than professional ivory hunters. Again, nothing wrong with big bore rifles. Have plenty and use plenty. But truthfully, we have had very famous people kill ions with a .303, elephants with a 275 Rigby and moose with a .243. Granted, not the wisest of choices for the average hunter, but if you can kill an elephant with a 7x57 mauser, you most certainly can with a 375H&H. I have also seen more one-shot kills on buffalo with a 416 than I have with a 458 lott. Makes one wonder. As for a little push, and a bit of pain, more game has been wounded by folks afraid of their rifle than those having to small of a caliber. There is an old saying, "Don't shoot yourself in the foot. If you do shoot yourself in the foot, don't brag about how big the gun is." Again, the problem with "big rifles" is that they often create big egos. It doesn't take anything special to shoot one. With time and practice, most anyone can shoot a 577 T-rex accurately. However, one could argue that the world is ripe with over-gunned hunters filled with the idea that nothing short of a 460 wby will bring down an elephant, when in reality, with patience and proper shot placement, a 30-06 could do the job. John enough ranting already... Merry Christmas! | |||
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Very well said Rich! Some people just don't have what it takes too shoot a Big Bore rifle, but thats why the 270 is so popular. Girls need guns too!  " If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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| One of Us |
Amazing what happens when you throw a little bait in the water. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Nice choice. I would really like to have a CZ-550 in 9.3 X 62. My comment starting this thread was based on the techinical aspects of accurate rifle shooting based on precision. That is what I find interesting. Taking an action and trueing it, precision fitting the stock etc. Then precisely aiming and allowing the gun to almost shoot itself into a clover leaf!! Big bores border more on shotgunning. Especially those used for elephant. They kick so much that much of the technical aspects of the shooters form involves mitigating the recoil vs. holding steady. Boring. "Only accurate rifles are interesting to me" | |||
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A 9.3x62 is a fine cartridge capable of taking any game that bleeds. You won't go wrong with it. Enjoy! I had one but opened it up to a 9.3x64 A little more umf." If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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The CZ 9.3 is a fine rifle, I bought one for my wife. I think you would find the big bore builds are just as technical as the smaller calibers and shoot extremely well. If you like technical try regulating a double rifle. What I like is shooting offhand and from position with the big guns. To me that is the technical aspect of good shooting. It is also why I shoot highpower matches instead of benchrest. | |||
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The nice thing about big bores is when you switch from shooting that 500 Jeffery to that little 7 1/2 lb 300 Magnum, recoil is not an issue it feels like a 243. I've shot a 270 most of my life, it took the better part of six months to be as good offhand with my 500 Jeffery as I am with the 270. You have to be a bit careful with a big bore as far as shooting postion goes, can't take her for granted or she'll bite you ...  Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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All it takes is a bad experience and a real scare to potentially develop a phobia to recoil. In reading last month's issue of Rifle Shooter, Boddington and Weiland both had bad experiences. Boddington had a double fire and Weiland had a hangfire. Now they seem much more conservative in articles I have read by them. I suspect they both had very bad injuries that left a lasting impression. I would expect articles in the future from both that would include recoil and a return back to conservative calibers. We will probably see the 30-06, 308, 7mm-08, 7 X 57, 270 etc. written about concerning recoil. | |||
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I had a double fire with my DR 577NE too ! The recoil was very hard, but I use my rifle again ! I am very surprised that great hunters like Boddington have a problem with this ! | |||
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