I'm having problems with neck tension (too little) while loading .300 WSM's. This is the second reloading for these shells since new (no problems with the first reloading). I did NOT neck turn these, I checked my Redding die expander ball (.3060" = OK), I checked the bullets diameters (.3081" = OK), I DON"T run max pressure so it isn't the brass being too far compressed. Any ideas ??

I contacted Barnes Bullets about this situation for possible answers and so far, all I've gotten is a link to their website newsletter which I alread get (big help ).

I've used the 'X' bullets for YEARS without any problems but just recently swithched to the TSX's. I've also checked the search on this thread and see others are having the same problem but so far no answers. Thanks

How does the problem manifest itself?? Do you feel bullets seat too lightly, or can you actually move the bullets (e.g. with your fingers) in some of the loaded rounds??

Does the problem occur with all rounds, or just with some??

If you can establish a number of rounds in which the problem occurs, measure loaded neck diameter. Then pull the bullets and measure the diameter of the bullets. If the bullet diameter is OK, then the problem lies in the brass. Now compare to loaded neck diameter of rounds where the problem does not occur.

It could be that some cases have thin walls. It could be that some bullets have incorrect diameters.

.002" is not a BUNCH of neck tension in a .300. It is probably barely sufficient, and that amount of tension won't allow you to deal with much variation in either neck wall thickness or bullet diameter.

If you don't find the problem in the bullets or the cases, it would be interesting to know the neck diamter you get of cases sized without an expander, with an expander and with a bullet seated.

Did you run the new cases through the FL sizing die, or did you just expand the necks, or did you seat the bullets in "virgin" brass when you loaded them first time??

- mike

IMO:

I'll try to answer most of your questions.
The bullets are all (loaded 40 of them) loose enough to move with your fingers. I crimped them in after checking them (which I didn't want to do....but did to correct the problem).

I measured the expander ball in my .300 win mag die (RCBS) and it mic'd at .3064" so I REALLY don't think the problem with WSM die at .3060" is the problem.

It is Winchester brass I'm using and it was virgin brass the first time reloaded. It's hard to fathom that the neck brass would 'thin' that much in one firing?

The few virgin brass necks I still have UNLOADED but have resized measure outside dia. of .3360" and the LOADED shells below the crimp measure .3382". I really don't want to pull bullets on crimped shells. I'll use them as is but want to keep the old distance to the lands I had before (which doesn't work with crimping).

Checking other .30 cal. die pins, they all mic about .306" which seems to be the standard for that caliber ! And yes, it was a FL resizer die I used. Redding makes good stuff. I don't think they're the problem.

As a follow-up, I already stated that I've measured many of the TSX bullets and all were where at .308". The one thing that I have noticed is that the TSX bullets have a real shine to them (almost a glaze) that the old 'X' bullets don't have. Others in this forum have suggested that the copper may be a harder formula and some thought it might be the "glaze"?

I hate to think that I can only get 2 loadings out of new brass but it may be I have a bad batch of brass?? I'm going to try firing a couple rounds and relaod to a different brand of bullet to see if they hold in the neck OK.

I have also experienced this problem with Barnes TSX bullets. In fact, a poster on one forum, mentioned a box of commercially loaded cartridges with very loose bullets.

This is my theory on what is happening:

1. TSX bullets have circumferential grooves which decrease the contact area with the case neck.
2. A copper jacketed lead bullet gives a little when seated allowing for minor variations in neck diameter while the TSX bullet doesn't.
3. When resized, when the case is pulled out of the die and the neck goes over the expander ball, the proximal part of the neck is pulled on making the diameter there slightly larger than at the mouth of the case. This further decreases the amount of the bullet in contact with the case neck.

Solutions? In a 30/06 I load for, the Lee factory crimp die made the bullets firmly secured in the case neck. In a 300 Weatherby Magnum, sizing the neck with a Lee Collet die made me able to seat the bullets firmly. I have given up on using TSX bullets in a 375 H&H Magnum because so many of the bullets are loose. I think the reason is that the design of this cartridge makes the proximal part of the case neck more liable to stretching.

As an aside, before I solved the TSX problem with my 30/06, I shot two three shot groups at 100 yards. One was with the bullets firmly in place and the other with bullets so loose I could easily turn them with my fingers. The group shot with the loose bullets was the smallest.

Make sure your neck expander ball is proper size. Also lube the inside of the necks! You don't want the expander to pull on the neck. I use graphite powder for this app. Check with your die manuf as to the proper expander ball size if you want a definitive answer. Also you must ensure that the round is properly set/centered in the shell holder and that the shell holder is in right too. So the pull is straight and even.

quote:

Originally posted by Gone Balllistic:
Checking other .30 cal. die pins, they all mic about .306" which seems to be the standard for that caliber ! And yes, it was a FL resizer die I used. Redding makes good stuff. I don't think they're the problem.

I hear what you're saying, but that doesn't change the fact that the expander is too large for use with that bullet. The fact that the expander in your other .30 caliber dies is also .306" is meaningless. If the bullets are correct diameter and are loose WITHOUT a crimp, then you don't have enough neck tension to hold the bullet - and crimping won't cure the problem if the rifle produces more than mild recoil.

Again, .002" isn't much. Absent significant recoil, it will work with conventional jacketed bullets. Grumulkin is right, though. The monometal ribbed and grooved designs like the TSX have less contact area (and thus less friction) with the neck, and will often require more neck tension to hold. The only way to increase it is to reduce the diameter of the expander, or eliminate it entirely.

Try this - size a few of the suspect cases with the expander/decap assembly removed from the die completely, then seat a few bullets without crimp. If they're still loose, either the brass or the die is defective, and I'd bet on the die. If they're tight, then a too large expander is all that remains. Just turn down the expander a couple thou at a time until the problem goes away, or throw it away and do without.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Grumulkin and 400 Nitro;

I think both of you are correct. I can see this is a flaw in what is otherwise Barnes' good idea. Tonight I'm going to do as you say and try re-sizing without the expander ball in. I'll measure before and after to see.
There's something wrong with the bullets though if you have to reduce neck size different from any other bullet. That would make other brands "too tight"? and probably increase runout.

Grum, I agree the copper solids probably don't "give" when seating and as you say, there isn't much contact with the groves and all. Looks like poor design of a great idea.

P.S. I use a Forster Co-ax press so it ISN'T die allignment.

quote:

Originally posted by Gone Balllistic:
IMO:

I'll try to answer most of your questions.
The bullets are all (loaded 40 of them) loose enough to move with your fingers. I crimped them in after checking them (which I didn't want to do....but did to correct the problem).

I measured the expander ball in my .300 win mag die (RCBS) and it mic'd at .3064" so I REALLY don't think the problem with WSM die at .3060" is the problem.

It is Winchester brass I'm using and it was virgin brass the first time reloaded. It's hard to fathom that the neck brass would 'thin' that much in one firing?

The few virgin brass necks I still have UNLOADED but have resized measure outside dia. of .3360" and the LOADED shells below the crimp measure .3382". I really don't want to pull bullets on crimped shells. I'll use them as is but want to keep the old distance to the lands I had before (which doesn't work with crimping).

Checking other .30 cal. die pins, they all mic about .306" which seems to be the standard for that caliber ! And yes, it was a FL resizer die I used. Redding makes good stuff. I don't think they're the problem.

I measured some new Win 300WSM brass outside neck dia is .334" I use a .334 bushing for my bushing die and I also when out and used a RCBS FL sizing die neck dia was .334" which holds the bullet tight. You may not be getting any spring back on the necks to hold those bullets which could be the die or brass.

On the other side of the coin I have had excellent neck tension on TSX and MRX bullets in my 338-378 Wby... No crimp and using a FL RCBS die with expander installed. That said, I haven't started to reload for my '06 with the TSX but will soon. If I have an issue with those then I will certainly keep this thread in mind.

Ken....

My advice, use the Lee factory crimp die for every caliber you reload. In my 375H&H, 30-06, and 243 Win. I have achieved moa performance with the TSX bullets. I'm not a big fan of Lee products, but the factory crimp dies WORK. They also seem to compensate for variations in case length. Great for a lazy guy like me!

Thanks Heat:

I'm probably going to solve this problem by getting a Type S die and tighter bushing. It just seems wrong to need to do that. More bad news for me too; when I re-sized the new brass without the expander ball in, it didn't reduce the neck at all (still .336") ! Might have to make a call to Redding about that !

Citori: Thanks for your imput but I really don't want to crimp at all and if I did, not where the grooves are !

Two other solutions to loose bullets: sealer

and annealing the case necks.

If you are worried about setting up your FL to size for sufficient tension to accommodate the TSX, then just get a second expander assembly. Polish one expander down .001-.002" and leave the other as is. Now you have die suitable for both TSX and conventional bullets.

Alternatively, you can load all bullets with a bit more neck tension. 0.003-.004" is not too much tension in a magnum.

I tried the Redding S-Type dies and did not much like the runout they created. Maybe you'll have more luck than I did. Alternatives might include a Lee Collet die or a Redding Competition Bushing die (which supports the case a bunch better during sizing than the Type-S does).

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by Gone Balllistic:
More bad news for me too; when I re-sized the new brass without the expander ball in, it didn't reduce the neck at all (still .336") ! Might have to make a call to Redding about that !

I was afraid of that. That leaves the brass, but looking at your measurements posted above, I don't think that's the problem. I don't load that caliber, but .338" loaded neck diameter would mean a mouth wall thickness of 15 thou, and that doesn't sound thin to me.

Not long ago, I had the occasion to use a new FL sizing die (not Redding) in .450/.400. Sized with the expander removed, the bullets were loose. Sized the same cases in my old dies and problem solved. That was the second time I've run into sizing dies that wouldn't reduce the neck enough to hold a bullet tight. It happens.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gone Balllistic:
Thanks Heat:

I'm probably going to solve this problem by getting a Type S die and tighter bushing. It just seems wrong to need to do that. More bad news for me too; when I re-sized the new brass without the expander ball in, it didn't reduce the neck at all (still .336") ! Might have to make a call to Redding about that !

Don't get me wrong when I say this but have you miked neck thickness?

Tom;
No, I don't have the equipment to check the brass thickness. Hard to believe new brass could go bad that quickly on only the second reload....I'm not loading to max pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:
Don't get me wrong when I say this but have you miked neck thickness?

In his second post above he states:

quote:

Originally posted by Gone Ballistic:
...and the LOADED shells below the crimp measure .3382".

He said that's with virgin brass. That would indicate a mouth wall thickness of .015", which sounds normal to me.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Gone Balllistic:
Tom;
No, I don't have the equipment to check the brass thickness. Hard to believe new brass could go bad that quickly on only the second reload....I'm not loading to max pressure.

Gene, My load rds are .336" and I have a good bullet grip with .002" using a .334 bushing. I just tried one of my fired cases in the RCBS die without the expander and case neck was .333" You may have a problem with the die and I sure call Redding and they should be able to tell you about neck dia with the expander be a good place to start. Well good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Gone Balllistic:
Thanks Heat:

I'm probably going to solve this problem by getting a Type S die and tighter bushing. It just seems wrong to need to do that. More bad news for me too; when I re-sized the new brass without the expander ball in, it didn't reduce the neck at all (still .336") ! Might have to make a call to Redding about that !

Citori: Thanks for your imput but I really don't want to crimp at all and if I did, not where the grooves are !

Built some dummy rounds last night for the '06 and had no problems. It was once fired Federal brass... Neck tension was fine after the first so I made no pre-post measurements before I built two more dummies...

Sorry I couldn't provide any assistance to your delema...

Ken....

I put about 40 rounds through my 9.3 X 74 mid week and am suffering "neck tension" as we speak!! Sorry couldn't resist. Thanks to your post I did check all my loads for this and all is well. Thanks for bringing it up.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

I appreciate all that have contributed to this post. I'm going to do some more testing and a couple calls and I'm going to get to the bottom of this. May take a couple more days - I'm a little busy. I'll post what I find out.

Thanks again

G.B.

I cannot offer any insight to your problem. One suggestion with barnes. Call and ask to speak to Ty Herring. He is one their top ballistic lab guy. I don't think there is a problem he has not seen. He has a solution for them all too. He has been extremely helpful when I have had issues with any barnes product.

Gone Ballistic, I didn't read with extreme care the entire thread, but I did read it. Having said that, have you tried seating a different brand bullet, and did you have good neck tension on another bullet type?

I have seen more than one die that didn't give sufficient neck tension, so it could be simply your die. Even if you expander is appropriately sized, if the neck portion of the die doesn't constrict your cases neck enough, than neck tension may be insufficient.

I would try a different bullet and see what neck tension is, that would point me at the bullets (the TSX's) if it was good on the other bullet type, or tell me it was probably the die.

One other thing I would try is different seating depths to see if the case might contact the bullet at different points relative to the grooves in the shank, and perhaps that would help.

Good luck--Don

I have loaded TSX bullets in 3 Cartridges, .338WM, 270Win, and 30-'06.
Never had a bullet tension problem with any that I recall.

The advice to try another style/brand of bullet in your dies is an excellent one.
I am surprised nobody thought of that before.

When you hear hoofbeats think horse, not zebra...

---Mike

Thanks Fish and Flip;

I've thought of that already and I'm going to test others too. I now believe it IS the die (at least partially) and some of the bullet type too. I've been loading 'X' bullets for at least 12 years and never had a problem before or with any other manufacturer's slugs.

I'm testing.....I'm testing ! AND I sent an e-mail off to Redding too ! Seems that their phone number is TOP SECRET or something.

Here you go Redding Phone (607) 753-3331 • FAX (607) 756-8445

I had a similar neck tension problem with 270 TSX. It was with Remington and Winchester brass. How I got around it was to neck anneal the cases then run the brass through the bullet seater die without any bullet seating insert then run through the full length sizer ( RCBS).
In the end I decided on Lapua brass. Np problems so far

I just got an email back from Redding - GREAT company - which explains some of the problems I've been having:

Hi (Gone Ballistic).

Thank you for using Redding Reloading Equipment. Wow, you’ve done your homework! Please send your sizing die body to the address below. We’ll replace it with a new one that has a tighter neck.

Winchester has been making their WSM case necks thinner recently and we’ve had to tighten up our dies to compensate.

Regards,

Patrick T. Ryan

Redding Reloading Equipment

Attn. Customer Service
1089 Starr Road
Cortland, NY 13045

I want to publically thank them for their super fast response to my questions and the way they take care of it.

G.B.